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KR Finally Appreciates RAW!

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alphanikonrex

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Quoted from his what's new page:

You gotta love DNG: Playing with the LEICA M9 and its native DNG raw format, it's the only raw format I could come to appreciate.

Why? Because it's as close to a standard raw format as we are going to get.

Because DNG is a standard, I can open the files from my very, very new LEICA M9 on anything that reads raw.

The M9 files open great in Lightroom 2.5, Photoshop CS4, and yes, especially well in Photoshop CS2 from three years ago.

With DNG, you don't have to buy new software to open files from new cameras, and more importantly, I don't have to spend all day looking for software updates to be able to read files.

When you review new cameras all day as I do, I often get cameras in my hands before the software is final, so with other cameras, I often can't open raw files because the cameras are newer than the software updates! Even if an update comes out tomorrow, that doesn't help open a raw file today.

With DNG, I'm good.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Oh god not another one of these threads. NO COMMENT!

Posted 3 years ago #
alphanikonrex

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But isn't this good news?

Posted 3 years ago #
Gentoo

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It can be if Nikon (and other makers) follow but I doubt that will happen.

Posted 3 years ago #
alphanikonrex

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I don't think that anybody will follow with this DNG thing.

After all, .NEF has gotten people to go out and buy NX2, right?

But it makes me wonder what if DNG finds itself into all cameras. Then what is KR going to recommend on the RAW vs. JPEG issue?

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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DNG was first introduced 5 years ago! It hasn't made any kind of headway at all. I don't see it ever becoming anything more than an adobe product.

Posted 3 years ago #
heartyfisher

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Actually.. I really cant see how DNG can posibly be real and future proof. How can there posibly be a real Standard raw format?
Let me just consider the 3 sensor formats that I know of. ie
1) Nikon/sony sensor . these are made 4 different coloured pixels in a horizontal grid.
2) The S5pro Fujifilm sensor . these are made from a diagonally arranged grid of pairs(R and S) of 4 coloured sensors.
3) The Faveon sensor. These are made from a horizontal grid of sensors that can read 3 different colours.
Who kows what kind of sensor array and configuration will be created in the future . eg the FUJI EXR sensor?
I will repeat my question. How can there posibly be a Standard RAW format?
I bet the leica one is just the sony raw format converted to "DNG"? Oo

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Leica M9 uses a Kodak sensor so it probably uses a Kodak DCR file or something which then becomes a DNG file. Most RAW formats are based on TIFF. What makes them all different are the "tweaks" each manufacturer does to make it their own. DNG is pretty much a TIFF file so that's why it's universally compatible.

Posted 3 years ago #
QuadraPixel

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I convert all my raw images to DNG to easy editing in photoshop.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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I guess you don't have CS4? For me that's way too much converting of files back and forth.

Posted 3 years ago #
QuadraPixel

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Nah, it's not a problem at all. You can batch convert your NEF's to DNG easily using the Adobe DNG Converter, then delete the NEF's. You then use adobe bridge to browse your files with large scalable thumbnails. You can then load large batches of the files to photoshop and easily adjust them one at a time and select multiple files to have the same adjustments.

One nice thing about RAW and DNG files is that you always have a back up becasue, you can't save pixel edits to your raw file. If you crop your JPG file so you have a small version to email and you close the file, if you accidentally click yes to "save changes" your high rez original file is toast. (which i accidentally did to a hilarious full rez image of Prez. Obama holding a toy light-sabre.)

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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I much prefer to just open up NEF files straight into photoshop with Camera RAW when I need to. I don't like going from NEF to DNG to PSD to TIFF or JPEG etc. Easier to just go from NEF straight to PSD.

Posted 3 years ago #
adamz

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For me also the conversion doesn't make too much sense. Till the time I'm able to open NEF files I don't care about any other format. As for DNG - I don't need it at all.

Posted 3 years ago #
soap

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heartyfisher - the physical layout of the sensor is replicated in the .tiff style raw format and thus the .dng.
All we're talking is a few bytes at the beginning of a file saying "this is the layout pattern".

DNG can be universal because there is a generic framework for storing mosaiced sensor raw data and a header for describing the layout. Any new sensor design will work (until we get to 3D sensors, and even then you can interlace the readings) as the format is expandible. DNG can be future-proof because it is documented and implementations can be written without beholding to anyone. While Adobe holds patents, they don't expect licensing fees or NDAs. Unlike current .nef files which (since the D2x) have had the white-balance information encrypted and all software which reads .nef files must use the Nikon SDK. The day Nikon decides not to release a SDK for your fancy new operating system is the day you can no longer open your old raws.

DNG, on the other hand, is a fully documented format which has been embraced (despite NikoDoby's comments) by most of the commercial software products and nearly all the OSS products. Because you are not relying on any companies good will and SDK to implement it there is no reason to fear its unavailability on your fancy new operating system.

