I came to the same conclusion as Tao. It seems to me the D3s has nothing over the D4. D3s is not clearly better at 6400 ISO than D4. The D4 gives you all D3s clean high ISO and 50% more resolution. There will be no reason (other than cost or a desire for fewer megapixels) to want a D3s over a D4. But others may see it differently. Also Canon really sucks in comparison at 6400 ISO. Hopefully, this means the D3s price will drop. Since it offers nothing over the D4 more people will want to replace it. Predictions had been that the D700 would drop greatly but not the D3s. I hope the D3s drops more than had been predicted since those who can afford to upgrade have no reason not to do so.
Nikon D4 discussion
(189 posts) (48 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
-
@donald - for me it only means that the price of d3s will stay steady, why to overpay for d4 if You ain't getting much more (in terms of photography of course), good news for me as I still can use my d3s and don't bother myself with selling it this year
Posted 1 year ago # -
I can no longer find the link, but a D4/D3s comparison from a Japanese site showed that the D4 bested the D3s in chroma noise at high ISOs. However, luminance noise appeared similar between the two bodies. With chroma noise being the more objectionable at high ISOs, the difference was enough to convince me that the D4 was the superior low-noise performer, if only by a slight margin. If those tests were a fair representation of both bodies, I plan to sell my D3s, once the D4 becomes available.
Posted 1 year ago # -
for the link go to http://www.dpreview.com
you will see the comparison referenced on the home page
Posted 1 year ago # -
If you compare the RAW files on the DPreview comparator, I see the D3s as the clear winner in luminance noise, while the D4 wins in the chroma noise dept. at ISO-6400 and below. In a lot of ways, the D3s wins, because Chroma Noise is easier to get rid of. The D4 has better DR, but the D3s has better saturation at high-ISOs. The D4 does have more detail, due to the added resolution, but I still give the D3s the edge In overall performance. Have a look at the files above ISO-12,800 and up, the D3s wallops the D4 in just about every way and continues from there. Make sure you guys are looking at the RAWs, not JPEGs. Those JPEGs are not straight from the camera, they are processed in Adobe Camera Raw, therefore not an accurate comparison.
I will know more and will have my own comparison as soon the I get our D4 copy. Until then, this is a decent marker of actual performance between these two titans. I might not be getting rid of my D3s after all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Did anyone else see the D4/D3s Macbeth chart images from the Japanese-language website/blog that I mentioned?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Interesting observations, Cary. I haven't looked at the dpreview RAW files yet.
Posted 1 year ago # -
CaryTheLabelGuy said:
... The D4 has better DR, but the D3s has better saturation at high-ISOs. The D4 does have more detail, due to the added resolution....
...Make sure you guys are looking at the RAWs, not JPEGs...For me personally, the better DR and detail beats the D3s and makes the D4 a better choice as I really hate to saturate already dull images. That said, I don't think it takes anything away from the D3s.
I know many disagree with me, but for me only looking at RAW files only is unproductive and can be misleading. It is not the existence of noise that is an issue, but how noise can be handled by software that determines how bad it is. That is why I think Jpegs give a better result to make conclusions from. Looking at Raw to me is like comparing paint finishes on cars by only looking at the primer. The finished product is what matters. Just my two cents.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TaoTeJared said:
For me personally, the better DR and detail beats the D3s and makes the D4 a better choice as I really hate to saturate already dull images. That said, I don't think it takes anything away from the D3s.I know many disagree with me, but for me only looking at RAW files only is unproductive and can be misleading. It is not the existence of noise that is an issue, but how noise can be handled by software that determines how bad it is. That is why I think Jpegs give a better result to make conclusions from. Looking at Raw to me is like comparing paint finishes on cars by only looking at the primer. The finished product is what matters. Just my two cents.
At ISOs above ISO-25,600, the D3s actually retains more detail to my eyes and has much better saturation. It's a tough call.
