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1. 

   photoguru2
   

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   Hello all

   I am a collegiate photographer working for a student newspaper on a large campus. The paper is completely independent from the University, and is entirely student-run. The newspaper is forcing all photographers to sign an agreement essentially making the paper the sole author of our work, termed "work made for hire" in the contract. This term is specific in that under the Copyright Act, as amended under Title 17, anything we photograph is the property of the newspaper--no dual rights are granted at all. Is this something that I should sign? Do photographers for large newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post do the same work, that gives that particular paper the full rights to the photographs, ripping the photographer of any residual copyright?

   I am in a bind, and do not know how to proceed. Basically what this does: it discourages us, as the photographers for the paper, from submitting our best work to the paper for fear that if we do get a photo that is worthy of national notoriety, we have relinquished all our rights, and the paper benefits directly.

   I know you all are much more versed in such topics. Any help would be appreciated.

   -Josh

   Posted 8 months ago #
2. 

   Gareth
   

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   I don't have first hand knowledge, but I'd say that that is probably standard.

   Posted 8 months ago #
3. 

   msmoto
   

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   There are multiple threads on copyrights on NRF. This is one more unique situation and here is a link which may provide the answer and was previously provided on one of the other threads.

   http://www.photoattorney.com/?p=1492

   Your question regarding the photographers for large newspapers is good. Maybe asking the specific newspaper this in a phone call to the photo editor or the legal department would help you n this regard. Call National Geographic and some of the wire services as well.

   I would suggest you do a search of the forum for "copyright" see if you find an answer, and at least for the present we will keep this thread going and maybe an attorney on NRF will offer some wise advice.

   Posted 8 months ago #
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   bjrichus
   

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   As someone who has done photo work for my employer (a state run 4 year university), the "by default" position, is that everything I do while on my employers time is owned by them.

   In more recent years, we have tried to encourage more students to get involved and perform more roles. The people who run the student newspaper also have a contract for students to sign.

   Whatever the rights and wrongs of the current copyright laws, I suspect that unless you want to see this through the legal system, as a student doing "work" for the student newspaper, you may just have to accept that you will be subject to the same kind of rules. It is one of those tough lessons in life that your student masterpieces (i.e. the 30th portrait of the university president you took this month, shaking hands with someone who'll never be on campus again), may end up being owned by your Alma-mater.

   It's not so bad as it sounds however as if you note my opening remark... "is that everything I do while on my employers time is owned by them." It is truly amazing that I find I always seem to do my best work when I am NOT on my employers time. As an 'art' photographer, what interests me is not what interests my employer. It's a very symbiotic relationship.

   Posted 8 months ago #
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   Mike Gunter
   

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   photoguru2 said:

   I am in a bind, and do not know how to proceed. Basically what this does: it discourages us, as the photographers for the paper, from submitting our best work to the paper for fear that if we do get a photo that is worthy of national notoriety, we have relinquished all our rights, and the paper benefits directly.

   Hi,

   I was an wire service photographer and a combat photographer for the Army in Vietnam prior to the 1976 Copyright Law, none of the pictures were mine, furthermore, later I was teacher/adviser of student newspapers, perhaps not like yours, since yours seems to be independent of the school, that is without faculty advice.

   The last of my worries would that your images would be tremendously fought over by news or other agents. That just doesn't happen without a full-time sales effort, and you should be putting on a full-time school/quarter-time photography effort.

   IMHO, if you have a job and an outlet to get some experience, you should be counting blessing rather than considering the unlikelihood of national exposure.

   You certainly can ask for rights to be returned to you for your portfolio and future sale.

   My best,

   Mike

   Posted 8 months ago #
6. 

   Nikoner
   

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   I was there five years ago, where you are right now (working for a large university paper as a photographer, while majoring in a totally unrelated stream). I did not sign any contract, but the unspoken understanding was that my photos were my property. I can do with them whatever I want, once submitted to the paper, I can still - sell it to the athletic dept, sell it to parent, sell it to athlete, put it on my portfolio, put them on toilet paper and wipe my behind with it, or whatever. In turn they got the right of multiple use. In fact many of my pictures are still being printed by the paper's latest edition as "file photos" - but I only got paid once for it.

