Adobe Lightroom CC and Lightroom Classic announced, D850 support for Lightroom 6 will come on October 26th


As already reported, today Adobe announced a new cloud-based Lightroom CC and rebranded the old Lightroom 7 to Lightroom Classic. The bad news is that D850 support for the old Lightroom 6 version will be added on October 26th:

What’s the Difference Between Lightroom and Lightroom Classic?

Going forward, the product you’ve known as Lightroom will be rebranded “Lightroom Classic CC”. Why change? We have introduced a new photography service that will now be called “Lightroom CC”. It is designed to be a cloud-based ecosystem of apps that are deeply integrated and work together seamlessly across desktop, mobile, and web. Lightroom Classic CC is designed for desktop-based (file/folder) digital photography workflows. It’s a well-established workflow solution that is distinct and separate from our new cloud-native service. By separating the two products, we’re allowing Lightroom Classic to focus on the strengths of a file/folder based workflow that many of you enjoy today, while Lightroom CC addresses the cloud/mobile-oriented workflow.

Nikon D850 support in Lightroom 6

Lightroom 6 is the last standalone version of Lightroom that can be purchased outside of a Creative Cloud membership. There will not be a Lightroom 7 perpetual offering. Lightroom 6 will remain for sale for an undetermined amount of time, but will no longer be updated with camera support or bug fixes after the end of 2017. Lightroom 6.13 with support for the Nikon D850 will be released on October 26, 2017.

Additional info is available here. Videos on the new Lightroom version can be found here. The current Adobe CC plan rates can be found here. You can get a free Lightroom trial on this page. The last three versions of Lightroom can be downloaded here (see also this link for more information). Adobe's website has also a dedicated page for Lightroom CC.

ACR 10 was also released with support for several new lenses for Nikon F-mount:

Nikon F KMZ Tair 11A 135mm F2.8
Nikon F SIGMA 14mm F1.8 DG HSM A017
Nikon F SIGMA 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM C017
Nikon F TAMRON 18-400mm F3.5-6.3 Di II VC HLD B028N
Nikon F Zeiss Milvus 1.4/35 ZF.2
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  • Just to make sure I understood this correctly – if you want Nikon D850 support today, you have to buy the cloud Lightroom CC version, otherwise you have to wait til the 26th? Seriously Adobe? What a cheap way to force people to buy into the CC subscription. I hope I am wrong here….

    • br0xibear

      That seems to be the case from what I’ve read.
      How many Lightroom users are now thinking about leaving Lightroom?
      Is a stand alone piece of software important?

      • I will be ok for a while once they update LR6 since I will not upgrade my D850 anytime soon… (I don’t care about the new Nikon mirrorless). I want to have a choice – they can still offer the CC version to people who are interested, I do not want to be forced to use it.

        • br0xibear

          Yeah, you’re right… looking into the near future, if I decide to get the D5s (Feb 2018), it won’t be supported in Lightroom 6…so now I’m thinking it might just be better to dump Lightroom and go with Capture One.
          I understand Adobe want to make money, but subscription only is going to push a lot of photographers away.

          • BVS

            I don’t know. Personally I wasn’t too fond of the way it was previously either – ridiculously expensive to buy the initial program and a couple hundred more each new version after that, or having to find friends with bootleg copies and then running key generator programs from random hackers.

            The barrier to entry is a lot lower now. Adobe just needs to better demonstrate that all the money they’re collecting now is benefiting the users.

            • IronHeadSlim

              I paid $1200 to get Master Suite 5.5. I upgraded roughly every two years. $50 a month works out to the same amount. I have all of the apps and I haven’t had much complaint with the regular upgrades.

              I am no more connected with Adobe now than with the Master Suite implementation. I sure want to own my camera outright and I do own the artwork produced with Adobe products but actually having a Master Suite box of disks isn’t as important as it once seemed. I know I am in the minority. Just my $.02.

            • PhilK

              Don’t forget how they track everything you do with the software since it is continuously connected to the “mothership”. And maybe track other things as well. 😉

            • No. It’s not constantly connected. You just need to sign in periodically to boot up the CC application. I use it on my laptop which is usually disconnected.

            • PhilK

              Tracking your activity does not require a constant connection. All of that data can be collected, batched and sent intermittently.

              In general, there are mountains of things that are being continuously tracked by software and hardware vendors these days – “under the hood” – that 99.5% of people are completely unaware-of.

            • IronHeadSlim

              You are incorrect as per Graxxor. But, nice try! : )

            • Thom Hogan

              Well, I have a sniffer on my Internet activity and watch it closely. What you wrote is not true as stated. “Everything you do” and “continuously connected” are huge over-reaches on your part.

              Adobe certainly does a lot of tracking, particularly related to license and version number, and they communicate computer information as part of that. They do more tracking than most, but not as obnoxious as some (I’m looking at you Microsoft).

            • PhilK

              I was making a generalization which is true more often than not. The vast majority of major software vendors do massive amounts of tracking and analytics of customer usage these days.

              As for what they track: if Adobe was minimally diligent they would be encrypting all or part of that traffic such that you could not see any details of what they are sending anyway. 😉

              Also as I commented to someone else a few minutes ago: the “continuously connected” part is not a requirement. It’s just commonly used that way these days. Anything can be collected, batched and sent intermittently. Encrypted as well. I have a bit of experience in this field. 😉

            • halo9

              Exactly one of the reasons I’m not keen on Windows 10 and just saw that the new Lightroom CC requires windows 10 as a minimum. It will not install on my Win7 installation but Lightroom Classic CC runs fine.

            • Honestly, I have no respect for people who were stealing the software. It’s the main reason Adobe went to a subscription model. But the sub model is a better deal now for the reasons you said, lower initial entry cost. It helps separate people who are serious from those who are not.

          • They are still going to make record revenue – I am sure they did their calculations already.

            • ZoetMB

              That’s true. They beat Wall Street expectations and CC revenue is up 28%. Users like myself might hate that we can’t buy a “pay one price” unit of Photoshop anymore, but from a business and financial perspective, Adobe did the right thing and based upon their sales, users overall either didn’t mind or if they did mind, bought the subscription anyway. As of this moment, the stock is up 11.65% on an otherwise down day. I’m still using CS6, but at some point, I’m going to have to bite the bullet, especially if I upgrade to the D850.

          • Hans J

            CaptureOne is the way to go.

            • Dave

              I spent a few days with it, I could not get into it. My work requires a lot of photoshop compositing though, lightroom I use solely for photo organization. Capture 1 did not seem like a good photo organization tool, and not well integrated with photoshop.

            • Those are some of the issues I’m seeing with my eval copy of C1 right now. Still testing it out.

            • br0xibear

              If the people at Phase One have any sense they should be marketing the hell out of Capture One, give discounts and show how it’s an option for those unhappy with the latest Adobe news.

            • TurtleCat

              They did that with CC first became ‘mandatory’ so I expect they’ll do it again.

            • ninpou_kobanashi

              I have my copy of C1 for free (Sony user) and I don’t use it since it’s UI is clunky.

              I tried the Nikon software, but it’s slower than molasses @ the North Pole.

            • Thom Hogan

              You didn’t notice all the “fall” updates everyone was doing? Virtually every raw converter company has been trying to take advantage of the death of standalone LR in the last month. Unfortunately, none are really quite all there yet with something that completely matches what LR does. But some are close.

            • br0xibear

              Which one’s do you think are are close ?

            • Thom Hogan

              The problem is “close at what?” Each seems to have its strengths and weaknesses, and they’re quite different at that.

            • “Close” in terms of parity with processing capability and flexibility is of key interest to me. I’m happy to manage my own catalogues.

            • Thom Hogan

              I’ll have an answer to that soon, I hope. But my current take is that there are several alternatives that give you near parity (and sometimes better results) for processing of images.

            • I’m evaluating C1 right now, but it has some issues that LR doesn’t have. Maybe it’s trading one set of problems for another? Cost is another thing, Phase One wants more for C1 than Adobe does for BOTH Lightroom and Photoshop. I can’t give up Photoshop so now have to pay more than double to have C1 and Photoshop? Tough pill to swallow.

          • A. F.O.

            it is not about “make money”…..it is about possibly record revenue!…ever!

        • Ric of The LBC

          DXO Optics Pro is another option.

          • TurtleCat

            I forgot about Iridient as well that some are a big fan of.

          • CERO

            As someone who uses DXO optics a lot.. agree.
            I really like the workflow of this program.

            • Ric of The LBC

              I get notices for upgrade specials for about $80 plus the FilmPacks. I should do it. Still have v7 but not installed it in quite sometime.

        • A. F.O.

          people should try another software; there’s some really good ones besides the LR and PS…giants like Google and Apple should have come with alternatives.

      • KC

        I left the Adobe subscription model some time ago. I use Affinity Photo, Designer, and LR 6 perpetual. (I will switch to Affinity DAM, if and when they release it)

        There is not a chance in hell that I would allow my IP to be stored in some company’s cloud, plus like many that post here I have many TBs of image files that I am not going to pay to store on Adobe’s cloud.

        I suspect smartphone based photographers are going to be fine with LR CC, most others will not…

        • Scott M.

          100% sure that you store all your TBs of photos on YOUR system not in “the cloud.” I have been using CreativeCC subscription since it came out and could not be more pleased with the value and quality. The cloud refers to all the apps, type fonts, stock photos, plugins etc. I guess you could store some projects on the cloud but I have not noticed anything negative about that. If you are worried they will lose your photo files or something, you may be worried about nothing. I have Photoshop 6, which stills updates but never even use it anymore. I may start back with LRcc with the new changes. I have been doing copyright filing and it seems like a smarter way to do large batches.

          • TurtleCat

            The change is with Lightroom CC, not with Lightroom Classic CC. For now Classic CC works the way you are saying but in the future it’s clear that they have intention of decommissioning the Classic CC in favor of in-cloud-only CC.

            • KC

              Exactly, it is clear that Adobe sees storing CUSTOMER data as a significant revenue source (I wonder what it costs to store between 4 and 7 TBs of images?) and that LR Classic CC will be decommissioned as soon as possible.

              I had hoped that the Affinity DAM would at least be in beta by now, but I am hearing that the beta might be two years away. 🙁

              Like Peter I will be OK with LR6 perpetual for a while, but I will eventually switch completely away from Adobe…

              Scott, I am delighted that you are happy with CC… …but have you ever used LR with LARGE Raw images? If so you know that you have plenty of time to go get a cup of coffee while LR grinds away on them…

            • TurtleCat

              It doesn’t cost that much to store a lot of data since it’s not going to be a fast access data. If you do pricing on Amazon you’ll find out how cheap storage really is but I’m sure there will be a tremendous markup.

              That’s unfortunate about the Affinity DAM. I first read about it 2 years ago and it was expected around now. The market will slip past them if they have to wait 2 more years.

            • KC

              That is the rumor about Affinity DAM, I really hope I am wrong!!!

            • well – the new LR Classic CC is nice and very fast with D850 NEFs. Big difference comparing to previous version.

            • Thom Hogan

              That won’t fly, though Adobe is on the runway trying to take off.

              Simply put, it’s too soon to have a cloud-only storage system. Not enough bandwidth, for one. For two, it increases perceived costs immensely (it might not actually increase costs as much as most people think, though).

              Think about the wildlife shooter who’s off in the woods with no Internet access for a couple of weeks. How’s Lightroom CC work for them? ;~)

              But anyone who shoots on high megapixel count cameras with any volume would run into the same problem: bandwidth.

              Adobe has this unusual problem: they don’t own a smartphone like Apple and Google do (and Microsoft used to ;~). That means that the future of “photos on demand everywhere” is tough for them because they have no direct access to the device, they have to convince you to use CC instead of Apple iCloud Photos or Google Photos, and pay extra for it.

            • TurtleCat

              It’s definitely too soon for people on this forum but I could easily see it (if they can convince people) for device-only users with lower sized jpegs as their primary photo storage. That’s where they may get initial traction and work their way from there.

