where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
Hi all,
I've been taking a look at the Atomos Ninja, was wondering if people have seen similar products, built cheaper rigs themselves or have ideas on how to build a hard drive capture system. I guess I'm confused how you get HDMI out to write straight to a disk, am I missing something here?
Cheers
Ive posted about this but no one here cares about video. I finally decided to go with this for the D4.
*LINK REMOVED*
Its 350 + SSD drives which is pretty good. I find the ninja way over priced for what it does. If it had focus peaking then I would absolutely pay for it. This way you get your recorder and if you need off camera lcd just buy one that offers this feature.
This is a nice alternative, thanks aesnakes!
I wonder though, this must be easy to build yourself, these things don't have onboard processors themselves, they're just fancily built...hmmmmm
got to hash the direct link, but simply google for: hyperdeckshuttle - it looks really promising
@aesnakes - sorry You feel disappointed but most ppl over here are more photography concerned
Most broadcast productions using SSD recorders are currently using either nanoFlash or Aja recorders, but those are are hideously expensive. Both the Black Magic product (HyperDeck Shuttle 2), and the Atomos look really interesting. The cool thing about this new breed of recorders is that they're recording in ProRes (or other native NLE formats), so that there's no transcoding required when dropping the files into an FCP timeline.
That looks interesting.
I'd been looking at the Ninja, but thought it was too expensive.
I'm not sure yet if it has an HDMI output to drive a monitor while recording. If it does, I might get one.
BlackMagic also makes a line of reasonably priced devices called Intensity. There's a PCIe card as well as a couple of different USB 3.0/Thunderbolt tethered devices. Maybe not as portable as the others, but if you are shooting in the studio or in a controlled location, you can capture to a desktop or laptop.
Id like to find a good monitor out for the D800 / D4 with Peaking for focus....I dont know if you could use the shuttle 2 and output to another monitor for peaking or not? I wish Nikon would just add this feature in the camera.
Bumping this and adding a question.
I'm tracing the path between the D800 HDMI Output and my iMac 24" (Firewire 800, no USB 3.0 or HDMI), per this topic.
I am thinking:
1. D800 to Hyperdeck Shuttle via HDMI (mini to regular)
2. Shuttle records to an inserted, portable 2.5" SSD like a Kingston or Crucial
3. Pop out the SSD and then... need a docking station of some sort? Docking station is connected to the 24" iMac via Firewire 800.
4. iMac and Final cut Pro reads the video file on the docked SSD and voila... direct editing into Timeline.
5. The D800 Video file on SSD is also backed up to a Terabyte HDD, stored offline, etc.
So.... a couple questions.
A. Does this seem like a logical path given the involved hardware? Is there a step missing or extra taken?
B. Is there a Docking Station for #3 that has this capability?
C. A Mac Mini Server has an HDMI connection. Does this present an alternative scenario, or is that Mac Mini HDMI only suitable to drive video display out?
@aesnakes & @redirector:
Here are the major issues I see with the HyperDeck Shuttle (HDS):
"HyperDeck Shuttle: 15 minutes uncompressed (1.6 GB/s) = 180GB = 180GB ssd drive = $480
Ninja: 6 hours ProRes 422 (HQ) (220 MB/s) = 2.5″ 640GB drive = $50"
Those prices have changed a bit, but you get the idea.
Compare that to the Ninja:
All of the sudden, $995 sounds like a bargain considering you'll probably be spending an extra $300-$900 minimum (ssd drive, docking station, field monitor) in order to make it work, and even then you don't get everything the Ninja includes. AAAAAAND the battery life will suck if you need more than an hour at a time.
I have been using the Ninja for the last month, and all I can say is that it's worth its weight in gold.
@ronadair
Thank you for that breakdown. It helps a lot. SInce I posted a couple hours ago I have been on a tear, looking at various docks and SSDs... you are right, it does add up.
Are you using HDD or SSDs? Do you have any feedback regarding the HDD vs SSD in terms of in-field use for reliable, durable, rugged performance?
I imagine the SSD's are appreciably faster than the 7200 HDD's...?
