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Focus Questions - Frustrations

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ptiller

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When shooting indoor volley ball (no flash, high ISO 1600-3200 ), I seem to get many pictures out of focus even with single point focus (continous focus), shutter release on focus lock, and the focus point confirmed on the target of interest. Due to avaiable light and budget, I shoot with a Nikon 50mm 1.4G lens. Most shots are with the aperature at 1.4, trying to achieve best shutter speed to stop action.

I generally shoot in manual mode. Initially, I would leave the lens at 1.4 and use 1/400 or so shutter speed & 1600 ISO. I have also tried shoot with differnt combinations of a) aperture more closed, 2.8 or so, for better depth of feild, b) higher shutter speed, upto 1/1000th, and c) higher ISO upto 6400. None of the combinations seems to really deliver the level of focus I expected.

Am I being unreasonable in my expectation?

Could the body, lens, or both not focus fast enough for action sports? Volleyball is fast action with players moving at the same time a) away and toward the camera ,and b) moving across the camera. I have many pictures where focus point is on target, but pic not in focus.

In many cases, the item I focus on makes up only 5-20% of the to view finder, due to the 50mm lens. Could this have an impact?

I have tried 3D continous focus at basketball game ( indoors / in stands ). Pitures looked OK on the camera LCD but were really not in focus when reviewed on my PC monitor (27"). It seems like a wall or other items where in sharp focus. The 3D tracking looked like it was operating correctly and following the moving subject while taking the pictures.
I have also tried multipoint focus too, but it seems the camera always picks the wrong point to focus on ( I generally expect the item in the center of the lens should take priority ).

Thanks for any advice.

Posted 1 year ago #
ptiller

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After more research, I think some of my problems are related to the 50mm 1.4G lens. Using the lens below F4, shows a lot of softness, especially at 1.4. So those shots that are correctly focused by the camera are just soft due to lens being fully open. I will need to test this out.

Posted 1 year ago #
Bland

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Sounds like the same issues I have with my D7000. What I have found is it takes longer to focus then my D90 but once it does focus on the subject it really stays glued to it in AF-C.

Also, when shooting sports I have to let the subject come into my shot. Meaning, the D7000 won't reach out into the depth of the shot to focus. I'm not complaining, it just took some getting use to.

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

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Welcome to NRF. I think most have had these issues. The first question is what body are you using? Their are so many menu settings on these things, I cannot get it all straight myself. The idea of the camera shooting only when the subject is in focus is fine, but the time from button pushing to actual image recording may be up to 0.07 sec. I think this is the time on the D90. At 15 mph, a runner moving toward you, or jumping, etc. the distance is about 1.5 feet.....so, out of focus. When tracking, and the lens/camera is actually able to determine the speed with which the object is moving toward you, the lens will anticipate this somewhat and the result is correct focus. More expensive lens/body probably does this better.

This is a possible explanation assuming all is working on the body/lens combo. Also, if one simply punches the release button and instantly takes the exposure, the autofocus simply has no time to find the subject. Again, more $$$ more performance.

What you are doing is good. Trying different techniques, experimenting, all are the way almost everyone has learned. And, some of us are forgetting faster than learning, now, ha, ha, ha... Check your technique, try to get the subject caught with the focus mechanism working...button half pressed, then squeeze the exposures when the action is about to start. If you can shoot at high frames per second (FPS) your chances are much better to get what you want and get it in focus. the camera will have a chance to find itself.
.
And now, you will have a bunch of other excellent opinions, all quite valid. I am only offering some thoughts

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

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ptiller: I don't think it is the lens or the camera. It is you. You just don't know how to set up the camera yet. For example, on multi-point focus the camera defaults to focus on a near object not to focus in the center as you wrongly assumed. But you can force the camera to focus in the center if that is what you want by using only 9 or 21 of the focus sensors in the center of the viewfinder. We will all help you. None of us here know everything either but we help each other.

And don't shoot in manual mode. Let the camera use its "brains" to work for you. Shoot in A mode so you have control over the aperture. Set it to f2.8 or try f1.8. Some of apparent lack of focus is actually a very shallow depth of field so you want as high an F stop as you can get to achieve DOF but because of low light and moving subjects you will not be able to go higher than f2.8. You also want as high a shutter speed and as low an ISO as you can get. You probably cannot go higher than 3200 or 6400 ISO and cannot go lower than 1/250th of a second to freeze action. On A the Camera will select shutter speed. Use your Auto ISO setting to control the minimum shutter speed and the maximum ISO your camera is allowed to use. Then let the camera work for you. Watch the shutter speeds it is selecting and move your front wheel to adjust f stops as the lighting conditions change, often they can vary one stop as the subject moves around the court.

