Security when doing night photos « Nikon Rumors Forum

Nikon Rumors Forum » Nikon DSLR

Security when doing night photos

(56 posts) (26 voices)

Started 1 year ago by msmoto
Latest reply from msmoto
Related Topics:
1. All you abusers post your Nikon Drop test experience here.
2. Nikon 60mm Micro f/2.8 for $440 at NewEgg tonight

Tags:

« Previous 123 Next »

donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Kimber's pepper spray guns look very good because they offer a gunpowder explosion delivery of the pepper spray which should be much better than the normal air pressured pepper spray system. I have never heard of any use of these products so their use in the field has not been validated to my knowledge. You will have only two shots so better be calm and aim well or the Kimber pepper spray gun will be out of "bullets" and totally useless. They are not going to help you if more than two people threaten you. While there are some reloadable Kimber pepper spray guns you are not going to have time to reload.

<embed flashVars="" src="

[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video

Text-Link:

HTML-Link:

BB-Code:

Embed:

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

More info on the Kimber pepper gun

[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video

Text-Link:

HTML-Link:

BB-Code:

Embed:

Posted 1 year ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

I ran across this and thought it was a good realization what works and what doesn't.
There is a major difference in what makes you "feel" safe and what actually does.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/rLN6_s66wTg

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Yes, in highly stressful situations it is difficult to remain calm and actually do what you are trying to do. Police often shoot lots of bullets without hitting their target. I have seen articles of a policeman emptying his clip containing 15 bullets without hitting the criminal shooter who is standing just 10 or 15 feet away! Fortunately, criminals rarely practice their shooting skills and tend to be highly inaccurate also.

You can criticize the citizen shooters in the video but realistically, what are the alternatives? Do you have a better way to protect yourself and the other students? Take that classroom situation in the video. If you cannot shoot back what do you do? Hide under a desk and hope the gunman doesn't just walk around the classroom shooting everyone? Do you just let him execute 15 people until his clip is empty and then rush him as he reloads? By the time you realize his clip is empty and he is reloading and you stand up to rush him he may already have reloaded and you simply make yourself his easy next target. Do you think pepper spray is going to be more effective than a handgun in the situation depicted? Do you think some sort of martial arts moves are going to be more effective than a handgun? Do you think you can run out the classroom door when the shooter entered through that door and is standing between you and the door?

The students are criticized in the video for not taking cover when shooting. But realistically most bullets can easily go right through the wood paneling any student would hide behind. The movies always show people hiding behind doors or corners as if you are safe if you cannot be seen. Not true. I have shot plenty of times though doors and drywall to realize they offer no protection. Don't shoot at the hand holding the gun around the corner. Just shoot through the wall at were the guy must be standing to get his hand around that corner. As long as that wall is not brick or cement block your bullet will penetrate through the wall and into the man.

The biggest "correction" the students need to make is to train themselves to remain calm under stress. Slower more accurate shooting is the correct answer for both police and private citizens confronted with a life or death situation. "Spray and pray" shooting is no good. 15 shots sprayed all over the room without ending the threat is no good. It only takes one well aimed shot to end the threat and save lives. If you are going to carry a gun you need to train yourself to be able to remain calm and make that well placed shot your first shot. If you are not going to carry a gun you will be placing yourself at the mercy of the criminal and that is not a good place to be because most criminals have no mercy. If they did, they wouldn't be intending to harm you in the first place.

Yes, the issue is a tough one and everyone can make their own decision as to what to do. The best thing may be to never go anywhere you feel you could be at risk in the first place. But then, we don't know when or where a criminal may appear so there is some risk everywhere, even in church on Sunday morning.

Posted 1 year ago #
spraynpray

preferred member
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,514
offline

This thread is losing the plot I think.

Taking photos is for fun or for money - neither of which are worth getting shot/stabbed/beaten for. Give them your stuff and money, write them cheques if necessary ;-), hope it is enough for them, claim on your insurance and think yourself lucky that you survived then take some time to think about where you take your photos in future.

donaldejose said:
But then, we don't know when or where a criminal may appear so there is some risk everywhere, even in church on Sunday morning.

Some of the worst inhumanity to man is done in the name of religion, so perhaps it shouldn't be a surprise if somebody comes into your church because they think their religion trumps yours.

