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R8R

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Ok I've shot my first wedding recently. Well not the first ever, but I was the main photographer. (it was for a friend) I rented a few lenses and brought my usual kit (D7k, two speedlights, etc)

The pics actually came out pretty damn good. (even though it was at mid day in full sun during the ceremony, with NO shade...specular hell)

Here's the weird thing...I really enjoyed it. Like I might even want to take a shot at doing it on a regular basis, and eventually maybe make some money at it. (gasp!) I used to do corporate event lighting and stage production, so the 'do it right the first time' environment really appealed to me. I kinda dug the stress.

I live in California wine country, so there are no shortages of weddings here from spring through fall. I would do at least 10-20 second-shooter or assistant gigs before I attempt going solo.

So I am going to build a good "wedding package", as that will also serve as a general package for use with other photo projects for my band, other bands, maybe video, etc. (portraits, low light, group shots, etc)

So - if anyone has a second, please post your thoughts about what a bare-bones wedding kit should be, (body, lenses, lighting, accessories, etc) and also what an "ideal" kit would be. Also, and this might be even more enlightening, post what you think is a waste of time to have in a kit. (everyone has those "why the f*ck do I carry this around?" moments....)

So here is the general kit I was looking at to get started:
FF body. Maybe a D700 or if I can find a steal, a D3. I'll use my D7000 in the meantime, and then as backup.
Wide angle zoom. Tokina 16-28 f/2.8 or similar. (can't afford a Nikkor 14-24 yet)
Normal prime like a Nikon 50mm f/1.8 (I rented an f/1.4 - meh, didn't see the point of it)
Short tele for portraits, maybe a 85mm f/1.8G
Tele zoom. Can't afford the 70-200mm VR, so I'll be looking at an older 80-200mm f/2.8D or something. (I had one, the 2-ring, loved it)
I have a SB-700 and SB-800, stands, umbrellas, etc. Looking at the PW Flex TTL stuff, as just the Nikon CLS can be tricky under less-than-controlled conditions.

Thoughts?

Posted 10 months ago #
R8R

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Oh and I am waiting on the D600 announcement before pulling any triggers on buying another body.

Posted 10 months ago #
iris chrome

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R8R said:
So here is the general kit I was looking at to get started:
FF body. Maybe a D700 or if I can find a steal, a D3. I'll use my D7000 in the meantime, and then as backup.
Wide angle zoom. Tokina 16-28 f/2.8 or similar. (can't afford a Nikkor 14-24 yet)
Normal prime like a Nikon 50mm f/1.8 (I rented an f/1.4 - meh, didn't see the point of it)
Short tele for portraits, maybe a 85mm f/1.8G
Tele zoom. Can't afford the 70-200mm VR, so I'll be looking at an older 80-200mm f/2.8D or something. (I had one, the 2-ring, loved it)
I have a SB-700 and SB-800, stands, umbrellas, etc. Looking at the PW Flex TTL stuff, as just the Nikon CLS can be tricky under less-than-controlled conditions.

Thoughts?

Congrats on your first successful wedding shoot! I'm looking forward to at least give it a try sometime in the near future.

What about the 16-35mm f/4G? It's only a couple hundred dollars more than the Tokina and frankly I think it's better suited for weddings than the 14-24 and specially if you'll be switching to FX. Plus you'll be able to attach filters on it which you can't with the 14-24.

The 85mm f/1.8G is just excellent. I use it on my D7000 and just love the perspective it gives. On FX it might be too wide for my portait tastes though as I think FOV would be similar to 50mm on DX which I don't like much. Another lens to consider is the 105mm 2.8 Micro. A little more money but worth every penny.

80-200 is probably going to be much better for you than any of the 70-200 iterations. The first 70-200 suffers from very bad vignetting on FX while the second version has VERY bad focus breathing.

Another lens I'd strongly consider is the 24-70 f/2.8 which is just amazing or if you don't want to spend that much yet then the 24-120 f/4 which I hear is good.

Posted 10 months ago #
sevencrossing

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As you will have found, the decisive moment occurs just when you are changing lanes
so a mid rage zoom is essential. 24 -120 f4 works for me

Tokina 16-28 f/2.8 should be fine, I use a 16 -35 f4

Can't afford the 70-200mm VR, with a 24 -120 do need one ?

I would recommend two identical bodies,

and IMHO you do need an 1.4 prime, for times you cannot use flash

at least 3 flashes preferably identical ( one as a spare)

Cant afford the tools to do the job? fine, but do the bride a favor, let her know you dont have the kit to capture the most important day of her life

Posted 10 months ago #
msmoto

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My comment is about the generic idea of "getting started" in a business which is in the eye of the public. If you want to be an "inexpensive" wedding photographer, then by all means skimp on the equipment and produce the final product that wedding photographers produce. On the other hand, if you have been told you have the ability and the talent to be an outstanding wedding photographer, the one everyone wants, then the requirements are different.