        • ZoetMB

          You do not have to store your photos in the Cloud. They can sit on your machine just as they always did. You don’t even always have to be connected to the network to use CC.

      • Allen_Wentz

        I left Adobe when the forced CC on users, and always used Aperture since before LR.

        Now I am looking for a new DAM approach. Apple’s Photos app seems like it may work once I figure out how to keep good track of fat NEFs without putting them in the cloud. The advantage of Photos is that I can see all files on any device (iPhone, iPad, MBP).

        • Thom Hogan

          Apple really fumbled an advantage they had. Slowly but surely Photos is bringing more and more to the plate every release, and the fact that it has so much plug-in versatility is extending what you can do with it very fast. Indeed, the former Aperture developers have a plug-in.

          • TurtleCat

            And popular tools like Affinity Photo also have plug ins for it. The only downside is the plugins only work on the Mac and not on the devices.

      • maddog

        I decided to move away from adobe as soon as they started with the cc and monthly subscription stuff. I might suggest people try ON1 raw. Pretty good and they seem to really want to do right by photographers.

        • A. F.O.

          Adobe is getting greedy. But not with my money.

        • Thom Hogan

          Well, I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from folk that ON1 is essentially a subscription now. Just yearly, not monthly.

      • A. F.O.

        i’m using Affinity photo!…50 euro.
        Adobe can make their record revenue without my money.

      • Yes, standalone is important to me.

        I want software that maintains full functionality after I’ve paid for it. I don’t want something that just becomes a glorified photo viewing app if I don’t want to keep paying for it, or find myself in circumstances where I’m unable to continue paying for it.

        I want software I can use without an internet connection if needs be. My home connection is reasonably fast, but in many parts of Australia, internet is still painfully slow, particularly in the more remote areas I sometimes visit. Even just an ‘authentication’ session might fail, or take an annoying time to conclude. Also, I typically ‘connect’ every time I start my computer, but I want that to be a choice, not something forced on me. Incredible as it seems, sometimes I don’t care about LOLCats and just want to edit photos.

        • Thom Hogan

          Well, your first want I agree with and it doesn’t exist with Adobe now.

          Your second want is handled just fine by Adobe, especially if you’re on an annual plan.

          • The second want may be “handled just fine” for now. How long before ‘Classic’ vaporises too, and it’s all just ‘CC’, forcing everything to the Adobe servers? I’m sure I’m worrying too much, and Classic will be available “indefinitely”…

            • Thom Hogan

              Well that’s an unknown. With ANY software, whether perpetual license or subscription. Look at what happened with Nikon Capture.

              Software changes over time. It always has, it always will. To a large degree the people that bought into LR early have had almost a decade of reasonable stability, with performance and features basically being things that were added over time but which didn’t really destroy the workflow. Whether we have two more years, four more years, or ten more years of that, I don’t know.

              That does bring up my main problem with Adobe’s subscription program: that the software decommissions pieces of itself when the subscription ends. Thus, if Adobe did decide to drop Classic and just go with the New Mobile, that would cause an immediate problem for all LR Classic users.

              I think we need an assurance from Adobe that if they abandon Classic, that they will not decommission the Develop module. That would solve a lot of angst.

              What I suspect will happen is that the New Mobile (LR CC) will gain the Classic features, though.

            • El Aura

              Looking at feature comparisons, two of the things the new LR CC is missing are user-selectable file and folder placement and naming and inability to split a library over multiple drives. In that it seems to mirror Apple’s Photos app. I am not sure those things can be added easily to the new LR CC without interfering with its synching and cloud capabilities.

            • Thom Hogan

              Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forward. I can’t imagine that Adobe doesn’t have a plan for collection/album/folder/whatever in CC. 1TB or more of images just all thrown together is not a good plan, even with Adobe Sensei doing automatic tagging on them.

            • El Aura

              Collections/albums exist in the new LR CC, but those are non-exclusve organisational tools (ie, an image can be in multiple collections or in no collections at all). If you are disciplined, you can mirror a traditional folder hierarchy with that.

              But a priori, the library is a big soup of all your images from which you can fish out subsets. With the built-in metadata of images (date, time, and increasingly location) and the rigorous tagging of images with at least project/customer that professional photographers hopefully apply, it’s easy to create the custom nets (smart collections) that fish out exactly what you want from the bowl. But eventually, I would think that professional photographers need to have a way to create separate tanks.

            • Mike

              Adobe can say whatever they want. How can anyone believe them? They once said there would always be a stand-alone LR. So they can “assure” us today that Classic CC will be around but now we know better…. don’t put all your eggs in one basket and start learning another software in parrallel to LR.

      • Chris

        I don’t see the point of leaving. Classic CC is still alive. Just don’t choose that cloud LR plan.

      • Ken Aisin

        I left. I was supposed to be ok with my copy of Lightroom 6 for maybe another few years. But out of anger, I purchased a copy of Alien Skin Exposure X3 for $149. So easy to use, and well worth the money. It’s got D850 support too. Bye Adobe. You won’t be missed.

    • I’m currently on the process of learning Capture One, bye Adobe LR, No more money for you!

      • TurtleCat

        I keep trying C1 but the file management is terrible if you don’t manage photos by project. They really need to let you have a loose file system based folder structure.

        • Hans J

          C1 is way superior to LR. Just take the time to learn it well and you’ll see.

          • TurtleCat

            But I greatly dislike the file management.

            • Hans J

              Interesting, I’m the other way around hate the LR file management but LOVE the C1. guess you found the software for you.

            • TurtleCat

              I had said earlier if you were an Apple Aperture user you’d find Capture1 pretty natural. I didn’t like Aperture’s file management so it makes sense I wouldn’t like C1’s. I started with Bridge before LR was around and had my own file system before Bridge. I’m not going to rearrange 15 years worth of photos for the sake of C1.

          • Vince Vinnyp

            I use both, C1 for tethering some foliage and Caucasian skin tones. But no way I could use it for file management. It’s also part of a relatively small private company which is ripe to be sold.Always a concern.

            • peter w

              The idea of not just buying Capture One, but also a Phase One camera with some lenses…, no not just that, the entire company…
              ;).

        • Lane Shurtleff

          Anyone still using ANY Adobe product, LR or PS is not getting thew full benefit of NEF files. Capture 1 uses the same core converter software as Nikon in their own software. Open a file in LR straight from the camera, then open it in C1 or Nikon NX etc. The preset adjustments and quality of the image are night and day. I had built a strong workflow many years ago in Bridge, but when I saw the light (pun intended) I immediately switched to C1 have have never been sorry. Yes, it takes a bit to adjust to the workflow, but after seeing how much more detail and color accuracy I have with C1 it’s an easy choice.

          • Allan

            “Capture 1 uses the same core converter software as Nikon in their own software.”

            Do you have a reference for that?

            Maybe the “core” is the same, but I suspect Nikon adds refinements and produces the Nikon converter.

            • I think it’s just speculation that they use some similar core features. C1 does look better on import, I totally agree with that. However, I don’t think it’s due to any collaboration with Nikon. They take a more heavy handed approach to editing (more sharpening, etc.) than Lightroom on import so the files are closer to a finished product.

              Several people have conducted tests that show you can get the same results from both programs, but C1 is faster for most people. That might be reason enough to switch, but saying it produces better images is not true based on what I have read.

            • PhilK

              I cannot speak from experience, but if the suggestion is that the Nikon S/W uses the same “core converter” as Capture One, I’d be much more inclined to think that Nikon is doing the licensing of that, not the other way around.

              Nikon’s software development efforts are weak at best. For a complex component like a raw conversion engine it would be quite plausible to me that they just license that basic component from another company (perhaps with some customizations) and build a product around it.

            • If Nikon were licensing the raw conversion engine I’m fairly sure Adobe would license it.

            • PhilK

              Well “SDK” refers to “software development kit”, which usually means the specifications on how to interoperate with another vendor’s product.

              Not the “raw conversion engine” per-se.

              For example, Linux driver developers by-and-large need open-source or free specifications from hardware vendors in order to write drivers to make that hardware work in Linux – because they are not going to be paying big sums of money to companies simply for the specifications on how to interface to the hardware. Nor are they interested in a bunch of intellectual-property restrictions that prevent them from freely distributing the work they create for said hardware as per open-source philosophy.

              Some hardware vendors support open-source software by providing these details or SDKs for free (without things like patent encumberment or requirements to sign NDAs and so on), others do not. So those latter products end up with no drivers for open-source software unless the vendor writes it themselves.

              In Nikon’s case, if they want to ensure the broadest support in the market for their cameras (including but not limited to the NEF RAW format), it is in their best interest to provide such SDKs and specifications either free or at a reasonable cost. The only reason not to do this is if they want to try to make money off of their own competitive product. (EG, a RAW converter tool)

              Given Nikon’s lack of S/W competitiveness in general, I think that latter scenario is not a very good strategic choice for them.

            • Nikon should give every software company the full spec to their NEF files and how to accurately convert them. Then get out of the software business, they are completely useless at it.

            • Thom Hogan

              After the D2x white balance encryption fiasco, Nikon was forced to license a “mini SDK,” which mainly just tells you what the white balance data means. You can call the Nikon black box for conversion with the full SDK, but you have virtually no control over it and it isn’t documented in any useful way that I can see. Last time I looked, that part wasn’t threaded, either.

            • Christian Handl

              Same for me, C1 is much more agressive with their basic settings (sharpening, colors,..), it is like the difference between standard to landscape profile. Keep in mind Lightroom is always on “standard” profile which is quite flat. But you can get to the same “Quality” in both programs. And why people complain about the subscription model, it is for me actually a little cheaper than the updates I had to pay for LR and PS before. And with about 50 000 pictures to manage (text, keywords) LR is still a very good solution. It also works very well with PS for panoramas and stacked shots. And also Cmyk workflow is good in PS and needed for my kind of work.

        • peter w

          You can use sessions it is coupled to your directories

          • TurtleCat

            I’ve experimented with it but I didn’t like how that worked either. It wasn’t as smooth an experience as I was hoping for compared to what I’m used to.

      • I will eventually probably do the same.

        • But there are now TWO versions of Lightroom 🙂

      • ninpou_kobanashi

        C1 != LR. I’m biased, but that program sucks in terms of usability.

      • Nyarlathotep

        I made the transition a few years ago. Mostly because I don’t like their CC offering. Despite C1’s short comings with file management and some lost features, I prefer the default color (no more default Adobe orange color cast), and the controls I have grown to like. I find I spend less time editing in C1 than I did in LR.

      • You don’t need Photoshop? I couldn’t do my edits in LR or C1 alone. Adobe still gets my money, Photoshop is irreplaceable for me.

        • A. F.O.

          that is ok with me.

        • Piooof

          I have PS CS6. It is enough for my needs, it’s already paid for, and will not vaporize. The only downside is that you need to be cautious with OS upgrades (so far, so good). As far as LR is concerned, now I guess it’ll be C1 or DxO. Or maybe even Darktable…

          • peter w

            I have CS 2 running 😉
            Use it like 4 times a year. But it was worth the 40 euro.

          • ZoetMB

            I’m still using CS6 as well, but I’m also still using a D800. AFAIK, we can’t update ACR so if we buy a newer camera, what will we do because ACR won’t read the NEF files, right?

            • Piooof

              Likely not indeed. Sometimes people have luck tweaking file headers, but this kind if hack wouldn’t be a satisfying solution anyway. So a future camera will need another raw converter. Luckily there are many options around, some very good. Everything after that step can be done in 16bit-TIFF by PS. Of course the big plus of Lightroom was its tight integration of DAM, editing and exporting, but with Adobe’s last twist I’m confident that some software editors will now try to compete frontally with LR with an expanded function set (something that was hopeless a month ago).

    • And LR 6 will not receive any updates after 2017. You have to go subscription or stay with 6. Or go to Capture 1.

