The Sony NEX 7 has finally been announced and it's a lot more expensive then I was expecting ($1400 with a lens). However for that price you get the same 24 mp sensor and OLED EVF found on the new a77 as well as 1080p60 Hd video. All that in a much smaller package then the a77. I think the Nikon EVIL mirrorless camera (supposedly code named X810) will be dead in the water unless it has some kind of miraculous new feature.
Sony NEX7 Versus Nikon 'X810' (NEX 7 Discussions)
(31 posts) (12 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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Yup, the Nikon ILC is dead in the water at birth. The Sensor is too small to compete with the likes of Sony, or even Olympus and Panasonic for that matter. Nikon is too worried about hurting traditional DSLR sales to do anything innovative, which is sad.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I find the Nex7 to be pretty interesting, and it's the first of their line that I would consider, since they refined the controls so it now has more than 3 buttons, and added the viewfinder, which (from the specs at least) sounds pretty good. The next step is to fill out their lens lineup to actually be able to use the 24MP that they have (hopefully with some faster and wider primes). I'd like to think that they will add build-in stabilization in the future, but somehow I doubt it.
As far as the rumored Nikon mirrorless goes, I think Nikon really has a lot of catching up to do. Part of the advantage of using a smaller sensor is the ability to make small lenses, but the m4/3 options are already starting to get small enough that I don't know if I'd want a smaller camera. Of course, Nikon can always compete a little better on price, but at the risk of cheapening the brand name.
What I'm concerned about is the market that Nikon is trying to capture. With such a small sensor, it's probably not experienced photographers, and the price point seems to indicate that they want to market it as a more advanced compact camera, but cheaper than the other mirrorless options. The issue with that, is that you are really starting to get stuck in between too many options. Smartphone cameras are really starting to eat away at the low end of the compact market, and the top end is at risk by cheaper m4/3 cameras, as happens with economies of scale. To succeed, Nikon somehow needs something to differentiate their products from others, rather than to just create another me-too mirrorless product.
Personally, what I think Nikon needs to do to succeed is to (aside from using a larger sensor) work on creating a specialized lens line-up. What can we expect at launch? Out of the 4 lenses, my guess is a set of slow zooms: 28-80, 28-200 and 70-300 equivalents, and a "fast" normal prime: 50/2 equivalent probably. To take this lineup more seriously, we will probably need compact lenses with very fast apertures (the small sensor helps keeps things compact); probably f/2.8 or faster wide, normal and long zooms, and a set of 1.4 or faster primes: 20,35,50,85,135 equivalents. I wouldn't even consider the lineup until we have a decent and fast ultrawide prime/zoom (12-18 FF equivalent), one of the main reasons why I don't own any of the mirrorless systems out yet. Nobody else has any of this yet, so doing this quickly would signal that Nikon is talking the line seriously, not just as another consumer toy.
Posted 1 year ago # -
NikoDoby said:
I think the Nikon EVIL mirrorless camera (supposedly code named X810) will be dead in the water unless it has some kind of miraculous new feature.Agreed, or the price has to be lower... MUCH lower...
So what would constitute "miraculous" for you?
I presume not more scene or effects modes....
Posted 1 year ago # -
How about a miraculously quick auto focus comparable to a DSLR? And miraculously inexpensive lenses for under $200. Of course image quality must certainly be miraculous. Oh and it has to come in a bunch of different colors. One of which must be named miraculous white.
If my demands are not met, then I am not interested.
Posted 1 year ago # -
as a current NEX5 owner my only wish is to have more lenses, regardless of price. the 16mm pancake sucks big times when used wide open, need to stop it down at least to f4-f5.6 to get decent results. another thing is the price drop. last year I bought the new 5 for app 900USD, today I'll be lucky if someone will buy it from me for 400usd - that's a way to high price drop.
as for nex7 I'm waiting to see how it will perform with the new zeiss 24/1.8 lens, as anything else from E mount will not be able to deliver to 24mpx sensor.
as for using nex cameras, if light is good the performance is really amazing - true dslr experience in case of IQ. handling is manageable, don't know why people throw so many thing on it, as You can really fast change all the necessary settings like iso, aperture, shooting mode.
Posted 1 year ago # -
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TaoTeJared said:
Anyone know how Leica glass fair on the Sony bodies?From everything I've heard, it fares extremely well. Whether or not a FF lens can really give you 24MP on a crop frame (equivalent to more than 50+ on a FF!) might be a little iffy, but if anyone can do it, it will be Leica.
Posted 1 year ago # -
NikoDoby said:
How about a miraculously quick auto focus comparable to a DSLR? And miraculously inexpensive lenses for under $200. Of course image quality must certainly be miraculous. Oh and it has to come in a bunch of different colors. One of which must be named miraculous white.If my demands are not met, then I am not interested.