To start in any business requires a lot of money and the expectation of making any profit must be based upon the guidelines which are taught in a good small business course at your community college. The idea we know how to run a business because we can push a button on a camera makes little sense.

If serious about shooting weddings, D4, D800, D700 maybe for a "backup", wide prime like the 24mm f/1.4 or 28mm f/1.8 or 16-35, 14-24 zoom. Mid range either 24-120 or 24-70. The 70-200 is a must. Also, the 35mm f/1.4 is good walk around "in the dark" and the 85mm f/1.8 for the candid portraits. Maybe a 105... Always keep a zoom on one body and either a zoom or a prime on the other so you are ready for an opportunity which may arise. And, flash can be held in one hand with a soft box in the "total darkness" situations where you want a shot, or in horrid backlight. But, the understanding of the work flow is most important. You need to know where everyone is at any one time. I always had at least one or two assistants, one to watch out for my errors and the other to gather the tools. Lighting requires a lot of redundancy as well. Studio strobes with umbrellas where my favorite as it was hard to make a mistake for the groups. Lots of power was my motto.

Having said all that..it is easy to see about $25,000 going to someone before going out the door, but, the first wedding you do will be seen by a lot of folks. And if it is a mind bender...really great, you will be talked about. If you messed up, talked about behind closed doors...

Just something to think about. And, remember they never like to redo these things... kinda like the photogs at the Olympics...look at their "kit".

Please accept this from an old lady who rarely does anything but play now....

Posted 10 months ago #
sevencrossing

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msmoto said:

Please accept this from an old lady who rarely does anything but play now....

You may be an old lady but your advice is clearly based on experience, and is absolutely first class

R8R ignore it at your peril

Posted 10 months ago #
R8R

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msmoto said:

Please accept this from an old lady who rarely does anything but play now....

Note where I stated above that I would work assisting and second shooting after I get a decent kit together. I have no intention of going into this blindly.

Posted 10 months ago #
sevencrossing

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R8R said:
Note where I stated above that I would work assisting and second shooting after I get a decent kit together. I have no intention of going into this blindly.

in which case i get ONE really good camera D800 or D4 and ONE really good lens
24 -70 f 2.8 or
24 -120 f 4 or
24 f1.4

and TWO really good flashes SB 910's or Quantum's with battery packs and yes PW is a really good idea, if you are using off camera flash

that way, your second shots have the potential be as good or better* than the number one

* beware, taking better shots than the number one, is really way to to piss him off

Posted 10 months ago #
msmoto

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@R8R

If shooting as a second shooter, your kit is fine. The Tokina is a great lens and is discussed here

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=7572

But, I would always have two cameras on me. Both with the settings for the situation. And, I like the use of the wide lenses...carefully. Place heads near the center third unless the lens is held level, then keep near the middle. Do a lot of practice with these... maybe in crowds at the mall, look at the heads and decide on how far "out" you can be with a lens. Maybe the new 28 f/1.8 would be a good "normal" for the D7000. Fast enough to keep the ISO down. The primary thing is to shoot lots of exposures and then edit these yourself. Throw out a photo for ANY reason. If I am shooting candids, I shoot in bursts of sometimes 10 FPS, five shots and this eliminates the blink issue. But, edit viciously. Do not let any garbage out of your control. As an example, if you go to PAD, click on my post of the cat, look at my photostream on Flickr...these are "snapshots". As professional end products about 10-20% would be presented to the client at most. Do not let someone else do your editing.

Again, this is only my viewpoint. And please, it is only as valid as one decides for oneself. If anyone likes the idea that is good. If I am full of bologna, so be it.

Posted 10 months ago #
R8R

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sevencrossing said:

* beware, taking better shots than the number one, is really way to to piss him off

If / when I get to that point, I think I can live with it.

Posted 10 months ago #
bjrichus

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R8R said:
If / when I get to that point, I think I can live with it.

Now *THAT'S* a photog with the kind of attitude that will either give you a reputation that will need a lot of work to overcome, or blast the competition to kingdom come. Think carefully about the response you give in those situations ... You don't want to shrug it all off as sour grapes on the part of #1 shooter (who will be looking to defend his patch), but you do want to leverage it to your advantage. Remember that at some point in time, if you do make it in this game, that some young punk will be doing the same as you are now and how this is handled right now will help to influence how those around you (remember the venue staff are also your customers or at the very least can generate leads), will think about you.