      • I think I will be fine for a while – no plans to buy a new camera after the D850 🙂

        • Scott M.

          Ha ha. Good one Peter.

          • true story… 🙂

            • The 200-500 is an awesome lens for the money. I don’t use long glass enough to justify the cost of the exotic primes, but happy to have 500mm when I need it. Totally worth it, it’s cheaper than any of my trinity lenses.

            • I agree, but if you have the 300mm f/4, the 200-500 doesn’t make sense, at least to me but then again a teleconverter is $500, for another $700 you can get the lens…

            • You are right, most would buy one or the other. You made the wrong choice 😉

            • Yes, I am ok with that 🙂

            • TurtleCat

              I’d say you made the right choice. I have the 300 f4 PF and it’s much sharper than any zoom, even the 200-500. With the 1.4 TC you’re just fine. It’s not as flexible focal length wise but much lighter, easier to handle, and every bit as sharp and sharper.

            • No question the 300 is great, but using it with a TC is a pain in the ass for some subjects. I shoot eagles, and often use the full range of 200-500. Good luck maintaining tracking on a subject as you add a TC 🙂

              Both have their place, I just prefer the flexibility of the zoom.

            • TurtleCat

              I used to use the zooms all the time, the 200-400 VR, 150-500 Sigma, 150-600 Tamron and others. In the end I was always at the long end. So I guess whatever else I’m fine with the lack of flexibility. But for most lenses I’ll trade off for the flexibility of zoom.

        • KnightPhoto

          And that means you can focus on lenses Peter 😉 What’s on your horizon for lenses you want?

          105E and 70-200E anyone 😉

          • I am really looking forward to a new 400mm or 500mm f/5.6… I want some long reach without the weight (and the extra cash).

            • Alexander Gray

              Not going for the 200-500mm F5.6?

            • I was thinking about it, I have the 300mm f/4, maybe get an extension tube.

            • A. F.O.

              I will buy one 200-500mm by the end of 2017 🙂

            • Did I say extension tube in my previous comment? I mean a teleconverter…

            • peter w

              With a D800 and 300 F4 you have allready quite a zoom-range until you bump at like 12 MP that a D300 would make you happy with.
              Add a tc14…

            • yes 🙂

            • Piooof

              A reflex 500 mm f/8 ? 😉

            • Spy Black

              I wish someone would make high quality AF mirror lenses in the 500-1000mm range. Not sure if that’s possible (both quality and AF), but it seems like such lenses could have a market waiting for them if they happened.

              Mirror lenses for mirrorless cameras, nyuck nyuck…

            • PhilK

              I can only stand catadioptric lenses if all the subject is at infinity focus. Otherwise the bokeh “donuts” drive me nuts.

            • Thom Hogan

              You just need a “donut to full circle” software converter ;~).

            • PhilK

              Tell me more. 😀

        • Laud Farter

          Nikon Mirrorless?

          • Unless Nikon makes a miracle, I really don’t care about mirrorless. Maybe I will change my mind one day. Now, if they make a digital Nikon SP rangefinder, I will be interested 🙂

      • Wedding_Shooter

        Is lightroom 6 classic or what this is overly confusing. Are they going to update classic for new cameras ever?

        • TurtleCat

          Lightroom 6 is Lightroom 6. What would be called Lightroom 7 is now Lightroom Classic CC. So Classic CC will be updated for now but Lightroom 6 will be abandoned at the turn of the year.

          • Wedding_Shooter

            Lightroom 7 is classic cc will continue to be updated or not though?

            • TurtleCat

              Classic CC will be updated for some time. Probably several years although I’m going to guess the features will be minor from here on out.

        • ninpou_kobanashi

          6 is “Classic Desktop”. Same as LR CC Classic.
          New LR CC is cloud based.

          • Piooof

            +1 for the last §.
            My experience with subscription services is that it ends up being a rip-off: the software is released before all severe bugs are dealt with, because hey, it’ll be fixed soon. You end up keeping your subscription simply to eventually get a corrected version (that finally comes with a new set of fresh bugs… maybe impacting your workflow less — or more). And so on… That’s what happens when software quality has become an aim rather than a requirement.
            In contrast, when the customers have to pay a large amount of hard-earned cash to acquire your app, then you have a big incentive to polish it properly in order to avoid bad press.

          • PhilK

            I’ve been making the same comment for years about S/W vendors in recent years using updates as a “crutch”. Silly users still seem to think downloading an update to a terribly rushed and flawed product is a really really cool ‘gift’ each time they have to do it.

            As if.

    • Albert

      I will get version 6.13 of the LR stand-alone and start my search for an alternative of Lightroom. I accept no subscription payment system. I just want to buy and use a standalone, no cloud based editing SW.
      Adobe lost a loyal customer.

      • Roger S

        Ditto. What a revolting development. I have no use for subscription-based or cloud-based software. I’ve been a good Adobe customer for years, but they’re losing me too. I did have good success with Capture-NX in the past, so that’s one option, as perhaps is Capture One. I assume that other options will come along for those looking for standalone software.

    • D700s

      Just updated and LRCC does not detect the D850. I guess that comes in an update for subscribers on the 27th also.

      • somebody already said earlier that he can open the D850 files with the latest upgrade…

        • D700s

          Files yes, tether no.

    • Adam Pawlak

      We are talking about an 8 day difference. I think most of us will survive without it till then?

      • My point is that I believe this was done on purpose to push D850 owners to buy into the CC model, the D850 is one of the most popular cameras ever and Adobe still has no support 2 months after the announcement? I don’t buy that.

        • Allen_Wentz

          My recall is that support from Adobe was often slow when a new Nikon came out. They do have to reverse engineer, which is why (IMO) the color/IQ from ACR is less than ideal.

          • Lane Shurtleff

            YUP!! Adobe refuses to pay Nikon for the SDK software to properly manage NEF files. I posted earlier how Adobe reverse engineers Nikon RAW files only after the camera has ben released. Asa company with such a HUGE profit margin now with the CC subscription service this it UNACCEPTABLE. I’ve been using C1 for years and never regretted the effort to adjusting to a new workflow.

            • PhilK

              I wonder how much Nikon charges for this SDK.

              Because with the money Adobe is making these days, that has to be chump-change for them.

              If Nikon is over-charging for it, shame on them.

              If Adobe is using that as a reason not to do it the right way, with official Nikon support, shame on them.

            • IndyReader

              The SDK is free from what I can tell; BUT Nikon per the usual hasn’t released one for the D850 as yet:

              https://sdk.nikonimaging.com/apply/

              So meanwhile Adobe does the reverse engineering dance …

            • PhilK

              Thanks for the info.

            • Thom Hogan

              No. First, the SDK is free. But it has licensing issues and technology and documentation and support issues, which is why Adobe and others aren’t using it. They use the mini-SDK, which gives them the decrypted EXIF data.

              Adobe might also use the full SDK for tethering. Unclear about that. But the full D850 SDK isn’t available yet AFAIK.

          • A. F.O.

            perhaps….but fot me Peter could be right…..profits and more profits for them (Adobe).

        • monocolor

          It could be the standalone updates are performed by a different team and they require more time to test than CC.

    • It’s one more week, they are not withholding the update for six months.

    • Spy Black

      I think people forget there’s other options out there besides LR and C1. I don’t really know any of them, but I suppose now’s a good time to trial different products to see if any of them can work for me, or you, whoever you may be. It’s always difficult to get out of one’s comfort zone, especially when you’re working professionally regularly and having to produce product, but I think we’re doing ourselves a disservice if we don’t give ourselves options in life.

      • Ric of The LBC

        DXO. I used it a bit, Version 7 it think. It was OK, did great lens corrections. I was also using Capture NX so I stuck with that. Went to Lightroom 5 a few years ago after it was clear that there would be no more NX updates.

        I’ll stick with LR5. No plans for a body upgrade. Last camera syndrome. Df for life!!!!!

        • Spy Black

          I tried DxO, I got it because of all the hype around the PRIME noise reduction engine. It turned out to suck (at least, the NR engine). So far LR still has the best NR engine for RAW files that I’ve worked with, although I haven’t worked with all the RAW NR processors out there. There was nothing else about DxO that attracted me.

    • Spy Black

      I’m not entirely sure, but it appears that if you have the $9.99/month Photoshop/LR combo plan, it just got jacked up to $19.99/month. If so that’s it for me, I’m out.

      • you know that once they get enough people on the cloud, the price will go up again and again…

        • Spy Black

          Apparently that is not the case now, the $9.99 plan remains for the time being.

          • PhilK

            I will never lie to you.

            I guarantee you that I will give you the biggiest, most fabulous’est, wonderful’est experiences of your life, forever.

            Trust me. 😀

      • Thom Hogan

        Yes, Adobe has made it tough to figure out. But no, the photography plan as we know it is still US$9.99 month.

    • monocolor

      I don’t know where my post went.. it disappeared.. so I’ll try again..

      The team that handles updates for the standalone product is probably separate from the CC update team. The standalone team might have just needed more time to ensure their release was stable. So there might not be some clandestine undertones to this scenario.

      • Like I said in a previous comment, I just don’t trust Adobe and this is the bigger problem they have to deal with as a company.

    • Thom Hogan

      No, that’s not correct.

      Lightroom Classic CC supports the D850 as of yesterday
      Lightroom CC supports the D850 as of today (it wasn’t available through most of yesterday to the installer)
      Lightroom 6.13 will support the D850 on 10/26

      But nevertheless, there are deep implications in how Adobe is posturing everything. It’s hard to find Lightroom Classic CC on the Adobe Web site because they’re pushing Lightroom CC.

      • They have been hiding their stand-alone LR installation for a very long time. At one point I remember I had to make a post on PhotoRumors on how to find it because I was getting so many emails with questions. I understand the desire for better profit margins, but what Adobe is doing is sneaky and this is bothering me more than the fact that they killed the standalone version. I just don’t trust Adobe.

        • Thom Hogan

          I don’t see how it’s sneaky. It’s predictable. The threat to Adobe is Apple and Google, who enroll people in such plans automatically, provide basic cloud storage, and who have software that works to modify images (if you haven’t looked at Photos recently, particularly with extensions, you haven’t seen the real threat).

          I’ve guessed for awhile that Adobe would stay in the standalone business only through Elements. That seemed to be clear several years ago.

          The disturbing thing isn’t the disappearance of standalone LR, it’s the total emphasis on LR CC (over Classic CC). Try finding Classic CC on Adobe’s pages. It’s there, but buried behind the new CC, and with less emphasis. That’s the question everyone should be asking: does this bode the near end for LR Classic as we know it? I don’t think so, at least not for a generation or two, but the fact that CC is not a subset of Classic CC is disturbing.

          • Thom, I totally agree. Just like the stand alone version of LR has taken a back seat once CC was released, I worry that my primary image editing and cataloging tool for the last 8 years will also be relegated to the scrap heap.

            I think there is room in the market for advanced tools (like LR, C1, and any of the new raw converters sprouting up) plus easier tools for the casual photographer. I still use Picasa to index all of my exported jpg files. Partly so my wife can find photos easily (can’t with LR), and partly because it’s face detect system is light years ahead of LR.

            If the new Lightroom CC is a dumbed down version for the cloud, cell phones, etc (which it is today) it will be the the end of the line for me. I’m also not willing to wait 3 or 4 major releases for it to get features that I need (there is a lot missing compared to Classic) while the tool I use languishes.

            Finally, this is almost like an April Fool’s joke:
            The tool you all know and use, Lightroom CC, is now called Lightroom Classic CC.
            We have an all new tool to announce, it’s called Lightroom CC.
            Awesome right?

            Who at Adobe thought that was a good idea. There are 7 billion pages on the internet talking about “Lightroom CC”, and anyone searching on tips on how to use “Lightroom CC” will be trying to do things just not possible in the “new” version. What a joke.