RAW files are the best indicator of what the sensor is actually doing, therefore a RAW file will always trump a JPEG when doing direct comparisons. Of course, this is only true as long as the viewer knows that he/she's looking at and how to properly compare the images. You see, people can post-process the RAW in many different ways to come up with different interpretations of the RAW file. The RAW is the only constant, therefore can be the only true marker of sensor performance. What is also a HUGE variable is how the JPEG was processed (i.e. what software was used or was it processed in-camera). The other thing that bothers me about the DPReview comparator is the fact that those are not JPEGs straight from the cameras; they are from Adobe Camera Raw and we have no idea what settings were used. There are several different applications, plug-ins and programs that can process RAW files into JPEGs and each one of them will give a totally different results.
Posted 1 year ago # -
adamz said:
@donald - for me it only means that the price of d3s will stay steady, why to overpay for d4 if You ain't getting much more (in terms of photography of course), good news for me as I still can use my d3s and don't bother myself with selling it this yearYep that's what I think too. Having said that does anyone think I would make a "fast buck" by ordering a D4 on my credit card under the NPS scheme, and selling it before I have to pay the bill? Is that dishonest or against NPS rules?
Posted 1 year ago # -
IMO - neither dishonest or against NPS rules. NPS gives you access, doesn't force you to keep it. It is a risk though. You have to sell it for substantially more (such as on e-bay) to people who won't wait a few months for the normal price. And once you have one in your hands how can you avoid trying it out and when you do you may become emotionally attached more than you think. So you really may be keeping it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
donaldejose said:
IMO - neither dishonest or against NPS rules. NPS gives you access, doesn't force you to keep it. It is a risk though. You have to sell it for substantially more (such as on e-bay) to people who won't wait a few months for the normal price. And once you have one in your hands how can you avoid trying it out and when you do you may become emotionally attached more than you think. So you really may be keeping it.Of course, some of us still have to take day jobs in order to pay our bills so we cannot claim to make 100% of our income via photography... ie, NPS will not let us in
Frustrating when we then do a worse job on the gigs we are taking over the next 3 months because we cannot get a D4...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Some nice low light samples taken with the D4, looks very good to me.
http://www.popphoto.com/gallery/nikon-d4-low-light-high-iso-sample-images-gallery
Posted 1 year ago # -
To my eyes, the D4 is at least 1 stop better than the EOS-1D Mark IV which I find to be the big looser compared with the D3s and D4 in term of sharpness, ISO and colors. It’s going to be interesting to see how the EOS-1D X compares.
The D4 sample seem to be greener, perhaps a bad WB. I find the D4 noisier than the D3s even at ISO 100 (e.g. when looking RAW at the watch and the grey thing to the left) but perhaps it is just picking finer details. Their samples seem to have a lot more dust on the D4 shots (martini bottle near the top label left side at the brush level), I hope it is not an artefact of the D4. The D4 image is slightly smaller and taken at a lower height, which makes some of the letters on the paper at the bottom to look more blurred and less contrasty. D4 is definitely sharper (copyright sign top left corner).
The D3s shot is awfully soft in some parts, perhaps slightly out-of focus (left lower corner of the playing card) even when compared to the D7000 or even the Coolpix P7100 while other part is definitely sharper (left low corner batteries) suggesting a shallower DEF for the D3s.
Funny that they have the D7000 but not the D700.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Here is an early opinion of the D4 from dpreview:
"Ultimately though, from first impressions, the D4 appears to all but match the D3S at a pixel level while offering more pixels, and it's hard not to be impressed by that."
ISO 12800 JPeg http://3.s.img-dpreview.com/files/articles/6015410449/D4-ISO12800.jpg?v=1381
ISO 12800 Raw http://2.s.img-dpreview.com/files/articles/6015410449/D4-ISO12800-ACR.jpg?v=1381
Seems like the D3s offers no IQ at high ISO advantage over the D4.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I could not tell if this link was up anywhere but for those of us who drool over the instruction books, reading late into the night...
http://www.nikondigitutor.com/eng/d4/index.html
This is the nice fellow going through all the features of the Nikon D4.... in a manner even I can understand
Posted 1 year ago # -
Nice find msmoto.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Pierre said:
Nice find msmoto.You are welcome... is it almost time to start holding my breath? Wednesday is the day scheduled for initial shipping. Unless there is a delay due to "proprietary business practices" the NPS members who do not have the D4 already will begin to get their edition. And, based on the initial reports, NIKON has done it again.... Strange, how exciting the D2 was, chuckle.... or even the D90 from the D70s...