And as Mrs.M says, one body isn't going to cut it. Minimum kit I have seen used by the "good" guys is two bodies, spare batteries (fully charged both for camera and speedlights), two speedlight plus stands and/or assistant (LOL) and at the least a wide to medium zoom on one body and a medium to long zoom on the other. A third body with the fast prime is great for grab shots in the dark (and indoor weddings get dark as the night goes on). Dear god! Did we really do all that with a basic F body?

One thing I have seen a few times the last two years is the use of film (120 format) as a way to do a "special" portrait session package or two but it needs location set up, you won't just haul out a film camera and blast away 300 frames in 5 minutes with a Hassy! The photogs all tell me (they would, wouldn't they?) that the film portraits sell too.

Thank god I don't do weddings as a photog anymore. :-)

Posted 10 months ago #
SquamishPhoto

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sevencrossing said:
* beware, taking better shots than the number one, is really way to to piss him off

Thats only true if he's an ego driven prick. If he's a mature adult he'll pat you on the back and probably be willing to pay you more to continue being his second if you mention the idea of moving off into your own business one day.

Posted 10 months ago #
SkintBrit

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As someone who shoots weddings reasonably frequently, and is currently editting his last, may I be so bold as to give you my opinion? Lots of very good suggestions already, but I wouldn't think about turning up without:

AT LEAST two bodies (I prefer FF as I love to use shallow DOF creatively). As sevencrossing suggested, if they are identical all the better, as I sometimes find switching between 700 & 3s problematic. I'm looking forward (my bank manager isn't) to the day when I go out and buy three D4s's!

1 fast (2.8 or quicker) wide, and one fast Tele. I have 1.4s but if I am working alone and under pressure, I'll 'run home to mama' with the 24-70 & 70-200.

A good flash unit (preferably with an external battery pack).

Some spare batteries and memory card (on you at all times). I've never run out of juice yet, but often need/choose to change card through the day.

Other items like reflectors are nice, but not essential if you have a flash. I also have a very nice tripod, but have yet to EVER use it at a wedding, just too cumbersome.

Posted 10 months ago #
R8R

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bjrichus said:
Now *THAT'S* a photog with the kind of attitude that will either give you a reputation that will need a lot of work to overcome, or blast the competition to kingdom come.

What I meant is that my default attitude is one of humility. If I gain enough skills to shoot on par with a main shooter, all the better. If they get pissed about it, then that is their deal. It would not be from me rubbing it in their face - not my style.

A little background -
I'm in my early 40's.
I am already (fairly) successful with a long term musical career. For years it was done for the love, (and it was EXPENSIVE) but I am finally at a place where I can make a living at it. Not getting rich mind you, but it pays the bills.
However it's often feast or famine so I am looking to hopefully supplement my income with photography, not replace it. I've done countless "day jobs" over the years (a necessary evil of musician's life) but I will never go back to a desk job. I did run my own screen printing shop for several years but the overhead and inflexibility of a fixed location did not play well with having to travel for the band(s) I'm in. It was too stop/start to keep it going.

I do understand nothing comes instantly or without investment (anyone ever see the cost of screenprinting equipment? Cameras are CHEAP) So... I am in it for the long haul, hence the desire to ease into it instead rush in headlong and be discouraged when it doesn't work out.

Tons of good info here, I appreciate it greatly.

Random thoughts from reading the recent posts:

Perhaps 2x D700's, (I can maybe afford 2 of these used/refurb, not 2 D800's yet) with the D7000 as video and third backup.

Someone suggested a SB-910. I used one on the last rental and I did not notice much advantage over my SB-800 or even the SB-700 in close quarters.

Forgot about the new 28mm f/1.8, good option.

Could use some opinions on:
Tokina 28-70mm f/2.8 AT-X Pro (the I or II versions)
Nikon 28-70mm f/2.8 AF-S (note: I don't mind heavy)

Posted 10 months ago #
bjrichus

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R8R said:
What I meant is that my default attitude is one of humility. If I gain enough skills to shoot on par with a main shooter, all the better. If they get pissed about it, then that is their deal. It would not be from me rubbing it in their face - not my style.

From reading your post, I actually meant that remark as a bit of a compliment :-)

As you will have gathered, working in any self-employed capacity, you *have* to know how to handle people. Assume all people you come in contact with when working are potential customers and at least *YOU* won't have that monkey on *YOUR* back.

When I was shooting weddings as a second shooter (many years ago), I always made sure I smiled at all the venue staff and spoke to them on their own terms and was happy and friendly. When I went back to somewhere I had worked several times before, I was usually greeted on personal terms and when #1 shooter asked me about how they knew me better than him, I was honest about it.

Most of the lead shooters were/are also self employed either as company owners or freelancers and knew how to schmooze too and if I can be honest about it, you don't last long self-employed if you can't.