  • Bill M

    So the “new” Lightroom 7 is called Lightroom Classic CC? I have never been a fan of subscription programs and have avoided Adobe’s CC for some time now (in fact, I still use Photoshop CS4 with success) but I have always tried to keep my Lightroom up to date; however, I never upgraded to LR6 because I have not required it in my workflow. That being said, for the D850 I will require it so hopefully they will offer an upgrade for my Lightroom 5 to this new Lightroom Classic CC.

    • That’s what it looks like. They really have forced us into subscriptions.

      • Nyarlathotep

        This is really the deal killer for me. I just don’t need one more monthly charge service, especially from Adobe. I still use PS CS5, but after that, I had had enough, moved to C1

    • Thom Hogan

      You need to find a standalone package of LR 6 ASAP, before they all disappear off shelves. That will get you D850 support in a standalone product (when 6.13 is released next week).

      Other than that, you choice would be to use DNG 10 to convert NEFs to DNGs and use your current software. That’s about it.

  • Monty Rakusen

    @Adobe
    What? No #tethered capture for the #D850 in the new update? Youve had months to do this while I pay your suscription. #shameonyou

    • NikMan

      there are tethering capabilities in LR? never would have thought to use something like LR to tether, …. you know, C1, tether all day, … and night, …. if you are in to that kind of thing 😉

      • TurtleCat

        Yes, it has tethering. It’s OK but not great.

      • Lane Shurtleff

        Adobe only cares about volume sales now, not “photo enthusiasts”. Adobe are also still stuck on an archaic file system software structure form the 1990’s. GET WITH THE PROGRAM ADOBE!! It all needs a major overhaul.

    • #…
      @…
      #….
      @…

      #LOL #The #World #we #live #in

    • Joe Russo

      WHAT? They didn’t enable tethered capture? TF is this Adobe???

    • Thom Hogan

      Are you sure they had months? To my knowledge, Nikon hasn’t created a D850 SDK yet, and I doubt Adobe had real early access to a D850 with enough support to figure out how to tether it.

      We need to put blames where they belong. I’m not an Adobe fan to speak of, but I don’t think this is Adobe’s fault.

  • Isaac Fulford

    There will be many many mad people when they read this. Subscription based or else from adobe will only make other standalone products more attractive in the long term.

    • Thom Hogan

      Incorrect. The fact that Adobe moved to SaS (software as service) successfully, that Microsoft has also done so, and others as well, that tells us that software firms in the future will look for guaranteed, recurring, and predictable revenue.

      Those of us with long Silicon Valley software backgrounds know the whole story. The transition to monolithic packages, then low-cost knockoff software, then subscription, was something that was predicted by many.

      The problem is that software development is costly and never-ending. Platforms and requirements keep changing underneath you, and users demand additional function/features/performance. You need a revenue stream to afford that development.

      Like magazines, software has the dreaded “renewal” issue. For every user that doesn’t update, you’ll need another user to take their place, which is a marketing expense to acquire. SaS makes that process more predictable and less costly. But it’s not exactly something that older customers embrace.

    • ZoetMB

      If you look at Adobe’s revenue, people are indeed buying in (whether they like it or not). CC sales are up 28% and the stock is up over 11% today after Adobe announced higher than expected earnings. The fact is that $10 a month is $240 over two years which is about what I paid to update Photoshop whenever they offered a special deal in about that same timeframe (other times it was far more expensive). Personally, I’d rather stick with standalone (I’m still using CS6), but the subscription is not the outrage that people make it out to be. Microsoft has done the same thing with Office 360.

      On the other hand, if someone came out with a competitive standalone package that has the major features of ACR and PS, accepts the same plug-ins and a great UI, I’d use it. But I’ve found that others that I’ve tried either don’t look good, are missing functions that I need or aren’t intuitive to use.

  • TurtleCat

    So, basically, Adobe lied when CC first came out and said Lightroom would continue to be perpetual. What they meant to say is it have one more version of perpetual. Well, I’ve got a permanent license to LR 6 so once my CC runs out next month that’s it. No more Adobe for me.

    • Correct, I remember that. I will do a post about it. I have to find the original link first.

      • TurtleCat

        It took some searching but I found it: http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2013/05/lightroom-and-the-creative-cloud.html

        Q. Will Lightroom become a subscription only offering after Lightroom 5?

        A. Future versions of Lightroom will be made available via traditional perpetual licenses indefinitely.

        • Mr_Miyagi

          If you like your Lightroom, you’ll be able to keep your Lightroom.

          • br0xibear

            But if you buy any new camera after 31st Jan 2017, your stand alone version of Lightroom won’t support it, and you’ll be forced to go subscription if or buy/use another piece of software.
            They could still have a stand alone one, without the latest bells and whistles of the subscrition version, and charge people a small amount for a RAW update to support future cameras ?

            • “They could still have a stand alone one, without the latest bells and whistles of the subscrition version, and charge people a small amount for a RAW update to support future cameras?”
              Wish nikon did that with capture nx2.

            • A. F.O.

              No they won’t. the profits are in the “clouds”.

            • ZoetMB

              The profit isn’t in the Cloud. The profit is in the consistent revenue offered by subscription based payments. Payment for Cloud storage is an extra revenue stream to Adobe, but there’s no requirement to use it.

            • Thom Hogan

              Not exactly. You could continue to use LR 6.13 and run new camera raw files through the free DNG converter first and be happy.

            • br0xibear

              Well, any version of Lightroom from 3 to 6 will support DNG files…the discussion was about RAW files.

        • Allen_Wentz

          “indefinitely” to Adobe may mean one week.

          • TurtleCat

            And “versions” plural means one.

        • Vince Vinnyp

          Indefinite does not mean forever…

          • TurtleCat

            No, but versions and indefinite certainly were intended to convey more than one version (Lightroom 6)

        • Thom Hogan

          And indefinite means “for a long time, no end defined.” The “in” is a modifier of “definite.”

          FWIW, I don’t think Adobe was being disingenuous with that statement back in 2013. They didn’t know when, if ever, the end would be. At least not in the product teams. I think that the CEO that pushed the whole SaS thing in the first place had another idea, and the success of CC for Adobe basically means what he wants to happen now will happen.

    • Nyarlathotep

      Big surprise, right? Adobe killed customer service years ago. A once great customer service oriented company, now might as well be in the same sentence as Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, etc…

      • TurtleCat

        That’s something I would agree with regardless. Their customer support has been abyssmal for years. Absolutely terrible for the price/complexity of the products.

    • Bill M

      That’s it, I remember reading that from Adobe as well. Autodesk did this a while ago to their customers, but the majority of Autodesk product users were businesses and it makes more sense from a large business standpoint, but trying to apply the same subscription philosophy to individuals stinks. Can Adobe go back on their word and force users into a subscription program, absolutely they can, but hopefully many photographers will remember this and choose to not support their product. The question is, what is the next best thing, it looks like Capture One is, but I don’t know where to get training on C1 as I’ve been a professional user of LR since its inception. I still run Photoshop CS4 and will probably continue to do so…

      • TurtleCat

        I’ve used Photoshop since I “found” a copy of version 1 when I was in college. So I’m very ingrained in the Lightroom/Photoshop way. I’ll just have to change I guess. Capture1 is probably the biggest competitor, though there are others. Capture1 has perpetual and license and I wonder if they will eventually go down this road as well.

    • Vince Vinnyp

      when did they say that? i thought they said indefinitely?

      • 24×36

        Yes, and “indefinitely” is generally taken to mean it will continue without any specified limitation. Not end after *ONE* more minor iteration. So yes, in essence, they lied.

        • Vince Vinnyp

          Hmm not in any dictionary I have seen and not any usage I am familiar with. Here is what the Oxford dictionary says “Lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.”
          How does “In” at the start of a word modify the root? Indiscrete means not discrete, indiscreet not discreet, indelicate means not delicate Indefinite means ??? So if someone uses a word in it’s defined correct way they are lying?

          • Thom Hogan

            Unfortunately, people don’t look up words to see what they mean, they just use their own meaning.

            • Allan

              🙂

          • 24×36

            I said thesaurus, not dictionary. And an “unknown or unstated length of time” implies they essentially *can’t foresee the end of the “period.”* They knew the synonyms for “indefinitely,” and exactly how that statement would be interpreted. So yes, basically they lied.

            • Vince Vinnyp

              It would appear that John Kenneth Galbraith is on the money. You did say Thesaurus but you mistakenly said synonyms; a thesaurus does not just list synonyms it also lists related concepts. That’s why we have dictionaries to tell us what words mean.

  • Pells

    Should have bought Adobe shares and got all of your money back.

    September 2013 – Abobe announces Photoshop subscription for 9.99 – Stock Price = $52
    April 2015 – Lightroom CC comes out – Stock Price $76
    October 2017 – Lightroom CC (or 7) comes out – Stock Price $152

    Adobe’s key constituency is happy – (ie shareholders, not photographers)

    • Bill M

      An excellent point. No doubt they are making money, but so do Communist regimes…

      • ZoetMB

        Communist regimes make money? That’s news to me. I guess the USSR didn’t break up because of military costs and the collapse of oil prices.

        • Bill M

          I suppose the communist regime doesn’t necessarily “make money”, but instead is supported by the labor of its people which was the analogy I was making with Adobe, instead of making their software available as perpetual (free market) they are now offering only subscription (enslaving their user base)

  • surgeon67

    Anybody have any experience with the Corel products? I’m still retraining my post production skills from paper and chemicals to digital. I’ve had some success with Painstshop/Aftershot, but I’m still learning the workflow for it. Is Adobe THAT much better that it’s worth this kind of thing? Just curious.

  • TurtleCat

    What also boils my potatoes, as they say, is that over the last 2 years there has been practically no improvement with Lightroom CC. Sure, a couple of minor features were added, but nothing of any real usefulness. So back to LR 6 perpetual after my subscription ends on 12/1 and look for a migration away from Adobe. I’ve already got Affinity to replace Photoshop. Maybe I’ll give View NX/Capture NX another chance? I have Photo Ninja but it’s an abandoned product.

    • Tom Co

      I have never heard the phrase “boil my potatoes” before but it’s just SO apt (not app)

      • TurtleCat

        Lol! I think I got it from some 1970s sitcom.

        • br0xibear

          Not to be confused with “boiling my potatoes” as seen on urban dictionary…search urban dictionary at your own risk, lol.

          • IronHeadSlim

            Curiosity just killed this cat!

          • TurtleCat

            I swear 95% of the stuff in urban dictionary is someone making crap up. A coworker of mine got something added a few years ago that he made up.

            • br0xibear
            • PhilK

              Probably.

              They have a certain “aesthetic” (eg, urban gangster misogynist crap) and if you submit something that either doesn’t address that aesthetic or isn’t submitted by a ton of other people they probably won’t accept it either.

              Once upon a time I had a pretty cute one that I submitted to them (had heard it elsewhere, thought it was pretty good) and they never accepted it.

    • 24×36

      Why do you say that Photo Ninja is an “abandoned product?” Just curious.

      • TurtleCat

        Other than a few big fixes and camera models added it has remained unchanged for over 3 years. They promised a big update in 2015 via emails and even on their web site and they ended up removing all references to it. People have paid for support for a year with almost no change added. The current version is almost identical to the one from when I first found it in 2013.

        • 24×36

          Do you like what it can do? It’s definitely one that looks interesting to me, and I’m not all that concerned about “big updates,” as long as it continues to be updated to support new cameras and I like what I can get out of it.

          • TurtleCat

            When I first used it I did but other tools caught up. The problem is lack of any good profiles, easy lens corrections, lack of any real tools for touch ups, and general crapitude for browser. The interface is a bit clunky since it’s written to work as-is on Mac, Windows, etc. so it doesn’t adhere to the UI standards of any platform.

    • A. F.O.

      september 9th:
      “Adobe achieved record quarterly revenue of $1.84 billion in its third
      quarter of fiscal year 2017, which represents 26 percent
      year-over-year revenue growth.”

  • I installed the update this morning that was to improve performance. Today’s LR speed is the same as when I left work yesterday. I see no improvement whatsoever.