Here is a link which has about everything the manual will have, including the file sizes for the various recording modes.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So msmoto, I am reading that you're going for the D4, what made your mind for it over the D800?
My head wants a D4, my heart a D800 and my pocket to keep my D700. I am trying to find arguments for the D4, cause he's not winning.Posted 1 year ago # -
Pierre said:
So msmoto, I am reading that you're going for the D4, what made your mind for it over the D800?
My head wants a D4, my heart a D800 and my pocket to keep my D700. I am trying to find arguments for the D4, cause he's not winning.Well, my story needs to be told a bit more. In the 60's and early 70's I shot with an F body along with some exotic stuff like Hasselblad and Sinar. Then I went to school and did something else, retired in 2002, re-entered photography about the same time with some N bodies, then a D70, I think. Now with a D200, D90. I have wanted a D700, and a D2, D3 previously, but had not made the commitment to do the amount of photography to justify.
Now at nearly 70 years old, I have decided to go to FX. If one looks at my profile and sees my website, a lot of the venues are related cars, motorcycles and photography of these. I also like night, available light work.
So, the D800 which I suspect will be a phenomenal studio camera, is not the best for high FPS and the file sizes are way to big. Plus the ISO rating of the D4 allows some ease when shooting available light. And actually, I think when used at ISO 6400 for example, the dynamic range and ability to pull one out of the bag (my term for making a silk purse out of a sow's ear) will be better on the D4.
I do not really like the "stick on" bottom grips and prefer a solid piece of camera in my hand. (Maybe the D4x will be 36Mp)
And that is it. I suppose one must consider the cost, but this becomes less important as one becomes chronologically more mature. And one of my son's in Texas is pretty good at his non-pro photo stuff and will want the goodies when I am finished.
And the Digitutor I posted above is really nice for going over a lot of the camera daily use features..
Posted 1 year ago # -
Me I don't shoot things that move fast, I am often on tripod and I rarely find needing higher than ISO 800. The thing that attracts me with the D4 is night photography. I like very sharp and crisp images and so far, I haven't seen any one produced with the D4 contrary to the D800. Perhaps people are too caught-up with the demonstration of high ISO and have neglected photo quality. Even with the Nikon samples, I find the D4 really D700ish and kind of soft.
If only there were full-res good sample of the D4.
The D800 ISO performance is still a bit of a mystery so my mind is not completely set.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Pierre said:
Me I don't shoot things that move fast, I am often on tripod and I rarely find needing higher than ISO 800. The thing that attracts me with the D4 is night photography. I like very sharp and crisp images and so far, I haven't seen any one produced with the D4 contrary to the D800. Perhaps people are too caught-up with the demonstration of high ISO and have neglected photo quality. Even with the Nikon samples, I find the D4 really D700ish and kind of soft.If only there were full-res good sample of the D4.
The D800 ISO performance is still a bit of a mystery so my mind is not completely set.
I think in viewing your beautiful shots on PAD, it is clear we do shoot different subjects. I do a lot of people, on the move, dark, impossible lighting, so the high ISO is critical. And the high FPS on the D4 is the deal maker. For tripod work, I would almost think the D800 would be better as the more pixels the better the color, in a general way.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Surely, the D4 will be the best camera for professional sports photographers who shoot moving people or moving vehicles almost every day. But for amateurs who simply don't shoot enough to justify spending $6,000 on a body there may be other options. Both the D400 and the D7100 are likely to be out this year. The D7000 was lauded for its clean high ISO ability. Hopefully, the D7100 will offer about a one stop improvement. We don't know anything about the D400 yet. Hopefully, clean high ISO will be one of Nikon's goals for that camera. Those who shoot fast moving objects only occasionally may be able to get a body with clean high ISO for about one third the price of a D4.
Posted 1 year ago # -
It should be shipped tomorrow, but if not, I guess I am not the Prima donna I thought I was.....
Posted 1 year ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
