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Nikon D90s and Nikon D65

Last week someone posted a picture of Nikon D90s to one of the posts (obviously fake, but still entertaining - if they had gone with D900 instead, it would look much better):

Update: sorry the picture got removed from the original website - it was a photoshopped full frame D90 - you did not miss anything.

I also got some specs for a potential Nikon D65 (nothing reliable at that point, but we all know something similar is coming soon):

- 12mp CMOS
- 3fps
- 9 AF-points CAM 850, 1 Cross type
- 720p video
- Live view
- Dust reduction
- PMA 2009 release

I do find the name D65 plausible - there was already a Nikon F65 model.

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  • LSE

    haha FX d90. now that would be a nice fantasy.

    nikon should really add AF to their video mode. I cannot say how much I do not enjoy doing my own focus on the d90 video. And I probably try harder than most people will.

    • Sooner than later

      This will be a real product with 18 – 24 months. though it won’t look like that (where has the picture gone by the way?) and it certainly won’t be called a D90s.

      FX is the way forward and they will put it in that body as soon as market conditions and retail price point allow.

      I am prepared to bet one of my houses – I get to chose which one though – that the ‘replacement’ for the D90, when it comes, is FX.

      • Anonymous

        FX is not the only way to go. I still like my DX cameras thank you very much. Different requirements, different tools.

        • Sooner than later

          Wrong – and ultimately, you won’t have a say. In the same way that a camera company can simply stop producing film cameras, it can stop producing DX cameras – though a complete stop in production is some way off, it is coming – reasonable expectation is 5 years but no longer.

          Remember only the cost of production and high production attrition rates meant that DX (and the other cropped sensors) were ever introduced. Also, have you used a full frame camera? – nobody that does, ever wants to see those horrible DX viewfinders again. You are deluding yourself if you think DX has a long term future.

          I sold ALL my DX cameras and lenses before the bottom falls out of that market – its been a silly few years of faffing around with silly small viewfinders and thank goodness it is over. Sell now, before you are left with a very expensive door stop.

          Of course I have always used my old F3HP more than digital anyway – the quality is so much better.

          • F-mount size

            I’ve been working in Japan for 2 years, and I’ve read and hard many discussion about whether FullSize sensor will be the next dSLR standard or not, I visit several Japanese dSLR related news groups frequently and when it comes to this matter (after heated debate) comes to consensus agrement “FX sensor is too tight for Nikon’s F-mount”. Also, the many says the Canon’s mount has bit more capacity than Nikon’s, but in order to accommodate both 1.ideal light passege and 2.larger optics(to match the current FFsensor resolution) eventually both mount need to be re-designed.

            • FX to stay

              <>

              Dumbest “consensus” bunch of crap–if you didn’t know, there’s a “new” Nikon camera, uh, actually, THREE FX sensor cameras–in case you’ve been asleep for the past year plus, they are the D3, D3X and the D700. Yeah, if you check around, I heard some kinda positive reviews. Duh!!!!

              DX is dying, and will be dead within 5 years, IMHO. DX was and is marketing crap from the time when Nikon (and Sony and others) could not make a FX sensor (either affordably or at all) and could not compete with Canon head on–it was to sell a weakness as a sales asset. If DX was so good, Olympus would rule the photo world with its 4/3 Standard–but that’s not the case, is it?

            • Jason

              Nikon’s F-mount is too tight for FX sensors? I bet that really cramped their style when they briefly experimented with 35mm film . . .

            • F-mount size

              Film and Digital sensor are two different thing, needless to say the digital sensor’s much higher density. It’s obvious when you see their latest high-end zooms, the size of the lens get’s bigger and bigger.

          • Pablov

            you can sell “EVERYTHING” you have if you want, but it doesn’t necessarily reflect the future of a specific line of design and production.

            DX has a limitation, but it’s not “dying”.
            If it was dying Nikon wouldn’t release any new DX camera.
            And there is still space for DX new models between D300 and D700.

            Maybe Nikon already defined that keeping place for a D400, D500, D600. No one can be Really sure if the D500 and D600 will be DX format, but I guess there is a good chance.

            A company don’t do business only with the high-end devices. INSTEAD they can produce the high-end thanks to selling mid and low-end products.

            One VERY good thing is to watch the list of products the company has sold the most in the past years. They wouldn’t drop something they are selling well.

            Of course improvements and developments will change that path, but not drastically cutting the best selling lines because I would hurt their own business.