LOL! I see you are getting more picky as time goes on?
I think you missed out on the miraculous department with one more demand (sorry, request)... That is they have to be miraculously out resolving every else Nikon has ever made... ;-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Can the NEX 7 really be considered a pro model? For the price I think it's a better deal than the X100 or X1 but will it's lack of weather sealing make it less desirable in professional circles? Maybe that's something Nikon can exploit on their camera. An AW100 with a removable lens.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Honestly, the NEX-7 is the camera that Nikon should have produced. If the EVIL Nikon in fact has the smaller sensor and lack of dial controls, then for sure I will buy the NEX-7.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but Nikon's marketing really seems to have abandoned the people who had a very strong product loyalty. I don't know how much and how long the damage to their loyal customer base is / will last.
I for one am totally discouraged and I really wish I didn't have so much legacy glass.
At this point I have little good feelings left for Nikon.OK fan boys, tell me to use the equipment I have and make great pictures, I don't need more pixels and that I am a troll. I am ready, but the fact is for new advanced amateur buyers, there is very little reason to choose Nikon these days.
Posted 1 year ago # -
guys, as much as I loved the idea of NEX-7, right now after the heat droped a little bit, and I saw the price tag I think it's... not worth it. I don't know what Sony was thinking when they set the price so high, comparing to nex-5c. sure there's a different sensor in it, and EVF, but You can get the EVF for nex-5c and as I wrote before, there's no Sony glass right now on the market to deliver this 24mpx.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Well, I'm not sure where to put this but I just got confirmation my NEX-5N shipped today. I ordered from the sony store. I don't know why people knock the interface of the nex-5. Is it because they haven't used it? I keep hearing three buttons but there are really 9 buttons and a scroll wheel and I've never felt limited as far as control goes.
I upgraded for the 60p frame rate and the manual video controls. I'm interested to see how the touch screen focus tracking works in video. That will just be gravy if it works.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I think Sony has the upper hand in this category with Samsung close behind.
Is it only me or does anyone else think comparing or maybe better put, pushing all of these ILC/mirror-less cameras into the same pot (category) is doing all of them ill-justice. They are directed to the same group of people but are very different IQ with different sensor sizes. How many sensor sizes are there now? So far we have a hodgepodge of sizes ranging from x-factors of 4.7, 2.7, 4/3rds, DX, etc. Then you have Ricoh who has a different sensor for each lens.
As much as DxO and other testers want to split hairs with scoring cameras and saying which one is better - Almost every camera can make great images up to ISO 400. Beyond that, comes the "give and takes" that separates theses cameras into user groupings that creates all the discussions of IQ, available lenses, video, features, manual controls, flash capability, ergonomics and many others.
I just see three groupings these camera's fall in based on sensor size; Mini ILC (Sub 4/3rds), 4/3rds, and DX.
I see the issue surrounding these are that they are marketed to try to be something for everyone. Look at Fuji. Fujifilm found out by surprise that you can have a focused system directed to a small segment and it can be wildly successful to the point it has spawned a second camera. If any of these camera makers took their ILCs and "purposed" their cameras towards specific markets I think they all could hit home runs. Market the Parent with small kids or in sports or the street shooter waning exotics like a cheap Tilt shift, fisheye, 1.0 lens. A camera only with a couple of primes, one with mega zooms, one directed more for video, one for 50+ adults. College art students, small town journalists, companies for documented events. Pick a group on similar needs and focus like a laser beam. If your system is consistency focused you gain loyalty. The current shotgun approach seems that it has failed to even hit a broad side of a barn with the approach these current companies are taking.
Am I just smoking crack tonight, or am I touching on something here?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Nothing...from no one? I guess I was smoking crack after all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TaoTeJared, you make some really good points, especially regarding targeted vertical marketed cameras. A great idea, but one I feel most Japanese companies could not execute very well. IMHO, the Japanese really are not innovators, however they keep polishing, and refining the same features over and over again. They stuff their cameras with so many features hoping to achieve the one size fits all. Part of that is they probably develop cameras knowing their home market, and try to make them fit abroad. Since Japanese camera manufacturers have little competition abroad, it works in spite of themselves.
Here in the U.S., we see all these EVIL cameras as one since they were developed with that one size fits all thought. U.S. customers however prefer products taylored to their needs.
