D4 - high ISO Image Quality « Nikon Rumors Forum

Nikon Rumors Forum » Nikon DSLR

D4 - high ISO Image Quality

(78 posts) (22 voices)

Started 1 year ago by donaldejose
Latest reply from studio460
Related Topics:
1. Is the Nikon reputation for high quality starting to slip away on them?
2. Incredible D4 Image Quality Comparison

Tags:

5:4 crop mode

12…4 Next »

donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Take a look at the photos on this website

http://www.bezergheanu.com/TestNikon/Nikon-D4Nikkor-8518-af-s/20915871_LhHTdj#!i=1661291650&k=VdDqgDb

1. click on the thumbnail to get the image to appear at the right
2. move cursor to right of image and a blue box with an i appears, click on the i for info including the ISO at which the image was taken
3. compare the different ISO images at X3 large (above the i in the blue box) and a photo will more than fill your monitor. This is about a double page spread size.
4. now vote as to the highest ISO that you think could be used "in the real world" as a full page or double page spread in a magazine.

I think 25,400 ISO images from the D4 are usable full page or double page. What do you think?

Posted 1 year ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

I agree in good lighting. I would like to see some very dark (bar, alley) images to see how turn out. As usual the magenta noise screams.

I did convert some to B&W and one could easily use 101,600 with some contrast and burning.

Simply amazing.

Posted 1 year ago #
jerl

preferred member
Joined: Dec '10
Posts: 425
offline

I'd have to agree, that sample looks pretty good. I'd be curious to see what realistic pictures taken in iso 25k looks like, but so far it is looking good.

Apparently, according to one of the videos on the front page, Nikon has said the D4 is supposed to be one stop better than the D3s, a claim I find a bit dubious, but the samples are looking pretty good. I'd still like to wait until we get some practical head-head comparisons between the two.

Posted 1 year ago #
SkintBrit

preferred member
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 1,149
offline

jerl said: I'd still like to wait until we get some practical head-head comparisons between the two.

Yep me too. I'm sure we won't have to wait long.

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

While far from an apples-to-apples comparison, I just compared one of my own high-ISO D3s images, shot at ISO 8,000, to the berzergheanu D4 images. Of course, I'll reserve final judgement until more studied tests are available, but I was a bit surprised at how close in noise level the D3s appeared to be:

Nikon D3s; AF-S 85mm f/1.4G; ISO: 8,000; f/1.4 @ 1/125th; night interior; available-light.

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

100% crop: Nikon D3s at ISO 8,000

Source info: Although I also shot in RAW, this crop is from the out-of-camera .JPG fine. The only post-process applied was a color-space conversion to sRGB in PhotoMechanic. Low-Wattage fluorescents, placed high in the ceiling (18'-20' high), and some dim, red-colored incandescent downlights in the walls, were the only ambient sources present. Although it may not look like it due to the high ISO and wide-open aperture, it was super-dark in there (think, "night-club" dark).

Thoughts? Comments?

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

Here's a flash-supplemented Nikon D7000 image from that event which more closely resembles what the location looked like to the eye (minus the subtle illumination on the dancer from the flash):

[Note: The flash, an SB-800, was handheld left of camera (my left arm extended) with an SC-29, shot through a small 6" x 9" softbox, with full-CTO taped over the flash head.]

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

The D3s seems "noisier" to me than the D4 images at ISO 8,000. One source says Nikon reps have told him the D4 has one stop cleaner noise than the D3s so if you were happy with the D3s at 3200 you will be happy with the D4 at 6400. Add one third more pixels and reduce noise one stop compared to the D3s seems to be one of the things the D4 offers.

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

Well, call me crazy, but the berzergheanu ISO 6400 D4 image (I didn't see an ISO 8000 image presented) actually appeared noisier than my D3s' image at ISO 8000, at least to my eyes. Granted, this is a wholly imprecise comparison, and we don't know if the berzergheanu D4 images are from a final release body, or if they're from a D4 with only beta-version firmware.

Now, if the D4 achieves a noise floor, at like ISOs, similar to the D3s', that's still a slight win in the D4's favor (though not as significant a win as the claimed one-stop improvement would be, should that prove true in the final release), since the D4 is offering a higher-resolution image. That said, perhaps, the D4's talents will be better shown on the other end of the scale--at its base ISO. Shooting a D4 at ISO 100, compared with a D3s image, shot at its base ISO of 200, may make for a more compelling discussion, as foreshadowed by Joe McNally's gorgeous D4 images, shot at ISO 100, hosted on the Nikon Japan site.