And if I may, when you get back to the office, what is your solution for back-up? Do you just plug Ninja in and daisy-chain to external Terabyte storage?
Thank you.
redirector said:
C. A Mac Mini Server has an HDMI connection. Does this present an alternative scenario, or is that Mac Mini HDMI only suitable to drive video display out?
The Mac Mini HDMI port is out only. But you could use this from Blackmagic to capture HDMI with a Mac Mini.
Oh, and here is a docking station that can take SSDs.
The upcoming Atomos Ninja 2 discussed by ronadair looks good.
The OS for both models is now certified for the D800!
@dormant
Thank you. I saw that Ninja 2 and had my inquiry in already! Glad there are options. For my part, it is as much about workflow and storage as it is about video image quality, which on the D800 is well ahead of where I was on the D90.
Bottom line, clients will be well served and I should have even more project capacity in a few months. This is great evolution.
fishnose said:
Surely that must be 1.6 Gb/s and 220Mb/s. The data rates you quote are unreasonable.
Indeed, you are correct. I'm surprised I missed it, because it drives me nuts too. The worst though is when companies are advertising a product/service mistakenly (or deviantly?) listing bytes instead of bits. Arrrgh!
redirector said:
@ronadair
Are you using HDD or SSDs? Do you have any feedback regarding the HDD vs SSD in terms of in-field use for reliable, durable, rugged performance?I imagine the SSD's are appreciably faster than the 7200 HDD's...?
I was planning on using a Crucial SSD, but at the recommendation of Atomos I decided to give a 7200rpm HDD a try. All I could buy in that speed from Best Buy was a Seagate 500gb drive (my excitement would grant no patience for internet shipping ;) ). The drive has done great, and I haven't had any issues with speed, neither via the Ninja nor when editing through the docking station. Obviously, you want to take great care to not drop the drive, but if the heads are parked (drive is not powered), then the chance of losing data or damaging the drive beyond repair is minimal. If you need mission-critical, bullet-proof data safety, then definitely get SSD. I'll be using both, and after using the Ninja for more than a month I realize the cost of a few SSDs (for mission critical stuff) is pennies when you realize you can likely fit an entire project on a 256 drive with room to spare. If you want to keep the original drive as a master copy, then factor that into the cost of your work, or go HDD.
RE: Speed - While it is true that SSDs are significantly faster at read/write speeds compared to most HDDs, I don't think you're going to hit a wall while using these drives for video work with the exception of (potentially) during large file transfers to another volume ONLY while using firewire 800 or faster. According to the tests over here, the drive I picked up will sustain read speeds on video files at 98MB/s (which factors out to 784Mbits/second) while the top limits of Firewire 800 are, erm, 800Mb/s (see what they did there?). If you are using USB3, Thunderbolt, or esata, then you'd potentially run into bottleneck issues ON TRANSFERS ONLY. Otherwise, you'll do just fine.
But here's why the drive will never be your bottleneck while editing: The highest data rate possible at 1920x1080 resolution using ProRes HQ 422 is 220mb/s (at 30fps). That means that you've got ~550mbps headroom in your bandwidth during normal playback from a firewire device. If you're using the much superior ;) 24fps, you'll be running 176 Mb/s, leaving even more headroom. Theoretically you could even use USB2, though transfer speeds would be slower. In fact, I've used USB2 for editing directly on the volume and it performed just fine, though I prefer FireWire 800 simply because I have always loathed the dreaded drudgery of USB.
redirector said:
And if I may, when you get back to the office, what is your solution for back-up? Do you just plug Ninja in and daisy-chain to external Terabyte storage?
I personally have a G-Tech G-Safe which has 2 Firewire 800 ports. I personally run the Mac to the G-Safe, then the G-Safe to the Ninja when I want to back up files.
Hope that helps!
@ronadair
Great post, many thanks! That all sounds great, and I follow your speed references... Looks like Firewire 800 was built to match up to 7200 HDDs. Glad Atomos is recommending the HDD's, too. I would have guessed Crucial, I use them routinely for RAM upgrades. Do you find yourself dedicating HDD's to specific clients, or does your footage cross-purpose such that you use the same HDD across jobs?