   If you are not a salaried employee of the paper, your work is your own.

   Posted 8 months ago #
7. 

   photoguru2
   

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   Nikoner said:

   If you are not a salaried employee of the paper, your work is your own.

   Thanks for the responses. That is where I differ. I feel that if I am an employee not being paid, the work should be mine. That's the point of contention. I am not being paid for any of this work, and yet I forfeit all the rights to the work. I should have mentioned this in the original post.

   Posted 8 months ago #
8. 

   msmoto
   

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   I guess I do not understand the agreement you have with the school. You are giving the photos to the school, without charge, yet they want to have you sign over all rights to the free photos. Is this what I think you said?

   Are you using your own camera? Are you being given some special privilege when you photograph events? Like free admission, freedom to move around unrestricted, etc. Is there any other benefit you receive as a result of shooting these "free" photos?

   If, there is absolutely no benefit to you, no financial gain, no educational academic credit, no publication in a highly read (circulation of >5,000) piece, then I cannot imagine anyone would sign the agreement. Maybe you can obtain a copyright for your photos, and then let the school know all the material is copyright protected and they use it only with your permission.

   Posted 8 months ago #
9. 

   Nikoner
   

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   Typical transaction:

   I would shoot an entire game.
   Monday morning I would sit with sports editor and go through the entire collection of photos.
   He would select the ones he thinks might go with the articles running for that week.
   Tuesday morning paper would be on stands.
   Wednesday meeting I would identify my photos from the ones that printed, and submit a timesheet.
   Get paid in 2 weeks time as per the timesheet.

   The ones selected but not printed would remain with sports editor for later use, but I will get paid if & when printed for the first time.
   If any of the previously printed images are re-printed in new edition, they will print as "file photos" and I would not claim them on timesheet.
   Suppose I leave the paper and they print one of mine "never-before-printed" from the sports editor's collection, I will not get paid for it since I am no longer on contract - that I would magnanimously write off as bad-debt.

   Posted 8 months ago #
10. 

    bjrichus
    

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    photoguru2 said:
    This term is specific in that under the Copyright Act, as amended under Title 17, anything we photograph is the property of the newspaper--no dual rights are granted at all.

    I'm going to update my response... As Mike suggests: "You certainly can ask for rights to be returned to you for your portfolio and future sale" and feel happy just to get the experience as payment.

    I get a salary, pension, paid leave & health insurance, 3rd party insurance, accreditation, some loaner gear and so on for my efforts but you won't get that apart from the experience and be able to say you did it. Will doing it add to your grades?

    All work is a balance between doing the job and getting the reward for it. Only you can decide if the work and rewards involved balance out in favor for you.

    Posted 8 months ago #
11. 

    photoguru2
    

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    msmoto said:
    I guess I do not understand the agreement you have with the school. You are giving the photos to the school, without charge, yet they want to have you sign over all rights to the free photos. Is this what I think you said?

    Are you using your own camera? Are you being given some special privilege when you photograph events? Like free admission, freedom to move around unrestricted, etc. Is there any other benefit you receive as a result of shooting these "free" photos?

    If, there is absolutely no benefit to you, no financial gain, no educational academic credit, no publication in a highly read (circulation of >5,000) piece, then I cannot imagine anyone would sign the agreement. Maybe you can obtain a copyright for your photos, and then let the school know all the material is copyright protected and they use it only with your permission.

    I am giving the newspaper--a daily, entirely student-run, and independent from the school itself--the photos, though the name of the school is included in its title, and is the only paper for the University. I am occasionally given privileges to photograph concerts, events, etc. that are outside the purview of a typical student but during most (around 95%) assignments, I do not have special rights. I own my own camera, the D3S and some f/2.8 fixed aperture lenses which amounts to nearly $10k of equipment as you all know. I have no financial gain by contributing to the newspaper. I am an unpaid "contributor" as it's deemed in the contract. The contract stipulates, explicitly in fact, that I can never re-obtain the rights to the photos.

    bjrichus said:
    ...Will doing it add to your grades?