    • Lol….

    • I had a bet…

    • kcarnes9051

      Well mine is definitely snappier. Still could be better, but I see an improvement moving between Library and Develop and moving between images in Develop.

      • John Turner

        Agreed, its (LR Classic) quicker.

    • IronHeadSlim

      I don’t want to agree but it definitely isn’t faster.

      • IronHeadSlim

        Actually, the more you use it the faster it seems to get as it saves previews.

  • WoodyM

    I pay for Illustrator CC because I get files from my customers in CC. But save all files down to CS6. When I was upgrading from CS4 to CS6 bundle. Adobe told me that I have to upgrade to CC that I could not get CS6 any more. .. what … there was an add to cart for CS6 on there web site. they said there was not… at this point its been 2 years with 2 licenses. I have saved a whopper. Subscription based software should be called extortion based.

    • It’s not the subscription model that’s disgusting, it’s the fact, that we do not receieve any significant new functions since decades. Not even in PS and LR and the MS Office line as well. So that’s why they force the subscription model. It’s time for small developers to show what competition is. Because it’s annoying to subscribe just to feed a few hundred people at Adobe for nothing…

      • peter w

        Indeed, sometimes software is even crippled in order to make something that appears new, as microsoft office shows.

  • Serguei Vergounov

    Tair 11A – a new lens??? I have it for thirty years already.

  • Bill M

    This might be the straw that broke the photographers back… at least for me. I’ve used Photoshop since I don’t know when and I’ve used Lightroom since version 1 came out and sang it’s praises for RAW workflow. My question is this, if one were to decide to no longer use LR for RAW workflow, what are the next best tools. It sounds like Capture One may be the next best option but going to their website they have stand alone and they have subscription, so the question is how long until Phase One forces their users into subscription based software? Hoping that they will not anytime soon, does anyone have any recommendations on what websites offer the best tutorials for using the product? I’d also be willing to pay for a Training DVD if there was something like the old Kubota tutorials on Lightroom.

    • br0xibear

      “how long until Phase One forces their users into subscription based software?”
      Yeah…that’s also concerning.

      • Allen_Wentz

        The issue to me is not the subscription model per se. It is Adobe’s arrogant, heavy-handed implementation.

      • peter w

        they have a subscription policy, which you should consider, since each year there is a new full paid version. If you would buy a new model camera like every two year, the subscription is cheaper.

        • TurtleCat

          The thing is, will they abandon the perpetual license option in the future as Lightroom has.

          • peter w

            Why not? They need continuity in income.
            All companies seem to want this.
            I don’t think you want to pay 300 euro for version 10 in november when you bought version 9 november last year.

            I like the subscription. It doesn’t bite.

            • TurtleCat

              I don’t inherently dislike subscription. What I dislike is there is no out usually. Some places state you maintain a perpetual license to the last version you used (without any updates) if you subscribed for a period of time. If Adobe did that it would eliminate most of the issue people have.

        • but the subscription of Capture One ends up being double the price Adobe PS+LR CC? :/

          • Thom Hogan

            Yeah. A lot of people aren’t doing the math. I’ve just gone through this with a lot of On1 users: at US$79 a year for an update, Photo RAW is basically US$6.59 a month for a product still trying to catch up to LR.

            People need to take their emotion out of this and look at the reality of what’s happening.

          • peter w

            I use photoshop cc 2 next to cop. Perhaps you need a more sofisticated version, there are a lot of versions to choose from. 😉

            • sure – but you need to buy COP for $300, right? It’s 2.5 years worth of subscription to Adobe CC.

            • that’s nice – how much is cop? $300. that’s 2.5 years worth of subscription to adobe cc.

              subscription cop is $20 a month – twice the money you’d pay for adobe cc.

          • peter w

            Did you edit your post? My respons looks quite off

            • nope. I’m still wondering how paying $20 a month for cop is better than paying $10 a month for PS/LR.

            • peter w

              I don’t think I pay 20$. It s more like 12 euro. Has been less.
              I would pay more for a Nikon than for a Canon camera, if they were functionally equal. Because I like working with Nikon more. This could – off course – very eassily have been otherwise. With Lightroom/PS versus COP I am sure I like the latter much better. (I didn’t use the DAM of eigther).

      • Thom Hogan

        I’m not at all bothered by SaS (software as a service). I am bothered by software that loses functionality after I stop paying for the service, however. Particularly when I’ve invested so much up to that point.

        That’s the current problem with CC: the longer you pay for it, the more you’d expect to stick around when you stop paying for it.

        • I agree, they should let you use the version when you stopped paying. That would be fair.

          • Thom Hogan

            It’s easy enough to do: after a year or other specified time period of subscribing, features unlock if you cancel your subscription. The tricky part is the pricing of getting back into the subscription at a later date. You don’t want people coming in for awhile to unlock, live off program until you introduce a feature they want/need, then do the same thing on you. That puts revenues back in the old “standalone update” problem of unpredictability.

    • TurtleCat

      There are a number of videos on YouTube for Capture one. They are pretty good, although a lot of videos covering older versions.

  • Tom Co

    I try and stand back to take a broad ranging, overall view of Adobe. In the current stage of my career path I am happy with CC as I will also be including video to a greater extent next year so from my perspective on pricing, I feel I get value.

    However, when I balance that positive feeling with their niggledy, rushed to launch almost working, 100% approach to upgrades, their well meaning but abysmal “technical” support and the sheer smugness of their evangelists, I sometimes feel less than charitable (to put it mildly) Adobe is like Marmite/Vegemite, you either love it or loathe it

  • Does Capture One have mobile apps and web editing like LR CC? I have to have the full adobe suite for other reasons, but I do find LR really slow on desktop, especially with the larger files of my D850. I work from a new, spec-maxed 15” MacBook Pro, but the software’s file handling is laggy. My workflow includes heavy use of an iPad Pro after importing/uploading images through desktop. No substantial lag compared to working in LR for desktop this way, but I have to go back to the desktop for certain edits (mobile version is getting better quickly with added features). I am hearing lots of positive things about Capture One. My only real complaint is slow processing on desktop with LR (seeing that I am paying for a CC subscription for my day job anyways). What other benefits make it worth considering? Sell me on it! 😉

    • Allen_Wentz

      Better NEF conversions from C1, at least to my eyes/brain.

      • Lane Shurtleff

        Absolutely! ACR compared to C1 raw file adjustments and output are not even close.

    • peter w

      Look at the instruction videos and try for a month (or a year subscription). I only work it with a stand alone desktop, on that it is much faster than LR 5. Some hickups to the left and to the right, like any software.

  • Luca Motz

    Is it just me or is the RAW conversion for the D850 in the new Lightroom terrible as fuck? Just came back from a shoot and imported everything formatted my memory cards because I thought I’m fine anyways then I look at the DNGs and it just looks utterly horrible. SUUUUUUPER noisy and just weird overall. Kinda managed to save the files but had to deliver way less quality than I could have.

    • br0xibear

      “formatted my memory cards because I thought I’m fine”
      Oh…no…never touch your cards until everything is double checked and backed up.

      • Allen_Wentz

        And never import directly into any images management app like LR or C1 or Aperture. Copy files to a drive and eject the card before touching files.

      • Luca Motz

        Yeeeeep. Just didn’t come to my mind that DNG conversion would screw me over

    • Michael Cary Arellano

      This happened to me when I first got my newly-released D800, there was horrible color banding and noise in files that shouldn’t have noise (i.e. sub-ISO 250…), etc. It took weeks for an Adobe software patch/update to fix it 🙁

      • Luca Motz

        Yeah it’s not that bad with the D850 😀

    • I noticed this also. My first shoot with the 850, iso 64 and mid tones and even highlights looked like they had iso 4000 equivalent noise!!! Like what the heck is this!? Camera or? I sure as heck hope it’s adobe, or the 850 is a piece of trash…which doesn’t match what reviewers have said about it. Used 810 for 3 years prior flawlessly.

      • Luca Motz

        Use their DNG converter that one is fine

        • Update: I updated to LR CC “Classic” (wink wink)…and the files look fantastic. Used Zeiss Milvus 21mm with D850, absolutely stunning results. Sharpness is stunning. No noise.

  • Luis F. Vidal

    Confusion for the sake of it.

  • Allen_Wentz

    Adobe lost me, a supportive user since the early days of PS and a Master Collection user, when they forced the egregious CC on to users. After more than a decade of upgrading, CS6 is my last Adobe app.

    • A. F.O.

      Amen to that.

  • Ric of The LBC

    Bring back Capture NX!!!!!!!!!!!

    • TurtleCat

      Lol, that ship has sailed. SilkyPix, aka NX-D, isn’t terrible. It’s not great but it’s not terrible.

    • DieMusik

      One big reason I am not upgrading after D800/D4 bodies.

    • peter w

      Not waiting anymore. I was, when using Lightroom, but COP is really more sofisticated. If I realy miss the control points, I make a tiff and open it in Capture NX. DxO is told to do good things, I don’t like the user interface.

  • KnightPhoto

    How about ON-1, how is it’s RAW conversion of Nikon NEFs? ON-1 seems to be getting more and more feature rich and not all that costly, $119 I think?

    • TurtleCat

      A lot of people think it’s buggy but I haven’t used it. I have heard many good things about Iridient which is another option. Some like DarkTable — free, and Raw Photo Processor. It all depends on how simple you want it to be.

      • Lane Shurtleff

        On1’s RAW 2018 is in Beta 2 now, they fixed a tron of bugs. It’s been pretty smooth for the limited use I’ve given it, but I see it a s WAY better alternative to anything Adobe has.

        • Thom Hogan

          And it costs US$79 as an upgrade to Photo RAW 2017 users ;~). US$6.50+ a month.

  • Wedding_Shooter

    Will classic support the 850? Is that different from lightroom 6 wtf

    • br0xibear

      Yeah, CC and Classic are both subscription based and will support D850 files. The stand alone version, called Lightroom 6, will be updated to support D850 files on Oct 26th.
      Lightroom 6 will no longer be updated to support any cameras that come out after the 31st Jan 2017

  • Adobe lost another customer. I was ready to pay for LR7, but I am not going to opt-in for a subscription. LR 6.13 will be last for me. I will try and learn as much of C1 as I can and then I will switch from LR.

    Goodbye Adobe. No more cursing you I guess for an end to the sluggish performance I got from LR 🙂

    • Reilly Diefenbach

      So you’re going to spend $20 a month to avoid paying $10? Some of you folks are simply not making sense.

      • You are the one not making sense. I was ready to pay for a standalone version, like I did with LR6. Not for any subscriptions. I’m not going to spend any monthly amount, I’ll buy C1 or something else, standalone version and will use that.

  • delta snowan

    If they’re distinctly different products then please give them distinctly different names. I’m so confused by what’s going on and really by which one I’ve been using for the last 2 years.

  • Claude Mayonnaise

    A rare day when Sony users, Nikon users, m4/3 users and the rest come together and agree on one thing. Adobe Stinks.

    • I think the worse is that they don’t care – they did not even try to do any damage control…

      • Claude Mayonnaise

        I suppose they are so huge it really doesn’t concern them to do damage control. I think Adobe will still be used by a large majority of people but those folks just outside of the professional bracket or those folks whose employer isn’t paying for it might just try something new. It’s a huge hassle to switch a work flow. I’ve spent years reading and learning Adobe products but I think I’m going to try Capture Pro and see how it goes. I just hope this isn’t the future of software but it may eventually all end up subscription based.

        • Visions

          Affinity Photo is amazing. I’ll try ACDSee Photo Studio Professional 2018 which was recommended by a friend as an amazing Lightroom alternative. I’ll try it tonight and say something to you guys. 😉

          Got tired of Adobe. Got rid of Photoshop an year ago(been using Affinity Photo since then), and now it’s time to get rid of lightroom.

          • 24×36

            I’ve been loking at Affinity too – have you tried processing D850 files on it, or are they not yet supported? (And if not, any indication of when they will be?)