            Olympus does not have the ammount of lenses you can still use with a DX Nikon camera (Full frame lenses in a DX DSLR are perfectly compatible besides the 1.5x factor, and in some cases it is a benefit)

  • Anonymous

    My guess for the D60x is that the it will be a D60 with live view and video.

    But we’ll also hopefully see a new D40 also keeping it’s 6mp, but with awesome low light capabilities.

    As a consumer you’d have the choice between MP+Video or incredible low light performance.

    And as a typical D300 prosumer, you’d have the chance to pick up a second body for all evil low light situations. Or in case you simply don’t want to carry much.

    • Sooner than later

      awesome low light performance a la D3/ D700 requires FX sensor. Even only 6MP on a DX can’t do it – trust me, I am always right.

      Of course it is not impossible that Nikon does exactly that – it need only increase D40 size slightly if designed corrrectly.

      • Anonymous

        The noise you see is a result of the heat that is set free when the sensor is set to a high sensitivity.
        -> More pixel per mm² means more noise.

        the D700 has about 5,3mp in the DX area, but a lot more pixels surrounding this area,also creating heat.

        So, if they stay with a 6mp sensor, and team that up with today’s noise reduction, you will get excellent low light performance, no matter the size of the the sensor, almost matching the D700 noise level.

        • Sooner than later

          No, you’re wrong – worryingly so. Yikes! I could explain why but I don’ think you would understand.

          • Anonymous

            Oh, please enlighten us with your pure awesomeness, show us how you open the gate to a new area of physics and chemistry.
            Even though we’re not worthy to see the light!

            • Pablov

              this became like a kids discussion….

            • Michael

              This happens all too often. I work with children at church, they are not as childish as many adults here can get at times.

            • Astrophotographer

              I’ll reply. Thermal noise is fairly constant unless you do long exposures. It adds up over time. The main causes are a lower signal to noise ratio at high ISO. A more important issue is when less light is captured (high ISO) the fewer photons per pixel. The pixels will have a greater random distribution. A larger pixel means more photons captured and lower random distribution.

              In short, even if all thermal and read noise were eliminated the small sample of a small pixel means more noise.

          • ChrisL

            I think elementary arithmetic should be within the grasp of most people. Its merely a case of computing the sensor cell size for, say, a D3, a D300, and then a D40. Notice anything?

            • JC

              Yeah, you talk a lot.

  • ChrisL

    I find it very amusing when people bang on about how they want AF in video. Films use manual focus with a focus puller for a reason. Do you really want to watch a video where the focus snaps from one subject tothe next and hunts around? No, thought not.

    If a D90s does come out, it will likely be minor improvements (e.g. to reduce, but not eliminate, the effect of the rolling shutter). A whole new sensor is much less likely.

    • Sooner than later

      Spot on! Those who have been on a movie set or major production set know it is the norm for manual focus to be used… technology can’t reproduce those silky smooth – gentle – focus transitions.

      Still most people here are stills photographers so it is probably expecting much for you all to realize what goes on in the movies.

      • LSE

        sorry to burts your “i’m a real man who does MF” and because in film they use MF, EVERYTHING should be MF.

        you are both wrong. canon gave the 5DMII AF or the 90% of people who don’t care to MF their video and the option of doing so, should you want it.

        I’m sure nikon’s D90 isn’t targeting california studio camera operators either so your argument that “it’s how movies are made duh” is nothing sort of, lame :)

        So I’ll reword your argument a little:

        I find it very amusing when people bang on about how they NOT want AF in video. Films use manual focus with a focus puller for a reason (yet most people aren’t shooting feature films). Do you really want to watch a video where the focus snaps from one subject tothe next and hunts around? Yes you probably do unless you are into making a movie. In which case, a d90 won’t do.

        I guess you’re the kind of guys who drive manual cars because it’s the manly thing to do right? you’re both so funny.

        • Sooner than later

          No, I drive both, but when I want to experience driving – say on the mountain roads in Switzerland, Italy and France, I use my classic manual Jag – you just get such a more fulfilling experience and also, just that little bit more performance.

          On other hand, if I am on the autobahn, especially on the no speed limit sections in Germany, I enjoy the silky smooth V8 power from my E63 complete with automatic transmisson.

          Real drivers use manual – others don’t.

          Real artists use manual focus – and, well, others don’t.

          My most favourite camera ever, remains my trusty Nikon F3HP in mint condition AND – this really indicates how wastefully expensive digital is – I had it valued recently and was offered £750 by a very mean dealer – more than he is selling used D2xs and a just slightly used D700 was up for £995! Less than £250 more than my 25 year old F3HP!!! Times like these I realize how amazing I am!