    All work is a balance between doing the job and getting the reward for it. Only you can decide if the work and rewards involved balance out in favor for you.

    Nope, it won't add to my grades. It is just an extra curricular I do, in addition to a photo business I created on campus. I get a lot of experience, meet new people, perhaps most importantly make connections, through the paper but I wanted to see what you all, who are much more experienced and wiser than I had to think.

    Posted 8 months ago #
12. 

    bjrichus
    

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    photoguru2 said:
    I am giving the newspaper--a daily, entirely student-run, and independent from the school itself--the photos, though the name of the school is included in its title, and is the only paper for the University. I am occasionally given privileges to photograph concerts, events, etc. that are outside the purview of a typical student but during most (around 95%) assignments, I do not have special rights. I own my own camera, the D3S and some f/2.8 fixed aperture lenses which amounts to nearly $10k of equipment as you all know. I have no financial gain by contributing to the newspaper. I am an unpaid "contributor" as it's deemed in the contract. The contract stipulates, explicitly in fact, that I can never re-obtain the rights to the photos.

    Nope, it won't add to my grades. It is just an extra curricular I do, in addition to a photo business I created on campus. I get a lot of experience, meet new people, perhaps most importantly make connections, through the paper but I wanted to see what you all, who are much more experienced and wiser than I had to think.

    Wiser?

    Sometimes.

    My feeling is that the people who run the student newspaper are overstepping the mark.

    I'd be tempted not to work under the contract they are offering. It sounds very unhelpful towards the photographer and his needs and of course, the view held by many parts of the media is that one photographer can easily be replaced by another -- there are many "unwashed" out there willing to work for nothing and give away all rights.

    As I said earlier, you need to balance the benefit (if any) against the risk and cost. Its a business, finance and ethics decision. You need to decide.

    Posted 8 months ago #
13. 

    msmoto
    

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    @ photoguru2 This is a confusing venue. I suppose you are gaining some experience, and you wil most likely not be taking any Pulitzer Prize winning photos just like almost all of us. At some point, you may wish to obtain a photo assignment which pays money and has more clearly specified rights.

    Personally, I would not do work for a group for free who says they want the rights to my free photos. I give away a lot of photos, but all the rights are retained by me although I allow others the use of the photos. If this school has a legal department, maybe they can offer an opinion.

    Posted 8 months ago #
14. 

    tcole1983
    

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    Never having had a situation like this...looking from the outside it is a no brainer to me. I would never sign something giving them total rights to my photography being provided for free. I see no reason that your unpaid contributions should be their property. I would ask for a different contract or not do it. Not that every or any picture for that fact will ever be used again or possibly award winning, but to have no rights to the pictures is over the line when it is your equipment and you are getting no compensation. IMO they should be happy to have someone with nice camera gear willing to take pictures for them and allowing them to use those pictures for free...because photography equipment and time are not free.

    Posted 8 months ago #
15. 

    Mike Gunter
    

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    tcole1983 said:
    Never having had a situation like this...looking from the outside it is a no brainer to me. I would never sign something giving them total rights to my photography being provided for free. I see no reason that your unpaid contributions should be their property. I would ask for a different contract or not do it. Not that every or any picture for that fact will ever be used again or possibly award winning, but to have no rights to the pictures is over the line when it is your equipment and you are getting no compensation. IMO they should be happy to have someone with nice camera gear willing to take pictures for them and allowing them to use those pictures for free...because photography equipment and time are not free.

    Hi all,

    + 1

    @photoguru2 - My students who worked on the newspaper earned college credit and some earned scholarships and some good ones, too. My words had that in mind.

    While links to profit sites frowned upon, this link is a non profit for the Associate College Press. The site has a lot of information concerning how papers should be run.

    http://www.studentpress.org/acp/

    Moreover, the Student Press Law Center has a lot of information as to the disposition of legal matters of student media that you might find useful.

    http://www.splc.org/

    Personally, I don't know if the job of working for the paper would be worth it or not.