            • Visions

              The D850 is still not supported But, the raw processor of affinity is still very young so it is not as nearly as good as Adobe Camera Raw or Capture One.
              If you want to process your raw files just use Capture one, and then export them as Tiff or PSD.(Yeah Affinity supports PSD files as well!)

              For the rest of your work, Affinity Photo is the way to go, and the new 1.6 version will be out at the end of this year if i’m correct.

            • 24×36

              Capture One doesn’t support my OS, and upgrading that is kind of a big hassle, so not going to be able to go that route.

      • Reilly Diefenbach

        So ten dollars a month is too much?

        • Ric of The LBC

          I stuck with v5 as I did not see enough improvements to upgrade. $240 I have not spent.

        • If you think this will stay at $10 for long, you are wrong. Just wait and see – once they get enough people over, the price will go up.

  • JOHN TANG

    haha… Adobe Lightroom hustle for money

  • chromedome

    ‘Perpetual’ licenses really aren’t perpetual when they are replaced with new versions every 2-3 years, and you have to purchase a new version to get the new features. Sure, you can probably feel all perpetual by hanging on to your v3.0 cds (until cd readers are no longer made). Frankly, though, the subscription model is more suited to the concept of perpetual usefulness (as opposed to a perpetual license).

    I was dubious about the subscription model when it was first introduced. But before that I was always dubious about spending a few hundred dollars to get a new integer version every few years (are the updates worth the hundreds of dollars, then no new features for 3-4 years).

    But I got LR and PS CC for ten bucks a month — basically just for PS since I’ve never used LR. It is completely worth it. It is less money overall for frequently updated tools. And, for me, it is no-brainer less painful than dropping a large sum on a new ‘perpetual’ update. (I got my D850 in Sept and PS supported it when I had files to use). Less Money, Continuously Improved Product, Why Worry?

    For those planning to cling to their perpetual LR 6, a caution from one who clung to Aperture: it will either become unsupported, or OS changes will kill it. Or it won’t support the D950 you buy a few years down the road. You might find a sudden need to switch tools, learn new stuff in a time crunch. Or you might cave and decide to subscribe anyway, and then realize you could have been using better functionality for years.

    Or you can look at how much you have been spending for ‘perpetual’ products, put that money in a dedicated checking account, set up auto pay and move on.

    I use Capture One now (love it), PS as the primary tools. But I have a lot of work done in Aperture and Nik. So I may have to maintain a computer at a perpetually old OS level so that I can access those as needed. And even that just delays the inevitable.

    But maybe in 36 months people will be fine with the $360 saved, and the current functions/features/OS/hardware compatibility of the LR/PS Version in hand unto perpetuity.

    • Roger S

      “For those planning to cling to their perpetual LR 6, a caution from one who clung to Aperture: it will either become unsupported, or OS changes will kill it. ”

      That is a good point. Unsupported software has

    • Mike

      I spent $80 for the LR 5 upgrade in March of 2014. I’ve been using LR 5.7 quite happily until now (I also bought the D850). $80, 3.5 years ago. I’m loathe to think under the new model I’d still be paying for it. Many times over. That’s the difference. People like choice. Or warning. “CC or LR 7. LR 7 will be the last standalone version”. (Even though they said there would always be a standalone version). “It will stop being supported in October 2019.” Not “LR 6 will cease being supported in 2 months time”.

      • chromedome

        Fair point: for folks who don’t us PS much, primarily LR, this is not a good deal I suspect. I’ve never used LR, just PS. So, at the time I hated having to subscribe for both as a package deal, but in my case the value proposition in terms of costs of subscribing to both vs. buying standalone versions of PS was clear.

      • JimJoeBob2

        You spent $3300 on a new camera. (Do you have an 800 or 810 already?) And you are complaining about $120 a year? Please. Do you also complain about the $80 otterbox case for your $700 phone?

        • Mike

          Lol. Do you work for Adobe? You’re assuming a lot about me like Adobe does. Do you assume I’m American and paid $3300? Do you know how many subscription business models have their hands in my pocket every month? Do you think I’m crazy to spend $80 on an Otterbox? Besides, people can CHOOSE to get an Otterbox or not. Adobe has taken choice away. Why do I want to spend $360 USD over 3 years when I can spend $80 once in those 3 years. $120 per year is for Americans. If you pay and convert in your home currency, monthly rates fluctuate and ends up being more. In the last 3 years my currency has ranged from at par to a 30% exchange. Hard to budget when the goal posts keep moving. Paying once is cost certainty. Arrogance is the Achilles heal of all things powerful.

          • IronHeadSlim

            Don’t take it so personal. No one is making you choose Adobe products.

            We are talking about such a little amount that you have to be kidding me when photography costs many thousands a year to have new equipment.

            You never bought software that didn’t need updates, Adobe just wants the income to be steady.

            • Mike

              It’s not about being personal. Well maybe it is. The internet is blowing up wth sentiments similar to mine. It’s a very alienating way of doing business. It’s a sneaky way of doing business. I’ve been using LR for 10 years. Quite happy in the arrangement of paying $80 every two years for a new “model”. I didn’t set the price. This time around I was able to squeeze out another year. And Adobe knows people are very invested in the LR language. So they sort of have you by the Short and curly’s. Learning another program and it’s nuances to the level I know LR is losing time and efficiency in my business. I don’t have patience for that. So ya it is personal. There is choice, to use something else. But it’s massively inconvenient to figure it all out. I tried C1 but it’s not intunitive at all. It’s not for me. The cost of gear is irrelevant btw to what Adobe is doing.

            • IronHeadSlim

              No it isn’t. Lightroom costs $120 per year. If you can afford a late model Nikon you can afford Lightroom.

            • Mike

              Sure I can afford it. That’s not the point. No one has said they can’t afford it. And for me it’s not $120. It’s more. It’s $120 USD. I don’t know what it will actually cost me because the currency fluctuates every month. But it’s not about being able to afford it. It’s the principal of it.

            • IronHeadSlim

              I guess I don’t really understand the principal then. Exchange rates have not a thing to do with Adobe. You seem to like the software. Now it is $120 a year, paid monthly. I don’t see how it is anything but the money because you were paying $80 for 3 1/2 years before and now you are mad because folks who can afford $3300 cameras, not to mention lenses, etc. shouldn’t have to pay a proper price for software.

            • Mike

              You seem mad that’s people are buying new cameras. What’s a proper price for software? I didn’t set the price. I paid and played within the boundaries Adobe set. Software is akin to music. I’ve never had a record, tape, CD, MD, or .mp3 file “expire” on me. Anyway, we disagree. You have your opinion and values, and I have mine. Happy shooting.

            • Sören Hese

              not the point – if Adobe goes offline you are locked off from all your library edits – good luck then with your imaging business … and if you had everything in the cloud its even more the END 😉

            • Allen_Wentz

              Nonsense about “Adobe just wants the income to be steady.” CC made a huge boost in gross revenue for Adobe.

              I do not begrudge any firm their gross revenue. But do not claim Adobe’s intent was just to make income be steady.

    • Allen_Wentz

      No, CC is NOT “less money overall…” I was a loyal PS user from the 1990s up through CS6. When CC came out it cost more, period (once you got past the initial, temporary come-on deal).

      The other thing is new PS versions ALWAYS broke things; plug-ins, OS versions, etc. There was a substantial coping curve with each new version of PS. So most pro users like me did not buy each upgrade, we bought every other upgrade or every third upgrade; just enough to still get upgrade pricing. We did not want to waste all the required new-version-integration time.

      So CC was a huge unwarranted price increase to an already very expensive product – without value add. And the egregious payment/license terms are flat unacceptable. Fuck Adobe.

  • I have moved most of my processing to DXO. It has great profiles for the cameras I use. Scared of getting roped into what is basically a hostage situation.

    • Reilly Diefenbach

      DXO does not and never will have anywhere near the capabilities of Lightroom.

      • Allen_Wentz

        Like Adobe’s ACR does not and never will have anywhere near the RAW conversion quality of Capture NX-D, or of Capture One. Or of now defunct Aperture for that matter.

        • KnightPhoto

          Yep, I’m a year and a bit into LightRoom and Raw conversion really doesn’t match my 10 year experience with Capture NX-2. Makes me want to delve further into Capture NX-D :-/

          I had a request for an old album from 2008 and since a cherry-picked selection of this old album had already been done in Capture NX-2 back at the time, I decided to complete the rest using that old software. What a snap it was, clicked on a few saved actions, wham bam thank you maam.

  • karayuschij

    Time to leave Adobe. Capture One and Affinity Photo are excellent alternatives

    • Reilly Diefenbach

      So $20 a month is better than 10? And you wouldn’t have Photoshop?

      • karayuschij

        $20 a month? There is no subscription plan for it. Where did you read that? it cost $50 for a permanent licence, and Affinity Photo does almost all what Photoshop does, and sometimes it does it better.

  • Michiel953

    I have LR6 (it’s allright), monthly subscription but not cloud based, and a D850.

    What should I do? Stick with LR6 until a new, non-supported, camera comes along (in four years or so) and then search the market for an alternative?

    Any advice is appreciated.

    • Roland Maringer

      Hi Michiel63,

      I think you don’t have a problem at all. Just upgrade to Lightroom Classic CC (I did it yesterday, no problems) and enjoy! It is not cloud based, just a new and faster version of LR including D850 support. The upgrade is part of your monthly subscription.
      Remember, there are two version of LR:
      1) LR Classic CC, not cloud based, the successor of LR6, faster, new features,…
      2) LR CC, cloud based

      Both LR editions are part of your monthly subscription.
      RolMar

      • Michiel953

        Thanks Rolmar; probably will do that!

      • Polsloe

        I can’t see much new in LR CC Classic to LR6 stand alone? The “Extensive performance improvements” sound good BUT have you noticed much change?

      • Sören Hese

        Good luck with that when Adobe kills “classic”. And it will. All your libraries have your edits locked for eternity 😉

        • Allan

          Careful.

          You might have provoked an erudite discussion about the meaning of the word, “eternity”.

  • Rdpi

    Some of us will now abandon Lightroom and embrace a change of workflow and tools.
    Regardless of the “why” and not discussing pro and cons of a subscription model, what will your strategy be?

    I think that the problem that we have to solve is:
    – Find a good DAM
    – Find an editing app with decent RAW support (i’m considering also open source tools now)

    • karayuschij

      As editing app you have Affinity Photo. It is a raw developper + a photo editing app. Serif (Affinity) is also working on a DAM, but there are not a lot of news about it at the moment.

  • gnome

    Let’s not forget what Adobe had once said about Lightroom:
    https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0476255060/adobe-lightroom-5-beta-google-hangout
    “we have no plans to make Lightroom subscription-only at any point in the future. We have plans to make Lightroom available in its current form pretty much indefinitely”

      • gnome

        Thanks, I didn’t know this photorumors site, is it also yours?

        • yes 🙂

        • I’ve been running it for 9 years… how could you miss it 🙂

    • Thom Hogan

      And let’s not forget what the word indefinitely actually means.

      • Allen_Wentz

        Yes: “not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited.”

        In the context of Adobe’s words, what Adobe was _saying_ was “…plans to make Lightroom available in its current form pretty much -without limit.-”

        Adobe then later chose to screw customers by -limiting- availability. Finding an obscure usage of the word indefinite does not for one second change what Adobe was communicating.

        • That is correct, but I will not argue with Thom 🙂

          If you read the full Q&A, Adobe clearly wanted to show their commitment to the standalone version which was obviously not true..

        • Thom Hogan

          I have a problem with that definition, wherever it came from, because it’s not self consistent. You can’t say “unlimited” because that’s a definite thing. So is it definite, or indefinite? ;~)

          That’s one problem with words, they tend to gain meaning that wasn’t given. If everyone THINKS that indefinite means “forever,” then the word just changed definition. That happens. But I think that Adobe used the word appropriately here.