Ninja2 looks like a worth-waiting-for update. While investigating the blackmagic hyper deck, I had convinced myself that the Ninja screen was not going to be necessary/useful, but now I see with the ability to mark, favorite and reject clips directly on screen, that is an even more efficient workflow, eliminating more screen time on FCPX. It just keeps getting better.
Digging into Mac Mini specs, I am struck by the power it now possesses... My once-vaunted 24" iMac would seem to be a virtual abacus by comparison. But, even the Macs are due for upgrades this summer, so just doing this one step at a time will work well -- FCPX in use now; D800 and 24-70mm 2.8 in hand; Ninja 2 in time; adopt the HDD process flow; then upgrade the Mac this summer.
In dreamworld, I can even see one D800 rigged for beautiful FX 1080p HDMI-out video full-time, and a second on hand for photos and as a second video shooter (and a compact 1080p as a 3rd, with FCPX handling multi-cam editing). If I can convert these improvements into value that clients will benefit from, why not?
Hey guys, new here and wondering if anyone else has had this issue before/knows how to resolve. I picked up a D800 today purely because I'm into video and needed a DSLR that was capable of outputting a *live* 720p or 1080i via HDMI so I could perform live capture. For the capture, I'm using a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (USB3) and attempting to capture a live signal from the D800.
I have been able to capture signals via HDMI from HD video cameras using the Intensity Shuttle, at both 720p and 1080i, but I seem to be unable to do so with the D800. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong as a user and am hoping there's someone out there in the same boat as me that has a D800 and/or D4 along with the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (the one that connects via USB3, NOT the one with the internal SSD). I have all the required hardware for the Blackmagic as well.
Someone please tell me what idiot mistake I am making... but first possibly a clue. I am able to get a signal from the camera when BlackMagic MediaExpress software is set to 720p @ 59.94 FPS. However, that FPS is not supported natively on the D800 as HDMI output. It does support 720p @ 60FPS though. When I configure the BM software to capture using AVI Motion JPEG I'm able to get video from the D800, but it has a weird flicker. Doesn't look like dropped frames, just a weird flicker. When I configure the BM software to capture the 720p/60FPS, it captures nothing.
Any clues/ideas? I really need a clean signal, ideally @ 1080i, but 720p would do...
Justin
Hey everyone -- great posts -- thanks for the info.
One question about the Ninja 2, it accepts the 10bit 4:2:2 stream from the d800(e) and enodes it on the fly with ProRes or DNxHD... but can it simply record the uncompressed data without intervening with a codec? I'm getting the sinking feeling it can't...
I think the Ninja2 has all the options I'm looking for however, I noticed that the Hyper Deck Shuttle can actually record the stream as "uncompressed" (no codec applied). Data fidelity is king in my workflow -- the uncompressed HD out is ultimately one of the key reasons I opted for the d800. I need to make sure my pipeline keeps the info as pure as possible as long as I can in the process.
If the answer is no, does anyone know if Ninja plans to tackle this?
Cheers
@jph
Can I ask what you're wanting to do with this footage that completely uncompressed footage is a must? (For most folks, anything above ProRes/DNxHD is overkill, but I'd love to know if my post below is off the mark for your particular workflow.)
I realize you want ultimate data integrity, but you should know (if you don't already) that the 4:2:2 "uncompressed" data from the D800 is in fact compressed, albeit with the high-quality 4:2:2 chroma subsampling method. In other words, there is no way to get a true uncompressed stream from the Nikon. You actually don't even have a raw stream, as it appears that it has been processed along the pipeline somewhere before the picture styles are applied. This is a bit of a shame, as the true dynamic range of that sensor is noticeably higher than what we see in the video results even when a flat profile is applied. That said, the D800 produces some incredible images when recorded to the card, much cleaner images when captured on something like the Ninja/Ninja 2, and much fatter images when captured uncompressed on something like the Hyper Deck Shuttle.
