where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
I am interested in seeing what others want, leaving price out, to buy the D400 over the D800. For me the essentials are:
1. The ability to change quickly from 16MP DX to a 5MP CX format.
2. D4 tracking and auto-focus.
3. Minimum 7fps
4. Improved Flash System like D800
5. Live View auto-focus like D800 for computer control.
5. D800 or better High ISO performance
Well I might have missed it but until they release offical specs for it, I don't have a clue. For the question in your topic, for me it won't be to purchase instead of a D800 but to purchase along with a D800. I just have not made up my mind if I want the 800 or 800e so until then I am a fence guy.
I have a D7000, it works fine. I prefer the D200/D700 controls like my other cameras but slowly I am getting used to it. I only use the D7000 for the DX crop in long shots otherwise my D700 is in my hand. For me to upgrade my D7000 is the following:
1. D4 tracking and auto-focus
2. I would like 7 fps but 6 will do, if it dropped to 5 fps the rest of the camera better make coffee
3. At least 16MP (with better ISO), but I would say 18-22MP prefferd (with at least the same ISO ability)
4. Same size/controls as my D200/D700 which I think the D800 did as well
Things that would be nice is the flash system and live view, but since this would be primarily used for telephoto shots in my case, I don't see the flash upgrades helping me that much.
Sorry TriShooter but this is wayyyy to early for remotely discussing this - there are not even any creditable rumors out there that are less than a year old. Hell, the D800 isn't even delivered to the masses yet!
The Dx00 series has always had the AF, Metering, Flash, and almost all other controls of the Dx (D2,D3) and the same controls of the D700 (actually the D700 had the same controls of the D300) - there is no reason to believe this will change.
The only real decision between the two will probably be the choice of DX and FX and $1000.
TaoTeJared said:
Sorry TriShooter but this is wayyyy to early for remotely discussing this - there are not even any creditable rumors out there that are less than a year old. Hell, the D800 isn't even delivered to the masses yet!The Dx00 series has always had the AF, Metering, Flash, and almost all other controls of the Dx (D2,D3) and the same controls of the D700 (actually the D700 had the same controls of the D300) - there is no reason to believe this will change.
The only real decision between the two will probably be the choice of DX and FX and $1000.
I wonder why I seem to agree with you so often, TaoTeJared. I really think the D400(?) will be the ultimate DX camera. And it should be similar "in hand" to my D200, which is so much easier for me to use than the D90. It baffles me why they make the controls so different, unless it is cost or just to distinguish the "pro" bodies from the others.
scoobysmak, thank you for your excellent comments, and sense of humor.
The D7000 takes very good pictures, but I also have the same problem with the controls being less comfortable to use than, in my case, the D200/D300. The D7000 viewfinder makes me feel claustrophobic. I keep the 300mm with the 1.7 converter on it and the which makes a super combination for macro, and small
On the D800 / D800E. I have wanted a Nikon camera without anti-alias filters since the Kodak 14n which I thought was an amazing body for landscapes; the detail the 14n produces has always been breathtaking to me. I think I am going to go with D800E if the difference is on a par with the 14n, and like yourself waiting for some raw files to look at it.
TaoTeJared, I agree, but my purpose is not to guess the actual features of the camera but see if there will be anything that a D400 could offer to me that the D800 does not already seem to offer for the type of shooting I enjoy. ON actual features I would guess the D400 will be a 24MP camera, that may be FX and DX both to help Nikon promote their more expensive lenses.
I am fast coming to t conclusion that there is not much that the D400 is going to offer me beyond other being a thousand dollars less and a having a much higher fps which will probably be in 8fps or higher in DX.