          Again, I’m as hard on Adobe as anyone, but I don’t think that this particular wording was an intentional plan to fake out its user base. I was there when Tom Hagarty said it at one of the shows: he seemed sincere and I heard the extended questioning it provoked, and I don’t think he knew of any plans that would change in the future.

  • Lund4ever

    All talk about cloud based work-flow and storing thing in the cloud, switching between real computer, mobile and phones or whatever, is a fantasy. Editing a normal photo gets to Gigabyte or more, which adobe should know. Or not? To be frank, Adobe obviously know close to nothing about how the products are used. Or should be used. I was quite active some time before to get them to understand there are high resolution monitors out there. From 2005! It took until CC (after CS6) they started to improve the user interface. The problem with Adobe is lack of competition.

  • Nikkor300f4VR
  • Visions

    I guess we should stay together as one and send a clear message to Adobe, not with words because that won’t do nothing i’m afraid, but with our wallets!

    I used to be blindly supportive of Adobe, but not anymore.
    I’ve made the switch from Photoshop to Affinity Photo(almost a year ago) and i couldn’t be happier. It is relieable, as powerfull as Photoshop and affordable. Serif Suppor is amazing, they have tons and i mean tons of tutorials.But the learning curvature from Photoshop is almost virtually zero. They are really supportive, especially at their forum.

    Serif and Affinity Photo is the way to go. They are building a DAM as well. But until then i’ve been searching for a lightroom alternative without success. Tried Capture one, it’s good but its quite pricy compared to lightroom 6.
    That being said, a friend of mine recomended me ACDsee Photo Studio Professional 2018 and apparently it seems it’s as good as lightroom if not better.

    I’ll give it a try at their beta version, and i recommend all of you to do the same. 😉

    • Reilly Diefenbach

      As powerful as Photoshop? Really??

      • Vince Vinnyp

        Give it a try it is good, very good, but no not close to Photoshop. Key for me is no smart objects no real integration into an ecosystem, and no way to blend or merge to a raw file.

        • Visions

          Well, that’s not true. Basically every layer in Affinity Photo is a Smart Object.

          • Vince Vinnyp

            ?? But if I send it to anyone they can’t just change the smart object and send it back?

            • Visions

              You can use embedded documents for that(using the Place Feature). And it will preserve full editability of that object at any time.

              But you need to use Affinity Photo proprietary file for that.

              Because if you open, imagine an PSD file for example, with smart objects when you open with Affinity Photo it will rasterize it as a pixel layer.

            • Vince Vinnyp

              Yes I knew that but the rest of the world use PSD so that is not much use and would be a huge hit for anyone (Like me and most users) who already has thousands of files with smart objects?

            • Visions

              Smart objects are proprietary of Adobe so there’s that. That being said, i never tried with Tiff files and i don’t know if it works or not but it could be somehow a work around.

      • Visions

        Yes it is, it even has live view blending modes and brushes. So you see the results even before you apply any change. You can use channels as your masks as well as luminosity masks.

    • 24×36

      Unfortunately, ACDsee is Windblows only.

      • Visions

        Then Capture One should be your choise, it is much faster than Lightroom.

        • 24×36

          Unfortunately, my OS is unsupported by the latest Capture One, so not going down that road.

  • geogre

    October 18, 2017 – what a sad day for Lightroom users.

    I’m out, too.

    I have been a loyal customer for Adobe for many years. And I have been so looking forward to Lightroom 7 for such a long time, even willing to pay $200 or $300 for the update.

    I don’t understand why it is no option for them to sell perpetual licenses AND to rent the software to people who like the idea at the same time? They could just raise the prices for perpetual if money is their concern.

    I will definitely NOT put even one cent into this CC idea.

    I am going to buy ALL of the alternatives instead and I’m looking forward to learning new software!

    Goodbye, Adobe.

    • KC

      The reason they do it is because they eventually want to shift everyone to LR CC…

      What this does is:
      1. Forces their users into storing data on Adobe servers (a huge revenue source). Think walled garden (i.e., apple)
      2. Once customers are locked in then prices can be significantly raised
      3. Only one code base to support
      4. Aimed at the smartphone “photographer” (there are billions of these folks)

      The 1st company that comes along with a credible LR alternative that READS and APPLIES LR room edits will be the winner… There will be the proverbial giant sucking sound as photographers depart Adobe. Even then Adobe wont care, their LR revenue source is intended to be the smartphone “photographers” 🙁

      • Thom Hogan

        Certainly true to some extent, but:

        1. This is the primary goal, I think. Adobe sees Apple and Google clouds for photos as their primary threat.
        2. No. History says that probably won’t happen. They certainly would want to maximize revenue, but this isn’t a sure lock for them. There are too many cloud competitors, and that will force prices down.
        3. CC and Classic CC are currently two very different code bases.
        4. Yes, and Adobe’s position is that they want to charge that user US$10/month where Apple and Google already have that user and aren’t charging them (until they exceed base storage amounts). Tough game for Adobe to win.

        • KC

          1. Agreed
          2. I have to disagree here, LR CC will only allow you to store images on Adobe servers, so if you intend to use LR CC then you are locked in to Adobe’s ecosystem.
          3. Yup, I suspect that LR Classic CC will be depreciated over time and go the way of LR perpetual licensed product. When LR CC achieves feature parity with LR Classic then the product will be canceled (arriving at one code base).
          4. That is why they are making LR CC only work with Adobe servers.

          Adobe does not care about professional/semiprofessional photographers, there is no money in that market segment (that is why LR Classic was not rewritten).

          As an aside, I wish Serif was much closer than they are on the Affinity DAM 🙁

          Had I been crafting the Adobe strategy, I probably would not have done much different, they are following the transition to mobile and I get that…

          • Thom Hogan

            2. Again, competition and history says this isn’t likely to be true. Though one undisclosed thing about CC image storage is how easy it is to migrate those elsewhere. The more likely thing here is that Adobe is seeking a lock on monthly revenue streams, the same as Apple and Google. The critical point becomes when you crossover the storage threshold.
            3. This one is trickier. It depends upon how many commercial clients Adobe can lock into the cloud-only LR. That’s totally unknown at this point.

            We don’t know how much money Adobe makes off the Photography CC package. To my knowledge, they haven’t disclosed that. But you have to know that the “professional photographer” market doesn’t seem to be growing these days, so it’s not a source of revenue growth, I’ll bet.

            • KC

              To use LR CC you must use Adobe’s servers, they do have a download utility to retrieve the files but there is no telling how they will be organized.

              LR CC only has one online catalog (Much to Adobe’s chagrin I am one of those photographers that use quite a number of LR catalogs), so your point about ease of migration is very important. Is there a folder structure, keywords, etc. or do you just get a file dump?

              The professional photographer market is in a death spiral, hence LR CC and the need to lock in the smartphone photographer… …also why they did not do the desperately needed rewrite on LR Classic (only minor feature additions and minor speed improvements) The handwriting is on the wall for LR Classic.

        • I’m also worried about features in Classic CC not being moved over to CC, and Classic CC left to rot, especially since the CC code base seems to be newer and cleaner, so their engineers won’t be as happy to work on Classic. CC seems to be moving away from serious, enthusiast photographers to people who post stuff mostly on social media (eg. it can’t even print right now), and if CC doesn’t gain some kind of workflow parity with Classic and keeps its dumbed-down mobile-optimized workflow, I can see a lot of people leaving it: I certainly would after using LR from version 3.

          It also doesn’t give me much confidence in Adobe’s product management in that CC seems half-baked and is missing a lot of features.

          This reminds me a lot of Apple’s transition to Final Cut Pro X (initially called by some “iMovie Pro”), but at least Apple committed to making FCPX a pro tool and has followed through with that so it is a serious, capable tool today. It remains to be seen where Adobe will take LR.

    • Thom Hogan

      Really? You’re willing to pay US$300 but won’t join the US$9.99/month plan? For your stated expectations, that would give you at least two-and-a-half years of continued software use, more performance, and a new feature or two. Can you really predict where you’d want to be with software in two-and-a-half years? If so, please tell the rest of us ;~).

      • Allen_Wentz

        The issue is not about subscription pricing per se. The issue is Adobe’s arrogant, heavy-handed approach to pricing, and the fact that upgrading every second or third version was hella cheaper (and minimized broken plug-ins) than forced-on-us CC pricing.

        Just for grins I reprint verbatim my chat with Adobe from 4 years ago:
        =============================
        May 8, 2013
        One moment please while we route your chat to a representative.
        Thank you for contacting Adobe Sales. My name is Priscilla. How may I help you today?
        Priscilla: Hi, may I have your first name please?
        you: How do I upgrade to Photoshop CS6 BOXED EDITION from my CS5 Master Collection?
        you: Allen
        Priscilla: Hi Allen.
        Priscilla: I will be glad to help you with that.
        Priscilla: I am sorry ,we do not have “boxed version” available now.
        Priscilla: Is there anything else may I help you with that?
        you: Will a boxed version be available and if so what will it cost?
        Priscilla: Sorry ,you can purchase only download version from Adobe.com.
        you: How do I purchase a download version and what does it cost (no subscription choices please)?
        Priscilla: There is no upgrade path available from CS5 Master Collection to Photoshop CS6 .
        Priscilla: However,you can update it from one suite to another.
        you: That makes no sense, IIRC it was a choice when I bought the Master Collection.
        you: I would not have purchased the VERY expensive Master Collection if I thought Adobe would not give me upgrade pricing on PS.
        you: So what does CS6 Design Premium cost me, non-subscription?
        Priscilla: Let me check that for you.
        Priscilla: An upgrade to Creative Suite 6 Design & Web Premium from CS5 Mastercollection will cost you $749.
        Priscilla: How soon do you wish to use the software?
        you: No rush, I will probably never upgrade if I cannot just upgrade PS. This is very not good if this is Adobe’s enrty into providing “service” instead of app packages.
        Priscilla: I can understand your concern.
        Priscilla: Let me ask you a few questions to make sure we get you the right product at best price.
        you: OK
        Priscilla: To help you better can you tell me what kind of tasks would you like the software to help you accomplish?
        you: Umm, Photoshop that I have been using for 15 years. Not Bridge, not DNG, not ACR. My images workflow has shifted to mostly Aperture now anyway.
        Priscilla: Are you interested in graphics and designing?
        you: Other non-PS Master Collection apps I can live with my existing v5 just fine.
        you: And Adobe may be forcing me to live with v5 PS forever as well.
        Priscilla: Okay,in this case,as you own CS5 software,I can get you Photoshop CC at a discounted price at $9.99 per month only.
        you: Forever at that subscription price?
        Priscilla: It is a monthly subscription,which will cost you $9.99 per month only.
        you: Does that price go up after a few months?
        Priscilla: The price will be the same for 1 year.
        you: Then does it go up?
        Priscilla: We do not have information about that,at this moment.
        Priscilla: I am sorry for that.
        Priscilla: Let me provide you with the direct link to place the order. Alright!
        you: Will my option to buy the $9.99/month CC upgrade choice expire? If so when? I will appreciate the link.
        Priscilla: This offer is valid till till 31st July ,2013.
        Priscilla: Click here to place the order.
        you: Thank you.
        Priscilla: Did you get the link?
        Priscilla: I’ll standby to hear the order number and the order total since it helps me to verify the order and confirm that the order has gone through successfully.
        you: Yes but it shows $19.99/month. I am not going to buy today and will likely stick with v5 Master Collection plus new solutions from non_adobe vendors.
        Priscilla: As you own CS5 ,you will get it at discounted price.
        Priscilla: If you will place the order now,I will help you with the order processing.
        you: I do see the $9.99 choice now on the link you provided. Thank you. After 15 years of upgrades I probably will never do so again. Corporate Policy is not your fault of course, you have a good day.
        you: Goodbye
        Priscilla: Please go ahead and place the order and let me know once you complete the order. I’ll stay online with you.
        you: Like I said earlier I will probably not order a subscription upgrade now or ever. Goodbye.
        Priscilla: Thank you for visiting Adobe.com today! Please come back online if you need any assistance. We will be happy to help.
        Priscilla: We’d like to hear your comments. Please click on the ‘Close’ button in the upper right corner and take a moment to complete a short survey. Thank you! Have a Nice Day!
        Thank you for chatting with Adobe.
        ————————————-
        second try
        Please hold as we route your chat to an Adobe Representative.
        You are not currently in a chat.
        You are not currently in a chat.
        Hello! Welcome to Adobe.com! My name is ‘Chris S’.
        Visitor: My name is Allen.
        Chris S: Hello, how may I assist you?
        Visitor: I own Master Collection v5 and want to upgrade Photoshop only. A download of PS CS6, no cc.
        Visitor: Mac version
        Visitor: What will it cost me?
        Chris S: Are you a government agency?
        Visitor: I am a one-person shop designer.
        Chris S: You’d need to contact our online store at 800-585-0774.
        Visitor: Thank you. I tried and they are unavailable at this time. Goodbye.
        Chris S: You’re welcome.
        ————–

        • Michiel953

          Please don’t burden us with this tearjerker, Allen?