          • LSE

            So because you like all, that that means nikon should keep doing MF on their low-end consumer oriented DSLRs (video or not)?

            sorry but I smell nonsense combined with BS.

            Reality check for you: AF-enabled DSLRs w/video are simply going to be the standard the way AF is taken for granted in most DSLRs sold by canon and nikon these days.

            and for guys who need to secure their manliness, well there is always that switch with the M on the lens.

          • bang

            >On other hand, if I am on the autobahn, >especially on the no speed limit >sections in Germany, I enjoy the silky >smooth V8 power from my E63 >complete with automatic transmisson.

            you mean while you are commuting to your job at the UPS warehouse you appreciate your automatic saturn better? I can see that.

            >Real drivers use manual – others don’t.
            So real man use abacuses and not calculators? haha you’re hysterical.

            >Real artists use manual focus – and, >well, others don’t.

            So if you are not using MF you’re not a real artist? I’m sure there are several thousand photographers far more accomplished than you, who make a living shooting AF. Man you gotta start your tv show. you’re goood.

            • Sooner than later

              Don’t know what a Saturn is? Except for my classic Jag, I only buy German cars – why would anyone buy anything else?

              Is it an American car? Americans can’t design or build cars that do anything but go in straight lines and do that so badly. Have you ever tried turning a corner in an American car? You are ludicrous. I think UPS are delivery service but don’t know of their depot near me – I do use TNT though and they are brilliant – never lost anything or had delays with them – not sure if you have them in US but they are good.

              Are you jealous that I am successful and know what I am talking about?

              “So real man use abacuses and not calculators? haha you’re hysterical.”

              YOU ARE MAKING MY ARGUMENT FOR ME NOW – A REAL MAN CAN USE BOTH! – AN IDIOT HAS TO USE THE CALCULATOR – THINK OF MY OWN CAR ANALOGY – KEEP UP, I KNOW YOU ARE STRUGGLING, I WILL GO SLOWER AND KEEP WRITING IN CAPITALS FOR YOU IF THAT HELPS.

              SERIOUSLY IF THAT IS THE BEST YOU CAN DEBATE, YOU SHOULD MAYBE STOP. EEK!

              I DOUBT THERE ARE SEVERAL THOUSAND PHOTOGRAPHERS MORE ACCOMPLISHED THAN ME – THERE ARE SOME THAT I ADMIT ARE BETTER AND THAT I HAVE SO MUCH RESPECT FOR. INTERESTINGLY THOUGH THEY ARE ALL ARTISTS (PROPER ARTISTS, THAT IS!!) FIRST – THEY VERY OFTEN HAVE A BACKGROUND IN PAINTING BEFORE THEY EVER PICKED UP A CAMERA.

              MOST PHOTOGRAPHERS HAVE MERELY MASTERED THE EASIEST ART OF ALL (AND IT IS THAT – THAT IS FACT, AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH ANY OF WHAT I SAY BUT PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE EASIEST OF THE ARTS TO MASTER) AND THE BLOOD HAS RUSHED TO THEIR HEAD AS A RESULT – THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS THEY HAVE ENDLESS DISCUSSIONS ON THEIR EQUIPMENT – RATHER LIKE THE POORLY ENDOWED MAN WHO HAS TO BUY A FERRARI TO COMPENSATE.

              THERE IS A VERY FAMOUS QUOTE, ONE OF MY FAVORITES IN FACT… “WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO ARTISTS AND TWO PHOTOGRAPHERS?……… TWO ARTISTS CAN GET TOGETHER WITHOUT DISCUSSING BRUSHES.

              SO IN SHORT, YES A TRUE ARTIST USES MANUAL AND THE IDIOT/AMATEUR DOES NOT OR CANNOT GET THEIR BRAIN TO UNDERSTAND THIS. OF COURSE THE TRUE ARTIST CAN – AND KNOWS HE CAN – SWITCH TO AUTOFOCUS ANYTIME BUT CHOOSES NOT TO, THUS MAKING HIMSELF EVEN MORE GREAT – LIKE ME AND MY FRIENDS.

  • LSE

    either way watch the next nikon video SRL have AF on video mode. Just like the canon. Sorry but you guys got some pretty messed up ideas of how consumer electronics are marketed and sold.