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

I am thinking only of the D3s vs. D4 for the photographer who doesn't need and won't use the new video features of the D4. Even if the D4 provides one stop cleaner high ISO with a few extra megapixels, it seems to me that one stop isn't worth twice the price. Thus, when a used D3s body falls to half the price of a D4 it will be a better value for a still photographer who wants to shoot in low light.

For the photographer who wants to shoot in good bright light the D800 may be the best tool and the best value.

For the photographer who wants the best value overall, it may be the D400 or even the D7100.

We will see how this all shakes out at the end of this year when all cameras are out and have been reviewed many times.

Posted 1 year ago #
SquamishPhoto

preferred member
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,076
offline

Who says that the price of the D3s is going to drop to $3000 any time soon?

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

We have to wait about 6 months to see if it does as the D3s users sell their D3s camera to finance a D4 when the D4 is readily available. We might find a "glut" of D3 and D3s cameras on the used camera market with a price drop to about 3 grand. Right now there are not enough D4 cameras available to cause any glut of D3 or D3s bodies but a switch to D4 is inevitable.

"Thus, when a used D3s body falls to half the price of a D4 it will be a better value for a still photographer who wants to shoot in low light."

Posted 1 year ago #
Rx4Photo

preferred member
Joined: Oct '10
Posts: 951
offline

I think 6 months is being very wishful. I believe that if many D3 and D3s shooters (who don't need video) don't see a major advantage in upgrading to a D4 they will keep on shooting what they have. It's been over a year and the D7000 is still about the same price as when it was introduced. Yeah, many D90 owners did buy a D7K but who knows how many decided to skip the upgrade.

I've found ads for a D3S for sale about 60 miles from me. I haven't inquired because I don't need it but it's $4000.00 USD firm. If it were closer I'd love to at least take a look at it.

Posted 1 year ago #
SquamishPhoto

preferred member
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,076
offline

This isn't going to be like when the D3 came out and just destroyed the value of the D2x and D2xs. And its never going to be a better value for someone who's shooting professionally to take the D3s over the D4. If you're making a living from the machine then its pretty inconsequential how much you ended up paying for it considering how much its going to make you. And to act like the only significant improvements is in the video improvements is kind of missing the obvious. 16MP is a big jump from 12MP. That it still out-performs the D3s in all ways while maintaining its improved resolution is pretty freaking awesome for someone who shoots stills only.

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Many of us don't shoot professionally but would still like a D3s. So I hope all the pros dump their D3s bodies and flood the used market with so many D3s bodies the price drops to below $3,000.

Some comments from a Nikon rep on the question many of us have been asking:

Question: Is there any improvement over the D3s in terms of ISO in the range of 3200-12800?
by Action 7:56 PM

Answer: (Steve Heiner & Lindsay Silverman, Nikon) - I can't tell you quantitatively that it's better by a given amount, but based on what I've seen from a pre-production camera it's every bit as good as what we've seen from our D3S camera, and possibly even better. The processing in this camera is the most sophisticated we've had in a camera to date. Based on the input from the photographers who shot our brochure, they were really impressed with all aspects of the camera, including shooting in low light at high ISO.

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

Very interesting.

From the Nikon spokepersons' message, " . . . based on what I've seen from a pre-production camera, it's every bit as good as what we've seen from our D3S camera . . . " This statement implies that the D4 is merely on parity with the D3s in terms of sensitivity, and does not indicate that the D4 possesses a one-stop sensitivity advantage (at least on the pre-production model they were speaking of). Still, as I said before, a minor win for the D4, since you're getting a higher-resolution image.

For my money, the D4's modest increase in pixel-count is still noticeable enough to warrant further consideration. When comparing 100% crops of low-ISO D3s images with Joe McNally's ISO 100 D4 images, the difference in resolved detail at large magnifications (i.e., large print sizes) still appears significant.

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

Another excerpt from the Nikon Q&A:

Question: "I'd like to ask how the D4 sensor's characteristics, such as dynamic range and noise, compare to the D3s and D3x?"