    Where is the line drawn concerning other responsibilities? Do what is news and how to prepare pictures for publication - what kind of training have you had? There are credibility as well as jeopardy issues.

    Your equipment could be a problem, too. Should you get robbed on the job, or 'detained' and your equipment broken.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 8 months ago #
16. 

    TaoTeJared
    

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    There was a recent court case that was just settled that probably helped prompt some of this. It was a photo of a bear that fell out of a tree that a student photographer (working for the university paper) got a photo of. It went viral, was used in some Asian add campaign and the student who came on mid-term had not signed a contract. The university paper was trying to collect royalties on the photo. Student sued the paper/university and won the rights to the photo all due to the lack of the contract.

    Don't kid yourself, the Paper is part of the university - oversight, budget, etc. maybe separate but they "own" it. Either way it doesn't matter much or make a difference in the situation.

    If you want the job sign the contract - there isn't a choice. It is as simple as that. Contracts like that exist with any and every job that is worthwhile. You will gain much more through experience than any single photo you take will ever make you.

    What to be sure to do is to get in writing where the Paper's photographs end, and your personal stuff begins. If it is their gear - that is easy, just don't shoot personal stuff with it. If it is your own gear, make sure to log the events and begin and end of the file name sequence and have your editor sign off on it when you deliver the images. That way if some question comes up, it is clear where that line is. It's just like logging mileage on your car to be reimbursed on. It is very doubtful they will let you cherry pick images of an event they sent you too for your own use. If you are somewhere by their request, then it is theirs. If they want to cherry pick from your images, and you get to keep the rest (most ideal for you) then log the file name they are taking. If you have a similar photo (say a 5 frame burst shot of something and they pick what they feel is the best one) you can point to the different file names to show it is a different image. Again, log it & have them sign, or initial what they take. As always, make sure to ask if you can use images for a personal portfolio for future employers as well.

    What I have bumped into for the college world series is the NCAA rules for shooting games as part of a Paper/organization with a press pass (not a general ticket holder/spectator) on the court/sidelines are quite strict to protect the athletes. What I understand, the paper can protect you until you start using images for your own use. Some have told me there are some massive teeth that come out if you break their rules and huge fines. Evidently the NCAA is not shy from suing the pants off of photographers who break their rules. It could be that is just something for the CWS, but something to look into. The one photographer I know who has shot for it for 4-5 years now, said she gets a 600+page contract each year to sign. Keep in mind, ignorance is not a defense in court.

    Mike points out a great concern about insurance of your gear as well. Today at a FB game I saw a sideline photog get wiped out and his nice shiny white canon bazooka lens was turned into a a movie sequel - Part I and Part II.

    I say take the gig, allow them to get you access to experiences you couldn't get otherwise so you can build a portfolio for later. I respect other's opinions not to sign something like that, but many of them are established and have the experience already - something you do not and are much harder to get on your own.

    Posted 8 months ago #
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    Mike Gunter
    

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    Hi TTJ,

    You point out some of the issues, but it's incredibly complicated - that's why I posted two links and ran. ;-)

    Typically, in the course of pursuing a journalism major, a student will work on a student newspaper all 8 semesters.

    My guess is that there is advisory oversight at the paper, and there is a journalism teacher who is familiar with the requirements of the Student Press who can offer advise to 2Photoguru, although that advise might be hard to take.

    Neither is it trivial what 2photoguru needs to know to work at the paper. He will be shooting news which is very specific.

    I would be interested in how he shoots now. RAW or JPEG and what software he edits with.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 8 months ago #
18. 

    Beso
    

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    photoguru2 - I see two issues here: 1) legal issues and copyright law; and 2) your own personal choices about what you do and the decisions you make. While there is much information regarding copyright law available I question how unpaid activity constitutes "work for hire" since there is no equitable exchange of value - typically necessary for contractual rights. Nevertheless, here is a good link to information: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

    As far as your choices are concerned, obviously you are troubled by the newspaper's demand. In my opinion the issue boils down to: Does your work have commercial value and does the experience gained fairly "compensate" you for the value given? Only you can decide.