I looked at the HDS option as well, but I would be pretty surprised if you saw any difference between the HDS "uncompressed" footage and the ProRes HQ (or DNxHD) options. The footage from the Ninja is clean. Sure, it's not RAW, and it lacks some of the advantages of some of a $50k-$100k setup (Think: RED), but if moderate care is taken with the shots, then the D800/Ninja combo can produce images that look and grade very well compared even to a camera like the RED, at a fraction of the price. When I tested the Ninja earlier this year, I felt like I was looking at RED footage — it was flat, clean, and could be pushed 100 miles either which way in post. As I said above, I doubt non-ProRes footage will do any more than that for you. And at the price of the shuttle and the 10x storage needs, I highly doubt the value is there for you. Not to mention the Ninja 2 is a screen, a review unit, and even a workflow aid with SmartLog adding the ability to tag scenes right on the unit, which then become your pre-edit shots ready to literally drop right on the timeline in FCP and other editors (soon, apparently).
Now if you can point me in the direction of that mortally wounded equine I've been hearing so much about, I need to give my stick a workout. ;)
@ronadair
I'm sending my footage directly to post so the fewer times my footage is processed before it gets there, the better. I think Ninja 2 has many attractive features and I can see why anyone in an FCP based broadcast workflow would seriously consider purchasing it. There are a couple of examples floating about on the net showing the color shift when encoding the HDMI source directly to ProRes. I don't mind the flatness of an "uncompressed capture" because that just indicates the footage doesn't yet have a LUT/tonal curve applied -- I can handle that in post -- no problem. Once I have applied the proper LUT, yes I can see a difference between "uncompressed" capture and the ProRes... and yes, having the extra data there will make a difference in post.
If 4:2:2 is the best data I can get, I'm extra sensitive about any process that further compresses/encodes/manipulates my footage. I'd much rather take my straight HDMI source footage through post than an encoded and compressed version of an already encoded and compressed 4:2:2 image. You mentioned the RED -- another 4:2:2 signal... I'm sure you would agree that you get a much cleaner image by working with RED footage natively instead of baking all your footage to an intermediate (DPX) format and then using the transferred footage as your source -- you see what I'm getting at, right?
Clearly, we can't expect the D800 to compete with cameras offering RGB 4:4:4 output -- my point is simply about having the ability to capture the 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI source without encoding it... there is a difference -- I wish the Ninja 2 offered it.
gravis8000 said:
Hey guys, new here and wondering if anyone else has had this issue before/knows how to resolve. I picked up a D800 today purely because I'm into video and needed a DSLR that was capable of outputting a *live* 720p or 1080i via HDMI so I could perform live capture. For the capture, I'm using a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (USB3) and attempting to capture a live signal from the D800.I have been able to capture signals via HDMI from HD video cameras using the Intensity Shuttle, at both 720p and 1080i, but I seem to be unable to do so with the D800. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong as a user and am hoping there's someone out there in the same boat as me that has a D800 and/or D4 along with the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (the one that connects via USB3, NOT the one with the internal SSD). I have all the required hardware for the Blackmagic as well.
Someone please tell me what idiot mistake I am making... but first possibly a clue. I am able to get a signal from the camera when BlackMagic MediaExpress software is set to 720p @ 59.94 FPS. However, that FPS is not supported natively on the D800 as HDMI output. It does support 720p @ 60FPS though. When I configure the BM software to capture using AVI Motion JPEG I'm able to get video from the D800, but it has a weird flicker. Doesn't look like dropped frames, just a weird flicker. When I configure the BM software to capture the 720p/60FPS, it captures nothing.
Any clues/ideas? I really need a clean signal, ideally @ 1080i, but 720p would do...
Justin
Justin,
Any luck yet? I am in the exact same position, with a D800E and the Blackmagic Intensity Extreme (thunderbolt).
I think I managed to get the D800E sending HDMI, after finding a how-to on Thom Hogan's website. You need to
go to the HDMI - Advanced menu and change a couple of things.
Having done that, I can't capture anything using the device and the supplied software (Blackmagic Media Express). I don't seem to be able to find a format that both the D800E and the Intensity Extreme support.