I am not an event photographer, but will do it under duress. Nevertheless, I admit liking the ability to put the hammer down when I see a good action, but think lag is as, or even more important to me than fps. Also seeing more in the frame makes can make just okay shots potentially into gems. It is hard for me to predict what I cannot see coming when the action is really fast. Two examples of this before sharpening with the D300 and a 300mm lens:
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showphoto.php/photo/328498/size/big/cat/19625
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showphoto.php/photo/328492/size/big/cat/19625
I think the D800E, with its reduced lag, at 5fps or 6fps with the grip would probably have given me an even better shot because of seeing the action better, especially in the first shot above.
Putting the extra thousand dollars aside, I think the D800 because of its superb dynamic range, which seems to me to be as good as the D4, is going to be a very good wildlife camera for 90-95 percent of my shooting, and a spectacular camera for portraits and landscapes, so thinking that I will likely skip the D400 which is the primary reason I started this thread.
I think it is going to be just the D800E for me.
The D400 will be the best DX body Nikon makes. That alone, is enough reason to want it.
donaldejose, you have great confidence which is probably with cause. But other than more fps, and maybe 6mp more, where can it be better than the D800E? Look at the Dynamic range of the D800E compared to the D4:
http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm#D4,D4%28e%29,D800,D800%28e%29
They are essentially the same dynamic range with a very small edge to the D4.
I doubt the D400 is going to have a better noise level. However, I might break a leg hustling to the store to get me hands on a D400 if it might have a cx crop mode, with D400 or D800 noise levels because I am lens limited to 500mm which is sometimes a day late and a dollar short.
I am hopeful that you know, or are making an educated case about something I'm missing. I would appreciate a heads up here, or by PM, if you have time. I would prefer to buy one instead of two cameras this year. I started salivating on the D800E because of it dropping the anti-alias filter the 36mp with D4 dynamic range.
Thank you for making a comment.
Whoa, am I missing something here? Why are we comparing a D800 and a D400..... like comparing a 2 1/4 to 4x5???? Are not these two completely different format cameras? Comparing a F150 to a big diesel F350. Or Boxster to GT3 Porsche. I must be asleep but there is no indication the D400 is going to be an FX camera is there?
And if there is, ones for me definitely.
msmoto said:
Whoa, am I missing something here? Why are we comparing a D800 and a D400..... like comparing a 2 1/4 to 4x5???? Are not these two completely different format cameras? Comparing a F150 to a big diesel F350. Or Boxster to GT3 Porsche. I must be asleep but there is no indication the D400 is going to be an FX camera is there?
And if there is, ones for me definitely.
And that is why this thread needs to go away - people are getting delusional off of it!
I think what TriShooter was trying to get at is if FX or DX doesn't matter, if there will be a difference.
The D700 and D300 were identical except the sensors - my guess the D800/D400 will be also except maybe a bit faster on the FPS if the MP are less but probably only just 1-3 more.
TriShooter: I never said the D400 would be better than the D800e or than any FX sensor Nikon body. I said it would be the best DX Nikon body. Note I limited best to DX sensor bodies. It will be the top of the DX line. Perhaps all FX sensor bodies will be better. Perhaps even the old D700 FX body will be better. If FX is inherently superior to DX (among the same generation of cameras) than I would not expect the D400 (a DX sensor body) to be better than any FX sensor body. I think you simply missed my DX reference and limitation in the sentence saying the D400 would be the best.
I agree with Tao that it is most likely the D400 will use the D800 body and electronics and since it is pushing a throughput of fewer megapixels it should have faster FPS and a larger buffer. Actually, though I would like to see Nikon create a new body for the D400 which is smaller than the D800 body and has a built in battery pack with vertical shutter release controls like the D4. Sort of a DX sized D4. Hopefully, D400 news will soon surface and people can debate data rather than speculation.
donaldejose said:
Actually, though I would like to see Nikon create a new body for the D400 which is smaller than the D800 body and has a built in battery pack with vertical shutter release controls like the D4. Sort of a DX sized D4. Hopefully, D400 news will soon surface and people can debate data rather than speculation.
BINGO, you win!