    Personally I would never sign away my rights under a "work for hire" agreement if I wasn't being compensated. I think that is just asking too much from someone who is already allowing free use of their work.

    Posted 8 months ago #
19. 

    Tom Gresham
    

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    Quick background -- I've made my living writing for and selling photographs to magazines for many years.

    Your photos have value. If they didn't, the publication would not use them.

    Does the publication sell advertising? Is anyone getting paid? If so, why should you give away your work?

    Simply put, if there is a choice, I would tell them I don't give away all rights to MY photos. Period. Why would they want all rights (which is what a "work for hire" is)? Because they think there is value in them or might be.

    If you are getting paid, and you thing that payment is enough to cover any potential value to the photos, then sign it.

    If you are not geting paid, forget it. Never sign a work for hire agreement. Why would you?

    Again, your work has value. Get fully compensated for your work.

    Posted 8 months ago #
20. 

    warprints
    

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    Generally, if you are a captive photographer (an employee), the photos you take for your employer belong to your employer. As noted above, employees usually get paid, get benefits, etc.

    Personally, I would not agree to be an unpaid employee of any publication that got all the benefits of the employment relationship (ownership of the photos), while I got virtually none.

    Posted 8 months ago #
21. 

    photoguru2
    

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    Mike Gunter said:
    My guess is that there is advisory oversight at the paper, and there is a journalism teacher who is familiar with the requirements of the Student Press who can offer advise to 2Photoguru, although that advise might be hard to take.

    No we are completely independent from the University. There is absolutely no advice from the school. We have a private Board of Directors, editorial staff, and editor. All the money comes from alumni and advertisement in the paper. In fact the paper's offices, and editorial staff, are located several miles from any property owned by the school.

    Beso said:
    photoguru2 - I see two issues here: 1) legal issues and copyright law; and 2) your own personal choices about what you do and the decisions you make. While there is much information regarding copyright law available I question how unpaid activity constitutes "work for hire" since there is no equitable exchange of value - typically necessary for contractual rights. Nevertheless, here is a good link to information: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

    Exactly. I feel that something of this nature cannot be classified as "work for hire" because there is no compensation at all. I am not employed, have no employment contract, and make no money from the paper.

    Posted 8 months ago #
22. 

    Mike Gunter
    

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    Hi,

    "No we are completely independent from the University. There is absolutely no advice from the school. We have a private Board of Directors, editorial staff, and editor. All the money comes from alumni and advertisement in the paper. In fact the paper's offices, and editorial staff, are located several miles from any property owned by the school."

    You don't have any adult supervention? Then none of you know what you are doing?

    It seems like a very easy answer. You really don't want to play with those kids; at some point, someone is going to get hurt.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 8 months ago #
23. 

    Wataru
    

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    As TaoTeJared points out, if you want the job, sign the contract.

    If you take an "Afghan Girl" or a "Sailor Kissing a Nurse", see an attorney about the validity of a contract with no mutual consideration. You may have a case that they can't own something they have not compensated you for. The paper will want to cut a deal rather than go to court.

    Posted 8 months ago #
24. 

    iris chrome
    

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    My 2 cents worth:

    Just don't do it. If something doesn't feel right with you then just don't do it. From the looks of it, it sounds to me that even if you accepted and signed the contract, you'll always have that nagging thought in the back of your mind that you're working for free AND being cheated out.

    A few questions to ponder: are you trying to get into photojournalism specifically or photography in general? Are there any other newspapers in the area that you can volunteer for that wouldn't impose that kind of contract? Have you considered working/assisting for a local studio/photographer instead?

    Posted 8 months ago #
25. 

    iris chrome
    

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    Oh BTW, I've done volunteer work for my university's paper back when I was in college and I can tell you this is not the norm. We did the volunteering on a per assignment basis and we didn't have any contracts involved. My photos always remained property but the paper was given permission to publish them, that's all.

    Posted 8 months ago #

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