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Yes, I have seen news articles about guys walking into church on a Sunday morning and starting to shoot everyone there. Likely, those guys were just crazy. I have known churches to respond by having a member with a concealed carry permit sit in the very back row near the door for a few months after such an event in case some "copycat" nut thinks he should do it also.

When I was in Israel I saw plenty of young soldiers (men and women) walking around everywhere with rifles over their shoulder and a handgun tucked into their pants. As I photographed the wailing wall and other areas I was glad for their presence. I always tried to keep track of who had guns around me, what type they were and how they operated. In case trouble broke out I figured one of those guns would soon be available to me. I could not carry a gun to Israel and I doubt I could have borrowed or rented one while there but if a fight broke out I could pick one up from a wounded or dead soldier (or policeman) and defend myself. In Israel, suicide attackers are not out to take your camera or money, they are out to kill you before they die themselves.

The best "security" for night photography is to only go where you feel secure in the first place! I have spent plenty of time photographing buildings and fountains at night; but only were I saw other people and police.

No night time shooting in "shady" parts of town for me. I think that would be foolish.

Posted 1 year ago #
kyoshinikon

preferred member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 1,200
offline

I am a sucker for alleyways when doing street photography so I've learned to be swift-footed and keep my distance... My weapon of choice is a 300mm f2.8 on a black rapid strap :P

Honestly though I do consider my monopod a weapon. It is best to know the area I am shooting in so I know where to run to...

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

big gun cougar
Joined: Mar '10
Posts: 2,736
offline

Rebirthing this thread..... my son, with a pit bull and a cane corso/pit bull mix and his fiancé with a Rottweiler, all on leashes, of course, will be about twenty feet behind me. And with a whistle. So, should some complete suicidal idiot decide they want my D4, well, it may be costly for them.

The bottom line for night security may be a companion, dog on leash is good, but the whistle, which will frighten any would be attackers and draw attention to a situation, may be the safest way to shoot at night. Of course it does cost a dinner for three... And the dog owners must maintain good housecleaning techniques.

See photo http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=4581&page=6

Posted 1 year ago #
Wataru

preferred member
Joined: Feb '12
Posts: 248
offline

Keep safe, msmoto! No way you'll get a concealed carry permit in San Francisco, so that wouldn't be an option anyway.

Dogs are good, but I always have thought of my F2 on the end of my neck strap as an emergency "keep back" device. More dangerous than a nunchaku, and perfectly legal.

Posted 1 year ago #
spraynpray

preferred member
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,514
offline

Wataru said:
No way you'll get a concealed carry permit in San Francisco, so that wouldn't be an option anyway.

Yeah right - you ever tried stuffing a pit bull in your jacket?

Posted 1 year ago #
Treckie

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 561
offline

Nothing says get a job and buy your own stuff better than the bulge of a Kimber custom II in your jacket.

Posted 1 year ago #
Frankzor3421

member
Joined: Mar '12
Posts: 14
offline

My security are my hands and my Manfrotto monopod :)

Posted 1 year ago #
kevin pan

member
Joined: Mar '12
Posts: 40
offline

I strongly agree using a pepper spray (best option) or a packet knife ( might have legal issue) at night.

As a experienced junior high kick-boxer , high school wrestler, college judo, boxer, mixed martial artist , self defense practitioner ( and many more) , I'd use a pepper spray in real life situation to save my life. I would not rely on any of my boxing ,muay thai, and jujitsu skills. Of course if you can use a knife, that would be even better. There is nothing more dangerous than a knife in a close range combat. And fighting someone would be my last defense . I wouldn't get into this situation at first by never go out alone to a dangerous area.

I think woman has far more potential danger than man. There are some trolls out there hunting woman with no morals. They think they are so bad ass and they believe they could do whatever they want. Specially walking around downtown S.F , you often find those kind trolls around. I believe its our duty to help whenever we spot a helpless woman facing a danger. i encourage woman carry a weapon at all time.

Posted 1 year ago #
TheLostNinja

member
Joined: Mar '12
Posts: 36
offline

+1 for the wallet tossing & pepper spray, -1 for donaldejose trying to make you wear a gun.

I think i am getting to spoiled here in Japan ... safety at night out alone is just not really an issue here. No need for fake wallets.

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

big gun cougar
Joined: Mar '10
Posts: 2,736
offline

Gosh, I am so into a Glock w/ 147gr hollow point, but this is maybe not for me. FYI, I am in Greensboro, North Carolina, so San Francisco was just where I was at 4 or 5 AM. The two Pit Bulls and one Rottweiler and the dog handler's carrying a whistle will allow me to go about anywhere.