See what I wrote in this thread about how to set up your camera and especially your auto focus settings.

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=5783

Try my suggestions and see if your focus issues don't significantly improve.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rx4Photo

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Ptiller,

I think your follow up comment included much of the answer. The depth of field is so shallow at f/1.4 that it is often a challenge to take even a portrait of an individual at f/1.4 and nailing focus on exatly what you want in focus (i.e. eyes, eyelashes, lips). So trying to capture moving vollyball players would likly yield the results you're getting.

I was recently in a camera shop and this guy brought his camera in and complained to the owner that all of his photos at a swim meet were out of focus (he thought the camera needed to be adjusted). I stayed in earshot and heard the owner explain things similar to all the above comments.

I must admit, I've been under impressed while trying 3D focus tracking on my D7000 as well. So much so that I've resorted to keeping it in A mode and trying to spot focus and hope to get a focused picture. Works sometimes, fails sometimes. I consider it an ongoing experiment, though. Always trying to learn.

Posted 1 year ago #
Bland

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Rx4Photo said:
Ptiller,

I must admit, I've been under impressed while trying 3D focus tracking on my D7000 as well. So much so that I've resorted to keeping it in A mode and trying to spot focus and hope to get a focused picture. Works sometimes, fails sometimes. I consider it an ongoing experiment, though. Always trying to learn.

I agree completely! I've found that the full auto focus mode performs better then the 3D tracking shooting sports, but both are weak in function. The only thing I have found that works (for me) is the method you stated, A mode and spot focus.

Posted 1 year ago #
elvishefer

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At f/1.4 one of the problems I have is that I tend to not think about how I'm pressing the shutter button. I have a tendency to press harder over time, as my attention wains. At f/1.4, a heavy press is enough to throw the focal plane out of alignment and create a blurry photo. F/1.4 is tough to pull off.

If the 50 1.4 is 'soft' at 1.4, it's probably determined to be so after testing, and saying something is soft in a test environment is not the same as getting blurry photos, if that makes sense. There are so many more variables in real world environments that, in this day and age, the actual lens quality at a given aperture should be the last bullet point on a list of possible causes of a blurry photo (imHo).

Posted 1 year ago #
TaoTeJared

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I'm with most above.
What body are you using? That makes a difference in the AF performance.

No matter what body, I have found Single point will work the best. For sports, add Continuous focusing as well.

Set the body to Shutter priority and auto ISO. Shutter speed around 1/250th should stop most action. Let the camera choose the ISO to match exposure.

Other things to note:

Manual mode is not good to use unless you fully understand why you are using it, and know what the outcome will be. That just comes from practice and experience.

The complaints 50mm 1.4g came from the first couple of batches (3 yrs ago), and when people say soft, they mean it is not tack sharp compared to 24-70mm lens or a 85mm 1.4. It is more than sharp enough for 99% of real world shooting.

High ISOs will not be sharp. You loose sharpness when you push the ISO higher. Anything above 400 and the sharpness drops. If you are only printing a 4x6 or sharing it on FB you probably won't notice. Pixel peeping you will.

To freeze action you need to keep your shutter high. For most foot sports (people playing on foot, not on cars, bikes, boats) 1/250th is usually fast enough. Anything below 1/60th can be too slow unless you have your timing spot on.

At F/1.4, your focus area for 15ft is only 1.5 feet or just the shoulder to the elbow/forearm of a person. At f/2.8, and at 15ft you get 3 feet which should be the whole person. http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Anticipate shots by pre-focusing on a point close to the area where you want to shoot. This will speed up the AF to get the shot. Watch out for anything between you and the subject - the camera doesn't know what you want and will usually go for the nearest subject - which could be the net.

Don't expect more than 1 in 10 shots to be good and maybe 1 in 100 to be great. I was shooting Sandhill cranes (moves fast, not ideal lighting, pushing ISOs and need to keep shutter high) and out of 500 shots I only found 10 to share and maybe 2 that I thought were good and none were great. Waking up at 2am, 8hrs on the road, wet, sloppy, cold, $50 for a guide, and blah! That's the name of the game that we have to deal with when you can't control all the variables.

Posted 1 year ago #
TaoTeJared

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http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=5783

Similar question here as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
ptiller

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Joined: Apr '12
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Thanks for the great comments. My body is a D7000.
I need to take this all in and compare it to what I have tried. A few follow up questions may be in the works.