The formats available on the Intensity Extreme are:
- HD 1080p 23.98
- HD 1080p 24
- HD 1080p 25
- HD 1080p 29.97
- HD 1080p 30
- HD 1080i 50
- HD 1080i 59.94
- HD 1080i 60
- HD 720p 50
- HD 720p 59.94
- HD 720p 60
@jph
I could very well be ignorant to how things are working here, but how can capturing the footage in a 10-bit wrapper make any significant difference when the output stream from the D800 is limited to 8-bit? I recognize there is *potentially* a slight amount of degradation from the ProRes Compression, but as for any practical uses, I don't see how it would ever be evidenced in real life, especially taking into account the extra overhead needed to do so.
Can you show any visible differences between the raw stream and the ProRes stream when captured by something like the Ninja? I just can't believe there is any significant difference. As I said above, I may be wrong. If there is a real difference (and more than a speculative need driven by fear of 'possible' degradation), I'd love to see it. Anything that makes the D800 notably better is better.
@ronadair
Your insight is very helpful -- you've got a great brain for this stuff and you're very well informed. I want to be clear about the fact that I'm not aiming to be on the opposite side of the table from you on this one... I'm merely trying to weed through the onslaught of quasi-mis-information on the web about how to make the very most of the differences the d800 offers.
The output from the d800(e) HDMI is a 10-bit 4:2:2 stream if left untouched. I'm seeing some websites claiming the output is only 8bit -- not sure where they are getting this info. I'll chalk it up to the confusion around te d800's specs -- much like the initial stories that it couldn't output 1080p24... we know it can.
I should also point out, again, that I am coming from a VFX and post background -- my first concern is getting the best data possible; and keeping it as clean as possible throughout the entire production process. My workflow spec is simply based on proper color theory and the VFX process -- I don't expect this will be relevant to the way many work if they aren't concerned about keeping as much flexibility possible through out the process. Going directly to ProRes will probably be the best solution for many that really aren't concerned that much about post/grading/vfx... but if you are a film maker, this stuff should definitely concern you. I am amazed when I speak with a director that has no clue about the differences between 4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:2:2+0:2:2, and 4:4:4... yet they expect to be able to "fix it in post"... And they will sit there and tell me how awesome their 4k footage is... until I ask them if they know what debayering is... and that their RED isn't really shooting a true 4k... and how I can take 2K rgb 4:4:4 footage, process it faster with more accuracy, and it will look better, in a shorter time, than their "4k" 4:2:2 footage run through the same process... I'm simply getting into the finer points of the output for those that might find it helpful. The ability to save the "untouched" output stream from the camera directly to disk without a codec is the very reason many opted for this camera.
Those coming from the world of VFX and post most likely have the horsepower and storage space to support a linear floating point workflow already... so "uncompressed" 10bit vs. ProRes HQ will make very little difference to a system that's setup to fly with 2k muli-channel floating point exr frame sequences.
I'm betting a lot of members on this forum saw the DP review write-up of the d800 and d800e -- they do a nice job of touching on the advantages of uncompressed in the video section:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/30
Another interesting article that breaks down different recording/caputure solutions available for the d800 and mentions the many strengths the Ninja2 has going for it... and ranks it at #2 due to the fact that it is unable to capture the "uncompressed" stream:
Regarding visible differences -- that's not really a valid standard of measurement. Water and hydrochloric acid "look the same" but they sure behave differently in the lab! People see things differently. What is an obvious difference to some may go completely unnoticed to others... If you are planning to post process/grade your footage then you are operating on a level much more accurate than the human eye... and assuming you are using decent software, the computer will always see the difference and it will work better with the uncompressed data. Why would you leave it up to your eyes to prove the difference? To recap -- your eyes may not see a difference -- the software definitely will.
Again, I do not blame the Ninja 2, I blame the codec. I think the Ninja2 could easily do what I'm asking with a firmware upgrade.
Either way, after buying a few fast memory cards at around $100 a pop, the better and better an external capture solution starts to look!
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