DNG also allows you to get around the one (IMHO) great weakness of Lightroom - and that is managing multiple libraries on multiple computers and maintaining sync. Sure you could use NEF plus the XML sidecar file and move those around - or you could just sync all changes made in Lightroom to the DNG metadata and have a single file which is both your untouched negative and your corrected and adjusted file.

As for the idea DNG makes one more step in the file-type chain - my NEF files get converted to DNG while being copied off my CF cards. No extra step.

Posted 3 years ago #
heartyfisher

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I still dont really get it... My S5pro has the S and R sensors .. I can convert that RAF format to DNG. Ok I can do that. But there is no way good old CS2 (or some other old software)is going to open the new DNG and be able to understand that S and R format. So yes I can convert to DNG but the old software that can read DNG will not be able to understand it even if it is a "standard" format. So that logic is false. Just because the new sensors may save in DNG. Its does not mean that old software can understand it.

Posted 3 years ago #
soap

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?
It is mosaiced sensor data and a description of how to demosaic it. It DOES mean that old software can understand it. That's the whole point. A simple framework which allows a variety of datatypes organized in a structured way, and "instructions" for how to interpret it. This sort of abstraction layer is common.

Posted 3 years ago #
heartyfisher

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I have tried that and it does not work :-) Thats one of the problems with the S5pro. The software need to understand the S and the R sensors. And the old software does/did not. only recently have they had support for the S and the R sensors.

Posted 3 years ago #
soap

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Old software doesn't support new features? More at 11. ;)
But in all seriousness - you were using this as an argument against DNG's designed future-proofness (is that even a word, or did I make it up?), which is different than the backwards compatibility issues you appear to be describing.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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"Embraced"? soap, DNG has been out for 5 years and it has not still to become the Jpeg of RAW files. It's just a TIFF based file format. If your software understands TIFF then yeah it'll read DNG. The problem is that DNG is still NOT a standard format! Yes you can auto batch convert but again that's an extra step and for someone like me who deals with massive amounts of files that's not a good thing. Why should I add yet another format to my work flow?

I wouldn't call a few cameras (not even all their cameras) from Casio, Sinar, Ricoh, and Samsung as a major embrace. The only success DNG has made is with Leica and Pentax who are just barely "coming around" to the idea, but that has more to do with the fact that they are trying to survive as a manufacturers. When Nikon, Sony, canon, Olympus, and Fuji cameras shoot straight to DNG then you can start tooting the horn. Hell when just one of those big guys starts "supporting" DNG I'll start dancing with you.

Posted 3 years ago #
soap

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How is auto batch convert upon transfer an extra step? It is a seamless part of my transfer routine, not "another format" as my PC-side storage system never sees .nef files.

I don't care what camera manufactures support it out of the box. I never mentioned it being standard amongst cameras, only software. They all (camera makers) like their proprietary lock-in raw formats - doesn't mean I have to bend over and take it. It (DNG) has been widely embraced by all segments of the software industry, and that is all I care about.

Posted 3 years ago #
Willis

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What's so dumb about the proprietary software approach is that the first thing any photographer does is convert it to something usable. I have never, ever, once installed the software that comes with my camera on my computer, and I'm certainly not going to pay for it.

Nikon stands alone as the only company to get the software side right with Capture NX 2, which they had to get NIK to design for them. Even it can be pretty buggy (or so I'm told). I actually had some software from Kodak bring down one of my PC's (it was running windows 98, so its probably only half Kodak's fault) a few years back.

I just don't understand why camera manufacturers think they want to be in the software business. I'll wager that Nikon doesn't make very much off their agreement with NIK.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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soap,how is going from NEF to DNG to PSD versus NEF to PSD "not another format"?! Why shoot NEF if you don't even use it? Just get a camera that shoots DNG like the Pentax K-7. I work with various file formats all day (yes I actually do work and don't just sit on this forum all day) so I'm VERY hesitant to waste time and disk space converting files back and forth.

If I shot with a K-7 why would I want to auto batch convert to NEF in order to use Capture NX, even if the process was seamless? Not sure what software your using that requires you to use DNG, but I have yet to come across an assignment where I'm asked, "Niko can you make sure all the files you give us are in DNG?"

Posted 3 years ago #
soap

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double-post, delete.

Posted 3 years ago #
soap

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It is another format - but a seamless one - thus the arguments brought up so far against are moot. Seamless in that conversion happens on transfer w/o effort or disk space consumed.
I have too much invested in my photos to leave them in a format which is at the whim of Nikon. If Nikon decides not to support .nef on Windows 10, for example, you're SoL.

And beyond the issue of being at the mercy of Nikon for the viability of my archive, DNG does everything NEF does and more. It is a superset of the NEF format with work flow advantages which I am far from alone in recognizing. I shoot NEF because Nikon forces me to and Nikon makes the bodies I want to use. I convert to DNG because DNG gives me the work flow I need and the insurance I want. No software I use requires me to use DNG, but many benefit from it.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Which software benefits from DNG and what advantage does DNG give over NEF aside from future use?

Posted 3 years ago #

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KR Finally Appreciates RAW!

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