Yes, I would love this.... my goodness, this would be so nice to have a DX format D4... maybe the same size, but with less internals a slightly lighter weight. My, my, my would not this be the perfect companion to the D4? And, say 24Mp? Thank you donaldejose!
donaldejose said:
Actually, though I would like to see Nikon create a new body for the D400 which is smaller than the D800 body and has a built in battery pack with vertical shutter release controls like the D4. Sort of a DX sized D4. Hopefully, D400 news will soon surface and people can debate data rather than speculation.
I would just scream if they did that. I love the current size as anything much smaller makes my hands cramp. I just couldn't stand the D7000 size when I used it.
Thank you gentleman for your comments.
TaoTeJared you put the hammer on the anvil when you said "I think what TriShooter was trying to get at is if FX or DX doesn't matter, if there will be a difference." I think the differences will probably be relatively small as well except for the fps which could potentially be a lot better.
I think Nikon could sell a tremendous number of D400s with a 24MP sensor that included a CX crop mode for reasons mentioned above. I agree with you guys on the camera size. Both the D5100 and D7000 are hand cramp machine for me too. Regardless, they both take very good pictures, but the ergonomics are not ideal for high volume shooters.
There actually is some speculation that Nikon might tweak the Sony 24mp sensor for the D400, which might be great, but could cause the D400 to be delayed until about February of next year because of their licensing agreement with each other.
There has been some speculation about FX but not with creditable logic to my knowledge, it seems to be just talk.
I am confident that I will like the D400 when it comes out, but frankly attempting to rationalize something the French say is not possible; eating my cake and having it too. LOL.
My thanks and appreciation to you gentleman for endeavoring to help me look at this before taking the plunge.
I have a D7000 with battery grip and it fits my hands just fine. Perhaps I have small hands. I am 5 feet 7 inches tall so I would expect a number of men and many women would have hands similar to mine and not find the D7000 size too small.
If the purpose of the D400 would be to serve as a D4 backup in DX format then it should be exactly the same size as the D4 for ease in switching between the two. It doesn't really make sense to me to put a DX sensor into the D4 body because that would make the D400 too costly for its niche. You would have to put the DX chip into the D800 body and take $1,000 off the D800 price because you are using DX instead of FX. That is what Nikon did with the D300s and D700, isn't it? Odds are we will see the same strategy and parts sharing again with a 24mp Sony DX chip (but Nikon tuned) in the D800 body as the D400.
SkintBrit said:
bonjour monsieur, je ne appareils photo plein cadre si ne serait pas intéressé par un D400 Nikon quelle que soit la spécification.
To me each of the formats, FF, DX, and CX have advantages and disadvantages. As donaldejose said the D400 will be the best ever DX camera from Nikon. I agree with him.
I am confident that your choice of FF only is the very best for what you enjoy shooting. For me my first choice is DX like Donald because of what I shoot, but also know that FF, and the larger format cameras like Phase One are the best of their category.
donaldejose you make a good point on hand size; I am just over 6 feet and my hands are too large to be comfortable working the tiny latches jewelers put on women's necklaces. Gloves come in different sizes for a for a reason.
I love my D300 but its sensor never was even close to the D3 series. But, it was huge jump over the D200. This said up to about 1250-1600 ISO, depending one the background, it is a very fine camera. I tend to use bounce flash or off camera flash for indoor shots so that never a problem, and in well lit house does not need flash. Shooting the D300 with a telephotos lenses in the early morning, and late evening can be done but it takes a lot of finesse.
Our D7000 are on a par with a D700 most of the ISO scale but better than the D700 at low ISOs. The D7000 is actually better than the D3S up to about 600 ISO where the D4 takes the lead and it keeps getting wider all the way up. The D7000 is a heck of camera.
The D800E is not the equal of the D4. It is actually superior at low ISOs and stays with the D4 until 12,800 ISO when it starts to fall. However, D800E looks better at 25,600 ISO than the D700 is now to the D3. This is why I am so tempted to buy one instead of waiting for the D400.