Posted 1 year ago #
ptiller

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In reviewing pics on my PC with Nikon View, I have several shots that show the focus point to be on the desired target (moving target, not stationary), but clearly the camera is focusing somewhere else ( usually some more distant object or wall).
Focus is set to 1-point spot, AF-C. Shutter release prioirty is set to release on focus lock in menus.
Aperature was 1.4 and shutter speed 1/400th. ISO was 3200.

In this set up, I assume that if the focus point is on the intended subject and the camera releases the shutter, I should be "more or less" in focus on the intended subject ( barring any softness due to high ISO or issues related to using the 50mm lens at F1.4).

Am I misunderstanding this?

Any idea why the subject is not in focus?

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

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Joined: Mar '10
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When using continuos servo mode, the camera must be set so the auto focus begins when the button is pushed half way down. Then as you follow the action, button half way down, squeeze the button to begin your 4-6 FPS sequence. You should get at least a couple good focus images. In moving subjects the camera tries to anticipate where the subject is going. So, it must have autofocus activated briefly before the shutter is released. And the rapid frame rate will tend to catch the subject in focus when irregular movement is occurring. Try this technique and see if it helps. Of course, make certain the contacts of the lens are clean and the lens is in the camera body well seated.

Also, setting the f/stop where you want it, the shutter speed where you want it, and the ISO on auto is helpful...manual mode

Good luck

Posted 1 year ago #
tcole1983

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Pretty good advice msmoto. Moving shots can be hard and lots of times I only get a single picture out of a burst that is actually in focus or froze the action where I wanted it. As stated if the focus is locked and things are moving then it doesn't matter if it was in focus or the focus point is shown in the right spot, but it could still be out of focus. It is difficult and so it should be a little frustrating. I tried to take pictures when my wife got her masters degree and I was super frustrated and none of them turned out. Keep trying as practice makes perfect and good luck.

Posted 1 year ago #
SquamishPhoto

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These types of shots are rendered much easier with either a body or lens with an AF-ON button(s) and setting the cameras AF activation to "off" and then only be firing the shutter with your main trigger button. You can tweak it even further depending on whether the action is moving laterally in front of you or moving towards or aways from your shooting position. But this is all moot considering the body and lens choice available to you, so ill make a recommendation. For almost every reason imaginable the 70-200 is going to be the real game changer for you if indoor volleyball is something your going to be shooting with any regularity. Maybe rent one for a game and then see if you like it enough to start saving your pennies up to maybe pick up a great used copy of the VR1 version some day.

Posted 1 year ago #
ericbowles

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Just a few thoughts to add.

The 50 f/1.4 lens is not as sharp at f/1.4 as it is at f/2.8. Most lenses are better stopped down slightly and with the 50 f/1.4 that is certainly the case.

The focus point in Nikon View is an indicator of the focus point that was used at the time of the shutter release. If you use a focus and recompose method, or if there is hunting, focus could be missed.

I like using AF-C with Release Priority for sports or wildlife. AF-S and Focus priority are for stationary subjects. I'm willing to trade off some out of focus images to keep the camera from refusing to fire at critical action. I always avoid AF-A (Auto) as while it sounds good, there is a brief delay with focus when a stationary subject starts to move. I have missed a number of images with AF-A even when both AF-S and AF-C were set for Release priority.

Shutter speeds of 1/400 to 1/500 sec should be fast enough for people playing indoor sports. Slowing to 1/250 is possible, but will start to show subject motion.

I almost always use automated exposure modes. Aperture priority would be selected if you want the fastest shutter speed and want to maintain f/2.8 aperture. I think that works fine since you know you need to shoot at near wide open apertures. Shutter priority would be your choice if you are looking to freeze a specific motion or activity. It works here and would be set at a level that keeps your aperture around f/2.8. I would use Manual Mode in two situations - one is a known light level with changing backgrounds or uniform color that impacts exposure. The other is changing light levels on the subject where I use Auto ISO for exposure and want specific settings for aperture and shutter.

Avoid 3D AF for most situations. It is best when the subject is moving directly toward you or away from you.

Use AF Tracking set on normal or low. Tracking will maintain focus on your subject if a ball, arm, or player briefly gets between the subject and the camera.

Posted 1 year ago #
NSXType-R

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Not really a question based on the original point, but a new question on focusing.

I'm just curious about focusing speeds- is it based more on the lens or the focusing system of the body?

I own a 105mm macro Nikkor, and it's pretty quick for non-macro applications, but how much of a difference in focusing speed might I see if I were to upgrade to a D7000 from a D40? That's obviously a very big upgrade, but I'm just curious how big a difference it makes.

Would I see a difference in the speed a kit zoom or the 35mm 1.8 acquires focus too?

Posted 8 months ago #

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