R8R said:
Nikon 28-70mm f/2.8 AF-S (note: I don't mind heavy)

HAHAHAHAHA.... There are some weighty bits of glass out there! I used to haul music gear round from a music gear rental company as a part time job when I was at college and finally got the message that I was NOT going to make a career out of carrying a dozen 4x12 cabs about the place. It DID however put few muscles on me - all gone to fat now! As my ex-wife used to say, "Getting old stinks"!!!

Posted 10 months ago #
SkintBrit

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R&R said : Perhaps 2x D700's, (I can maybe afford 2 of these used/refurb, not 2 D800's yet) with the D7000 as video and third backup.

Sounds like a good plan. Try and equip these with battery grips, as the extra power and (I find) shutter rate, will be useful.

Posted 10 months ago #
TaoTeJared

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What little I shoot weddings they are really bare bone (the couple) and are either friends that have me shoot the reception only or basically for free. I'm just not a wedding photog type of shooter. Most of the major formal stuff is done by someone else either days before or at the wedding and then I pick up the ambient and reception. I'll get some group shots when the primary photog leaves.

With that said a few things I have learn is that you need (FX equiv) 24-200 range, something that can do decent Macro (rings and stuff), and a 50mm (FX equiv.) I would say for me 75% is shot between 35mm-70mm and at f/8. DOF is really important for groups as you need to have 4-6feet in focus across the frame. When I switch to a photo-journalistic approach for receptions I am at F4 most of the time as people are moving and that usually gets them in the focus zone. For that time I use a 35mm (FX equiv/Fuji X100) and a 50mm. I have used ultra wide lenses but rarely are they the shots people choose. It's the people not the venue that everyone wants to see.

If you are rebuilding a FX kit, I would suggest the 24-120 f4 (maybe even the new 24-85 VR lens as most of the time you will be at f8), the 70-200mm (ver 1), 50 1.8. That would set you up for almost anything. Once thing I noticed moving to FX was I forgot how wide 24mm really is and I didn't find a need for an ultra wide at all. If you wanted to add a macro either a 60mm or 105mm fits the bill. Both are pronominal portrait lenses as well.

The last wedding I shot (not the primary) I used a 105vr, 50mm 1.4 and 70-200 for 99% of it. If I was doing the formals I would have used my ole 28-70 2.8 then. I have rented the 24-120VR and will get one, as that lens alone would have covered me for 75% of any event I have shot. That range is just perfect, and the DOF you need for a groups is usually at 5.6-8 anyway.

One last thing, VR to me is essential especially with the 70-200/80-200 and I wouldn't bother getting that size of a lens without it. The older ver.1 can be found for fairly reasonable and wasn't upgraded all that much. Carrying that beast around for 4-7 hours, VR is needed throughout. I would say it is close to par on a 85mm as well for portraits. If you want shallower DOF, Rack it out more and a bonus is it compress and narrows features of the face. If $ were a concern, I would go with the 24-85 VR & a used 70-200VR ver1 with a 50 1.8.

Gary Fong collapsible modifier is very useful as well. Not perfect, but better than most and it lives on my flash. I would prefer a large box, but those get knocked off too easily.

Posted 10 months ago #
Godless

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R8R said:
So - if anyone has a second, please post your thoughts about what a bare-bones wedding kit should be

A decent body and a decent 85mm f/1.x lens. Add a second body with a 20/24mm lens (or just the lens if you know when to swap) for versatility and you´re done. No flashes and no extra crap needed. Just enough memory cards.

Posted 10 months ago #
SkintBrit

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Godless said:
A decent body and a decent 85mm f/1.x lens. Add a second body with a 20/24mm lens (or just the lens if you know when to swap) for versatility and you´re done. No flashes and no extra crap needed. Just enough memory cards.

I take my hat off to you Godless, you're braver than me if you'd consider shooting a wedding with only (owning) one camera. I think I could use that choice of lenses though ;-)

Posted 10 months ago #
TaoTeJared

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SkintBrit said:
I take my hat off to you Godless, you're braver than me if you'd consider shooting a wedding with only (owning) one camera. I think I could use that choice of lenses though ;-)

I mostly only ever use one body. Now with the D800 and D300 & Fuji X100 I have two at some point but usually I just swap lenses. I have two belt pouches and have become really fast at switching lenses or just "make do" with what I have on. I actually come up with many really unique and chosen shots from that laziness. Stuck with a 105vr and 2ft away - dress detail time. ;)

Last reception I shot I had either a 85mm or 50mm on the D800 and the Fuji (35mm equiv) the whole time. I could easily get away with those 3 lenses most of the time and often have thought about dumping everything and doing that. ;)

Posted 10 months ago #

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