    • Sooner than later

      You’re hilarious – I have spent 20 years doing just that! I now concentrate on economics after selling my European based marketing company for the equivalent of US$1.6m!

      La, de, da! No credit crunch for me!

      • LSE

        well I suggest you get a job at canon and make them take AF off their video DSLRs.

        you obviously think that nikon’s D90 is made the way it is due to the way film hardware costing several times more is.

        Honestly, there is a word for you: denial. DSLRs with video are going to AF because its what will sell beter than the alternative. Sorry bud. good luck with that job!

        • Paulo

          You’re right about AF on DSLRs though Sooner than Later is right about the DX v FX debate above. No future for DX and lots of people now feel cheated that they invested in DX glass – the expensive stuff – and now take a hit on that.

          Those that say it has a future are just fooling themselves – when was the last SERIOUS DX lens introduced? Not cheapo kit lenses that they can throw together (and usually do) but quality optics?

          Personally I wish I had stayed 35mm film until they introduced the D700 as I would have saved tens of thousands!

          I know I feel a bit cheated and though I now love the big viewfinder again, I could have lived with DX, but feel they took everyone for a ride. But hey, that’s marketing isn’t it and we do live in this throw away society which we will come to regret eventually.

      • bang

        haha, sure. And what you do with all that money is trolling around rummor sites posting silly comments. riiight.

        hey I have a bridge to sell you. It is in alaska.

    • Sooner than later

      What’s an SRL? Is this a new camera design?

  • Later Than Sooner

    Sorry guys, Sooner Than Later go out of the lunitic home and back onto computers. I’m sorry, I’m here to take him back to his padded room where he can rant about how right and awesome he is where it won’t annoy other people. Since clearly his opinions are indeed fact. *rolls eyes*

    Cmon boy get the bone! good boy.

    • neon

      take a picture of him. I’d love to send him a postcard.

  • Shill

    Why do I get the feeling Sooner than Later is messing with you all… playing the role of a Sock Puppet while there are no rumors to divert us. Looks like he (or she) went fishing and you all made straight for the hook! Not taking the comments seriously – and I don’t think they are supposed to be taken so – I think they are hilarious. Made me laugh anyway – almost, dare I say it a parody on the great man himself – Ken Rockwell.

    Later than Sooner – excellent. Think you may have realized what Sooner than Later was up to.

    • Later Than Sooner

      Yes, yes i did. The same type of BLEEPING trolls that hang out at sites like DPreview et al.

      Just annoying and pointless to argue with.

  • channeljockey

    I think there’s a terminology problem in this argument over AF. I don’t think most people who buy a D90 for the movie mode, or the 5D MKII for the movie mode are actually going to make movies; I think they’re going to make clips. Think kids’ birthday parties, reunions, picnics – events like that. Short 30s clips that will be strung together with software package X or Y, music added and the final masterpiece either burned to a DVD to give to grandma, or posted on ‘Tube or flickr or what have you. Flickr, as an aside, only currently allows 90s clips so forget about posting movies. Back to the point at hand: while professionals could probably make some awesome movies with these cameras, remember that the demos posted by the manufacturers are actually clips. not movies. Will they all go AF? If you’re making clips and not movies, I think that’s what consumers want. Consumers want things easier, not harder. AF is easier than MF just as an automatic transmission is easier than an stick-shift.
    Just my 2c (not $1.6M ;-) )

    • Pablov

      Right, clips. Although a Movie is made by “clips” of just few seconds or minutes (sequences)

      But nobody thinks about making Hollywood class movies with a D90 or 5D MK II, that is obvious, but maybe a short.

      Besides the final production one can make with this kind of Movie/Video tools, I want to say something about AF & MF in Video/Movie mode:

      Manual AND Auto Focus has their OWN place and time.

      Sometimes MF is necessary, other AF can do a better and faster job (also in still photography). It’s that simple.

      Manual Focusing on small 3″ or even 4″ LCD screen can NOT deliver perfect focusing because of the size of the image your are viewing.
      So far the image being recorded in Video mode in a DSLR is displayed only in the LCD screen.

      THAT IS another reason why AF or “Focusing Assistance” is (could be) SO usefull and important in Video mode.

      Focus tracking indicators on a subject or point will help a lot.

      And of course there is the marketing reason, like channeljockey said, consumers also want AF on video, and they can have good reasons for that.

      BUT AF in Video must NOT override or eliminate the Manual Focus because it would limitate the creative possibilities, making it just like a home-like camcorder, useless for Professional use.

      Both modes has their own place and should be implemented.

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