When alone, the problem is one of blind spots. And the criminals tend to come from nowhere, running, as they pass they knock you down and grab the camera going past. Often they will carry a cutting tool to take care of the strap, and if one has a security strap, steel cable or other, this means a broken arm or shoulder as they do not seem to care. If two or more are on the move.... more difficulty.

So, the incredible deterrent of three extremely capable animals, all of which are very well trained, is no doubt the way I will go. Incidentally, the training of these dogs is such that when fed, they sit looking at the food bowl until permission to eat is given.

Mmmm... the Glock, sounds so tempting, though. Only, when they go down, so does your camera.....

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Risk varies with area and the type of people inhabiting that area. In 95% of America you can walk around all night long with essentially no risk. I was addressing what options exist in the other 5% when you want to go somewhere and you know it will be dangerous. Sure you can dial 911 and the police will be there to help you -- in about 10 to 20 minutes. But what will happen to you during those first 10 minutes? The strongest support you can have is a handgun. The wind will never blow the bullet back into your face like it can blow pepper spray back into your face. The best use of a handgun is really to deter criminals. When they see you pull it out as they approach, they simply leave you alone. That is what you want. You cannot shoot someone after they have taken your camera gear and are running away from you. You can only shoot when you are in reasonable danger of serious bodily harm and that danger no longer exists when they are running away. You cannot shoot to retrieve your property or to punish the person who stole it.

A 90 pound woman is stronger than three 190 pound dudes when she is holding a handgun in her hand as they size her up as a potential victim. Even the dumbest criminal knows that bullets can reach them long before they can reach you. Nothing says "don't mess with me" as well as a handgun. Of course, you must be alert to see the danger well before it is upon you and when we are looking at the scene for composition and looking through the viewfinder, it is easy to lose track of what is happening behind us.

Everyone is free to take whatever risk they want to take. I prefer to place as much risk taking upon the criminal and as little on me as possible. Likewise, I prefer to not give advice which places risk on the potential victim. For example, a whistle is only good when others hear it and look. So it is good in a crowded park in the middle of the day but it is of no value when you are alone at night and there is no one around other than you and the criminal. When the criminal looks around and sees no one is hearing your whistle they proceed as if it doesn't exist. Blow it all you want, you will only be a winded victim. A dog or dogs is a good idea. But if you are alone with a dog and your camera gear on a tripod and the dog starts to bark at a potential criminal you have to turn your attention to controlling that dog and by the time you turn your attention back to your camera on the tripod you may discover the criminal's compatriot in crime took it while the first criminal distracted you and your dog. More people and more dogs are good but of course then you need more people and more dogs. If you can pay people, just hire a security guard in the first place. I was addressing what a person could do when all alone. So all solutions can have weaknesses. Just don't go where you don't feel safe. No photo is worth it.

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

big gun cougar
Joined: Mar '10
Posts: 2,736
offline

donaldejose said:
Just don't go where you don't feel safe. No photo is worth it.

Yup, this is the bottom line. The dogs belong to my kids. I buy dinner, then we go "for a walk". The whistle is held by my son and is used to tell me someone is approaching from my blind side. Thus, I can turn and confront with a flashlight....LED flashing in the approaching individuals eyes. Or, the kids approach with the dogs, saying a little word, "Speak" which brings on a cacophony of barking.

Alone, requires a lot of very high level of alertness and as you have said, the gun can ONLY be used when one is approached. Legally to shoot someone retreating with the cameras does not work. Way too much force for the crime.

This has been an interesting thread. And, the final truth is exactly what you have said, donaldejose, No photo is worth it!

Posted 1 year ago #
TheLostNinja

member
Joined: Mar '12
Posts: 36
offline

It's probably a cultural thing. People just don't walk around with guns in the places i grew up and lived (Switzerland/New Zealand/Japan) ... violent crime in those places is relatively low and walking around with a gun is something only "crazy" people or people with a low self esteem would do.

Maybe i would change my point of view about guns if i lived in the states ... but I am still very skeptical that carrying a gun is the right thing. Plenty of stats and research out there that suggests that it's probably not if you value your health and life over property (that is probably insured anyway, right?).