          • Allen_Wentz

            Just do not read it. No tears, it is simply exemplary of Adobe 2013 comms to customers re: PS and CC.

            • Michiel953

              How would I know it’s a tearjerker if I didn’t read it?

              Common fallacy.

        • IronHeadSlim

          Wow, kept it for 4 years just to have this moment. Savor it.

          • Allen_Wentz

            Nah, just routine comms text filed with the Adobe warranty files. Takes no space so I don’t delete such things.

            • IronHeadSlim

              Ha, sorry, couldn’t resist!

              I like Adobe generally so I’m just being being a smartass.

            • Allen_Wentz

              Heck, for a decade I _loved_ Adobe. Active in the forums, etc. Then when Adobe merged with Macromedia the culture of the company seemed to go to hell.

      • Claude Mayonnaise

        I think the concern may be that if you give Adobe an inch they may take a mile in the future. This price might not last. I suppose we can’t predict the future but we all can see where this may lead. The reality is that we all are tied down to certain things such as software workflow and just don’t like the thought of change. Nothing lasts forever. It might actually be good not to place all your eggs in one software if you think about it. Nobody can predict where software will be in five years and I think that is what is causing the alarm. People want things to stay the same but it never does.

        • Thom Hogan

          I don’t see how that’s a concern with only Adobe ;~). Companies grab what they can. They have different views of the world than individual users do, and different priorities.

          In terms of pricing, LR CC (not Classic CC) is in a highly competitive position. With no hardware platform shipping free versions as Apple and Google have, Adobe isn’t going to be able to raise prices on LR CC. In essence, they’re in a heated battle to grab users, and the defining element there is going to be who will go lowest on data storage charges long term.

          But you are correct. Nothing stays the same in software (or hardware, though that tends to move a more predictable pace). To expect everything to be stable in your workflow forever is a wrong notion. We all want that to be true, but just looking at the workflow for my writing over my career, I can’t even begin to count all the iterations I’ve gone through.

          • Sören Hese

            yes thats the worrying part. Can I access my RAW file edits in 5-10 years from now or are these locked in a library file that is nowhere supported anymore? I guess at some point I will have to export the old LR6 library RAW file edits to TIFFs.

  • JimJoeBob2

    It blows my mind that so many of you are complaining about the costs for subscription based licensing, when you are dropping $3500+ on a new camera after only lets say 5 years for a D800 or what 3 years for a D810. Price that out over a yearly basis. The truth of the whole situation is, pretty much all software is going to go this way because it keeps a steady income for the business. It is capitalism at its best and its not going away. You do it with insurance. You do with with car loans and home loans. Credit cards… You name it. I get it, if you do not like the software. Try other stuff, great… But don’t be so short minded because you feel like you are renting the software, because every since software was invented, you have been just renting it until the new version comes out.

    • False analogy. Just because *some* folks buy new cameras frequently enough to necessitate buying a new one-time-purchase software almost every time they buy a new camera, doesn’t mean everybody is buying cameras that frequently, nor are they buying brand new cameras either.

      Lastly, one-time-purchase software is still just that; a one-time purchase. MANY folks either just don’t buy new cameras very often, or they convert to DNG and still use a very old version of software that they paid to *OWN*, many years ago.

      You have a point that some folks are actually saving money by paying $9.99 / month for LR and PS. But many are not.

      • Keith

        I’m shooting a d800e. The fact is there is hardly anyone out here who is getting images with a d810 they couldn’t get nearly just as good with a d800e and the fact is there is no one here who is getting clearly better images with their D850 than they could have with their 810 or 850. It is the photographer not the camera. The Indian not the arrow. Consequently this is purely an academic argument for me as I stopped buying new lr when I stopped buying new cameras. There are loads of photographers better than me getting better images with their ten year old small frame camera than I am with my big frame because they’re just better than me. Our technology is better than at any time in the history of the world. Smaller lighter and better. There is very little need to upgrade once you have what you need.

    • Michiel953

      Reluctantly, I have to agree with your reasoning and arguments.

    • Polsloe

      I’ve saved a small fortune by upgrading LR5 to LR6 rather than paying monthly, and just because I can justify buying a £3500 camera for work doesn’t mean I can throw money away on unnecessary monthly charges hence for the same reason I’m using a 3 year old iPhone

    • You know, I prefer to get something for my money (now that’s what capitalism is really about), not just the actual Camera RAW I need every 8 years when I switch body. There is no new relevant function in Windows, Office, PS and LR (etc. etc.) for years now. If I buy a new camera for $3500 I receieve much better AF hardware and firmware, much better sensor, and the old body almost dead. What the hell changed in the ‘levels’ algorythm in the last decades? Let see: none. Is it maybe faster? Nope.

      If you like this construction, I am happy to send you a very nice Shakespeare poem in a very nice box of my precious style, but you have to pay me $1 every month from now on. I promise I will store the poem to you online and you can read that anytime you want. Deal?

      Ps. On the cloud fluff. There is no such thing as cloud. It’s someone else’s computer….

  • It’s a good thing that I actually prefer Capture One Pro’s rendition of NEF files WAYYYY more than ACR’s. In fact Adobe makes NEF files look downright ugly by comparison. Half time time I see someone’s landscape photos, all I can see is “Hmm, they really cranked the highlight / shadow slider on this one! …I don’t get any sense at all of what it was actually like to be there and witness the scene for myself, because the image just reeks of digital over-processing. Obviously this is largely the users’ fault, but every time I try and process two files side-by-side in LR and C1P10, if I do the test blind then the LR shot comes out looking worse, and more “digital-y”, while the C1P10 shot looks beautiful and natural. Only if I use the C1P10 image as a reference for LR, or even the original in-camera JPG, can I get the LR shot to truly represent what I feel is both realistic and beautiful.

    BTW, I’ve processed over 2M raw images in ACR over the last ~13 years, so I know how to finesse an NEF…

    • Vince Vinnyp

      Ehm 2M??

    • KC

      I simply cannot fathom Adobe’s vision of your 2M files residing in the “Adobe” cloud…

      • Allen_Wentz

        Agreed. I think a combination approach needs to evolve (Apple’s Photos is close). Full-sized fat files on local mass storage but linked via smaller 2 MP-sized files in the cloud.

        To that end SnapBridge is trying to go in the right direction.

      • 75-90% of those photo have no business ever going on the cloud in the first place, of course, due to culling and timelapse frame production. The rest I could see, but that’s still more bandwidth than I currently care to pay for with my ISP being both expensive and slow here in (certain parts of) Southern California.

        In short, maybe the cloud-based editing will be awesome one day, when I can cull locally and then cloud (that’s a verb) my keepers, produced files, and generally all the hard work that I put into things. Heck, I’ve stored my main LRCAT file in a Google Drive folder for 5+ years now, ironically, for backup purposes.

        But not now, and not for a few more years.

  • Visions

    You know what? The problem here is the almost infinite number of different RAW files format. Why can’t these camera manufactors just agree at one single universal RAW format? Seriously this is ridiculous! That’s why these software companies are continuously screwing with us.

    • br0xibear

      To be honest they’re all “screwing with us”.
      Their starting point doesn’t seem to be “how can we help photographers”, it’s “how can we make more money from photographers”.
      Maybe we should all start using DNG and JPEG only, and they can go f**k their RAWs, lol.

    • Allen_Wentz

      Camera manufacturers say their individual proprietary RAW algorithms allow them to provide better captures than the other guys.

      1) RAW is clearly a parameter that they do compete over. I encourage evolution and a universal standard would
      A) squelch that and
      B) benefit some entity, probably Adobe.

      2) In return for ever-better RAW captures I personally see no need to force vendors to a lowest-common-denominator product like DNG. Even if DNG was not simply a further Adobe attempt at market dominance.

  • Martin Merkel

    For myself, I increasingly get the impression that Adobe is primarily interested in fooling their customers, and once you get this feeling you are increasingly interested to jump ships. For me Lightroom 6 will have been the last product that I purchased from Adobe, and I had many. Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Dreamweaver, Acrobat…..

  • KC

    From Serif

    Affinity‏ @MacAffinity 11h hours ago

    We aren’t currently developing a DAM program, but we may in the future. 🙂

  • thanks for the update!

    • KC

      Yeah it saddens me that Serif has canceled the DAM. I’m sure it was a good strategic decision on their part. They will have a much larger revenue stream from their upcoming publisher relative to a DAM 🙁

      I understand that their development team is quite small so both products were just not in the cards…

      • KnightPhoto

        Speaking of which, wasn’t Photo Mechanic in progress on developing a DAM some years ago and then I never heard about it again. Anyone here know?

        Photo Mechanic is such a great ingest/cull tool I’d love to support them further.

      • Visions

        What about the next update of Luminar? It appears it will have a very credible DAM as well.
        I’m not a Mac user so i don’t know how good Luminar is, but apparently MacPhun is actually building a very good replacement for Lightroom, and it’s coming to Windows as well.
        But if it turns to be a good alternative then i will support them for sure.
        Let’s face it, having Adobe the monopoly is a bad thing for us customers. So it’s time to change this imho.

  • Michael

    With a 64gb SD card from the average photo session, I need 1 week to upload RAW files over average US cable uplink of 3-5Mbps? I think Lightroom CC is 20-30 years ahead of US internet service provider capability.

    • Sören Hese

      No! Adobe doesnt care about you – it cares about the millions of smartphone users – Adobe is not concerned about what the Pro Photographers do. The Pros will not give any profit – and Adobe is looking for massive profit. Thats one of the main reasons to leave Adobe when you are serious into photography – they do not care anymore for the Pros. Adobe Systems Incorporated likely also cares for their own company share – which is rising since a while nicely.

  • Looks like i will be sticking with LR5 and an additional raw to tiff converter when i get my D850

    • The D850 will be supported in the current LR6. The problem is for future cameras and lenses that will be announced after 2017. You (and me) have plenty of time to figure out a solution 🙂

      • But i’m on LR5.7.1 and not LR6

      • Andrew Lasala

        Peter- any updates on LR 6.13- today is 10/26. Not updating LR on my end- still showing 6.12

    • Vince Vinnyp

      D850 can shoot in Tiff, if that is what you want, but I would stick to raw and use the free Adobe NEF to DNG converter

  • Ed_Ritger

    Any idea when LRClassic with support tethering with D850? Adobe’s explanation is there is no 850 SDK from Nikon.

    • Van

      Use NX-D or C1. You will find the color profiles vastly better with either program than the interpretation by ACR of Nikon profiles and it will not cost you $10 per month for the rest of your life

  • I don’t need a Photoshop alternative I need a Lightroom alternative.

  • Lish Lash

    Hey Adobe, here’s some customer feedback: To hell with Beta-test guinea pig subscription fees.

    • You really have to pay to be a beta tester? Wow…

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