Answer: " . . . With the D4, the increased resolution means a slightly smaller pixel size. But even with that, even with the expanded ISO range, my sense is that the image quality is at least as good as that in the D3s . . . " --Steve Heiner, Senior Technical Manager, Nikon, Inc., 9 January 2012, Las Vegas, Nevada.

I just read an entire discussion on this topic on another forum. Seems like I'm not alone in thinking the berzergheanu D4 preliminary sample images appear noisier than quasi-equivalent images from a D3s. However, according to those in the thread, the berzergheanu D4 images were produced with a pre-production sample, and pre-release firmware (v0.47). So, given a pre-production D4, with beta-version firmware, and applying less-than-scientific "tests," I'll prudently reserve judgement until the final product is released next month. That said, I don't plan on selling my D3s anytime soon.

Posted 1 year ago #
enigmeow

member
Joined: Dec '11
Posts: 43
offline

I just read an entire discussion on this topic on another forum. Seems like I'm not alone in thinking the berzergheanu D4 sample images were noisier than my D3s. However, according to those in the thread, the berzergheanu D4 images were produced with a pre-production sample, and pre-release firmware (v0.47). So, given a pre-production D4, with beta-version firmware, and applying less-than-scientific "tests," I'll prudently reserve judgement until the final product is released next month. That said, I don't plan on selling my D3s anytime soon.

I have to admit that after reading that Q&A, while I still plan on getting a D4, expanded and improved ISO over a D3s is no longer "on my list" as a reason over a D3s. I've been pretty disappointed with all the samples I've seen and answer to the question pretty much confirmed what I already was seeing

"...But even with that, even with the expanded ISO range, my sense is that the image quality is at least as good as that in the D3s . . . " --Steve Heiner

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

I too was surprised the Nikon reps were so modest in their comments about the Image Quality of the D4. It should be a significant improvement you can see easily, both in high ISO and in dynamic range. Perhaps when production models are independently reviewed we will have some objective criteria. I look forward to the DxOMark quantitative ratings for comparison.

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Just came back from a camera repair place that services a lot of D3s cameras. They say the shutter is good for about 400,000 shots and a replacement package costs about $350 to $400 so they say to deduct $400 from the price of a used D3s if it has more than 200,000 shutter clicks. Under 200,000 clicks the shutter should still be good for some time.

Posted 1 year ago #
donaldejose

preferred member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 1,043
offline

Hands on initial comment from KR "The D4 is a no-brainer for pro action shooters. Low-light isn't much different than the D3s, but for action, the D4 is king. The magic of the D4 is it gives about the same high ISO performance of the D3s, but with more pixels."

I thought it looked like the D4 had one stop clean higher ISO but maybe not, just more pixels at the same clean high ISO.

Posted 1 year ago #
TravellingSwede

junior member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 8
offline

FYI In Sweden a used D3s is already at or below half the price of a new D4!
@ donaldejose, how can you talk about best value and best tool of the D800 and D400 when they haven't even released the specs!

Posted 1 year ago #
Rx4Photo

preferred member
Joined: Oct '10
Posts: 951
offline

donaldejose said:
I too was surprised the Nikon reps were so modest in their comments about the Image Quality of the D4.

"Under promise and Over deliver" could be at work here.

Posted 1 year ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

Haven't we done this with every camera - "It's not as good"
No matter how many time people are proven wrong, some never learn.

What I am seeing is the greater color depth at higher ISOs!

ISO 6400 - D4

Posted 1 year ago #
studio460

preferred member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1,231
offline

Who never learns, Tao? Whom are you addressing? The point is, a single reviewer reported that a Nikon rep told him that the increased sensitivity of the D4 is "about a stop" better than the D3s (which may or not be accurate), which is about the amount many of us were expecting. Now, Nikon spokespersons are on record saying, "my sense is that the image quality is at least as good as that in the D3s . . . " This disconnect was simply a bit surprising and unexpected, and thus prompted the recent discussion here.

Granted, simply maintaining parity with the D3s, while employing a higher-density sensor, I'm sure, is a significant engineering feat in and of itself, and if Nikon engineers were successful in eeking out more than that, great! Now, given the fact that no proper comparisons have yet been published with a final-release D4, no one can know anything for certain, but the curiously tepid statements from Nikon certainly caught my attention.

Posted 1 year ago #