Posted 1 year ago #
spraynpray

preferred member
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,514
offline

I would think most people would struggle to have the mindset in place to take good photos and also at any moment be fully prepared to whip out a handgun to possibly kill an assailant - even if they have the requisite skill and courage. The two things just don't gell together.

I also think people are very brave behind a keyboard but considerably less so in reality.

Not meant to offend, just try to be real. Best to go out in a large group perhaps.

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

big gun cougar
Joined: Mar '10
Posts: 2,736
offline

And, do not forget. A firearm requires a practice session at least once a month to maintain any degree of proficiency. This is in and of itself a time consuming and very expensive activity if one goes through 40-50 rounds.....

Posted 1 year ago #
Wataru

preferred member
Joined: Feb '12
Posts: 248
offline

msmoto said:
And, do not forget. A firearm requires a practice session at least once a month to maintain any degree of proficiency. This is in and of itself a time consuming and very expensive activity if one goes through 40-50 rounds.....

My son is an Army ROTC student who shoots service sidearms competitively. I often go with him for his practice sessions. He gets a discount on ammo, but still, range time is expensive. We easily burn through $200 a session in ammo and range time.

$1,200 for the Sig and $1100 for the modified Beretta (corresponds to Canon vs Nikon), and $0.40 a shot for the ammo. It's like shooting color print photos in my old film days!

Posted 1 year ago #
IndyGeoff

preferred member
Joined: Aug '10
Posts: 107
offline

A big dog that doesn't like stranger is an nice option. It will alert you to anyone sneaking up and anyone that keeps coming at you while your dog is going nuts WANTS to hurt you and you can run like hell while your dog slows them down.

Seriously though, groups seem like the second best option. A police officer being the best.

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

big gun cougar
Joined: Mar '10
Posts: 2,736
offline

IndyGeoff said:
A big dog that doesn't like stranger is an nice option. It will alert you to anyone sneaking up and anyone that keeps coming at you while your dog is going nuts WANTS to hurt you and you can run like hell while your dog slows them down.

Seriously though, groups seem like the second best option. A police officer being the best.

Yeah, those firearms are very costly.

In Greensboro, NC, the police officers cost about $28 per hour, three hour minimum. So, if two folks share this it is $42 for couple hours. Also, groups at night generally will lose a lot of the ambiance. I will let you all know if any problems develop with the dogs.

Posted 1 year ago #
BenH

member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 14
offline

Wow, yeah... Treasure Island at 5am. You were asking for trouble if you weren't there with a large crowd or with off duty cops like you said. (The police presence on the island is to answer calls, not to protect people taking pictures at 5am) That's a good vantage point of the city, though. You like Dark Alleys and City Streets Late at Night? Lady, if you're into looking for trouble, you'll eventually find it and in the People's Republic, the law is there to protect the criminals not regular folk so forget about using dogs or firearms.

Posted 1 year ago #
msmoto

big gun cougar
Joined: Mar '10
Posts: 2,736
offline

BenH said:
Wow, yeah... Treasure Island at 5am. You were asking for trouble if you weren't there with a large crowd or with off duty cops like you said. (The police presence on the island is to answer calls, not to protect people taking pictures at 5am) That's a good vantage point of the city, though. You like Dark Alleys and City Streets Late at Night? Lady, if you're into looking for trouble, you'll eventually find it and in the People's Republic, the law is there to protect the criminals not regular folk so forget about using dogs or firearms.

Yeah, but I have done two solo cross country trips on a motorcycle, the last at age 66. And I regularly park my motorhome in truck stops. But, it could be the 3/4 inch fingernails with razor sharp edges, and the fact I hiss at strangers...??? And when my eyes turn green and flash, somehow the individuals approaching seem to retreat. Or, my T-shirt which says: "New Mexico Institute for the Criminally Insane, Albuquerque, New Mexico"

Well, I must agree with you about Treasure Island..... and had no one shown up, my photo would have been nice. But my safety became the primary goal and thus I had to "focus" on my "guest". And as most card players will tell you, one doesn't show all her cards at once. There were some other safe guards in place which I have not mentioned. And, gosh, I guess I need to get that plastic explosive with the loss-of-proximity-detonator updated as well..... huh? (Just kidding)

Oh, BenH, welcome to NRF. There is a vast amount of knowledge and then some real strange people like me here..... but one can learn a lot by just hanging around.

Posted 1 year ago #