TriShooter said:
LOL. Please excuse my unintentional faux pas msmoto !!!/TriShooter bows respectfully
You are excused.... actually, on one of these threads someone asked if the viewfinder zoomed on the D800. I was trying to find this out, but I think I know the answer. NO. And I take this as correct because the D4 does not zoom the viewfinder.
And for those who want to know just about everything there is to know about the D4 or the D800, Nikon has superb, "Digitutors" for both. It literally walks you through all the controls of the cameras. And believe me, when yo get older, you really need this kind of hand holding.
So, instead of folks placing absolutely meaningless comments on threads, which I do a lot, we can all run to the digitutor and actually get our questions answered.
Have a great day everyone....
msmoto, thank you. I think you are correct on the D800 viewfinder not zooming; only in live view does it zoom. I have read the live view is easy to see in direct sunlight because the screen adjusts itself for brightness and contrast. The neat thing for macro is that you can zoom, out the focus where you want it and it stays there when you zoom out.
I have read in several places now that the D400 may use pixel binding which will make it a very high ISO offering; four pixels would become one which will give us a 6MP very high ISO camera for low light assuming a 24MP primary sensor. I am also hearing it will have much higher fps, all of which makes it sound very interesting.
msmoto said:
I wonder why I seem to agree with you so often, TaoTeJared.
It's easy to agree with people who are right. ;-)
TaoTeJared said:
I would just scream if they did that. I love the current size as anything much smaller makes my hands cramp. I just couldn't stand the D7000 size when I used it.
I think you misunderstood what donaldejose wrote, TTJ. He's saying D4-sized body with DX sensor. Like the successor to the D2x that has never been DX because the D3 was FX.
jonnyapple said:
It's easy to agree with people who are right. ;-)I think you misunderstood what donaldejose wrote, TTJ. He's saying D4-sized body with DX sensor. Like the successor to the D2x that has never been DX because the D3 was FX.
If the D400 has the top half of the D4,which is highly likely, then one can put the battery pack/grip on the bottom and have the feel of the D4 with the controls similar. I like to have the same controls on each camera I am using.
And, a comment on the D4 and D800 was made. One of the big differences in the D4 is the basic construction. The integrated grip and ability to change to vertical (with the focus point changing automatically if desired) suggests this is a more rugged design than a separate battery pack.
I must say that the Nikon battery grip for the D7000 is quite rugged. It's taken a few hard hits for my D7k and protected it. I only wish it were a little slimmer top to bottom therefore giving it more of that look of the D4. On the subject of this thread - for a while I had the thought of moving on to the D800 in a year or so for 2 reasons: a) better high ISO IQ, and b) slightly bigger body for which I probably would not buy the battery grip. The more I think of it I'm feeling that if the D300S replacement (D400 or whatever Nikon decides to call it) has improved the IQ of higher ISO images then I don't see the need to get the D800.
I realize that transferring images to internet websites for us to view can degrade the IQ a bit so we're not always seeing what the shooter saw. But I've seen pics from D3S's and D700's that weren't as sharp as I've expected - pics that I very well could have taken with my camera. I daresay that Joe McNally probably could have taken the same images in the Preservation Hall with a D7000 and made them look as good as with the D4 given similar lighting. I mean, look at Bland's recent shot on the PAD thread.
I don't want to break the bank (or P.O. my wife); I just want to take the best images possible for Me. So we'll have to wait to see what that sensor in the D400 can do.
Almost all the images we actually view on our computers or in prints from our inkjet printers are comprised of about 2 megapixels downsized from the original file. Thus, as to what "we see" the D400 should be more than enough if it has good clean high ISO and good IQ at low ISO. When you spend twice as much as a D7000 to get all those extra pixels, you just lose them in translation anyway. Most images in the PAD thread are probably displayed at 1 megapixel size. You won't see the difference in reasonable light.
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