I think you hit something, but it is the same something Japanese companies have ignored for years. As an audiophile, I have shied away from Japanese audio. Just deliver great sound, not 25,000 useless features I'll never use. How many features on your camera do you frequently use after-all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
+1, pabnj. TTJ, those are great ideas. You have to think they're just afraid someone will read through the specs list and decide against buying it because it can't do X whizbangs. It will be fun to see what happens with the mirrorless market, but I think if sony can improve their lens offerings their decision to go APS on the emount will turn out to be a winner (specifically, I'm hoping the rumored pro-level normal zoom in 2012 doesn't disappoint). I still can't understand why 17mm diagonal would be a good choice for Nikon. I guess the nex are the least pocketable...
By the way, I forgot to mention I want the 24p video, too. I never found the 60i of the nex-5 offensive because it's actually "interlaced" 30p so there isn't any interlace comb or anything, but I just think it will be fun to shoot native 24p and then have clips that can be slowed by a factor of 2.5 and have 24p slow motion.
Posted 1 year ago # -
IMHO, we shouldn't distinguish between mirror and mirror less as sooner than later we will see the mirror less construction in dslr's. As for the quality of pictures, as TTJ wrote, up to 400iso IQ is almost indistinguishable. Two weeks ago I was shooting my wife's friend wedding, I took my NEX-5, and... after PP I don't see too much differences between pictures taken with d3s and NEX.
Posted 1 year ago # -
X whizbangs - I think I just found my favorite phrase for the next week.
I agree with Adamz - I don't like the "mirror-less" tag for models. I really can't stand calling them ILCs (interchangeable lens compacts) either but that is closer to what they should be called. The Sony and Samsung performance (and sensor size) are middle to top DSLR territory and I have a hard time comparing them in the same category as the Pentax or Nikon design. I have a feeling we will have this conundrum for the next couple of years until some of these shake out.
Until then, I'm just going to put DSLRs with mirrors in a category called "Flap-Jacks" and Mirror-less in a category called "Bacon".
Posted 1 year ago # -
I think the Nikon's dead in the water, as well. pabnj, apt comparison on audiophile equipment. I read somewhere recently -- may have been Thom Hogan's blog -- something very similar, that especially in the P&S/compact category, companies keep pumping out new iterations with very minor changes (and really, do we need more scene modes?) in order to keep product moving. Of course, they may be on to something: look at all the whining that happens when someone doesn't put a 36MP full frame sensor in a D7000-sized body at a D3100 price. ;)
TTJ: You're definitely onto, and not on, something. The problem with anything -- whether it's a camera, a television, or even a stock pot -- that tries to be everybody's everything is that you're doomed to failure before you've even started. When you start thinking along those lines, you have to look at averages (what's the average person going to want/need, and what will they be willing to pay for it) and you end up with a product that's... well, average as a result, if it even manages to be that good. What's encouraging about the Fuji X series (at least to me; maybe I'm misinterpreting what they're trying to do) is that it seems to be thought out more like an SLR line than a point-and-shoot line, with clearly defined products that are meant for something, and/or someone, specific, as opposed to someone buying a Coolpix because they'd budgeted $150, and while they're not sure what all those thingies do, the camera just happened to cost 150 bucks.
JA, adamz: I like the image quality of the NEX cameras, but they feel awkward in my hands. Maybe that's just me...
Posted 1 year ago # -
TaoTeJared said:
Until then, I'm just going to put DSLRs with mirrors in a category called "Flap-Jacks" and Mirror-less in a category called "Bacon".I looove bacon.
adamz said:
...after PP I don't see too much differences between pictures taken with d3s and NEX.Thank you for writing this (even if it isn't really true), Adamz. I need these reminders sometimes.
Fair enough about the handling, ASD. Everyone has their opinion but I love the way the nex-5 feels in your hand for normal shots and for hip-shot video (I have obviously not tried the nex-7 but the nex-3 seemed flimsy and lacking any really good way to hold it).
Posted 1 year ago # -
aslightdelay said:
TTJ: You're definitely onto, and not on, something. The problem with anything -- whether it's a camera, a television, or even a stock pot -- that tries to be everybody's everything is that you're doomed to failure before you've even started. When you start thinking along those lines, you have to look at averages (what's the average person going to want/need, and what will they be willing to pay for it) and you end up with a product that's... well, average as a result, if it even manages to be that good. What's encouraging about the Fuji X series (at least to me; maybe I'm misinterpreting what they're trying to do) is that it seems to be thought out more like an SLR line than a point-and-shoot line, with clearly defined products that are meant for something, and/or someone, specific, as opposed to someone buying a Coolpix because they'd budgeted $150, and while they're not sure what all those thingies do, the camera just happened to cost 150 bucks.
JA, adamz: I like the image quality of the NEX cameras, but they feel awkward in my hands. Maybe that's just me...
What TaoTeJared touched on is what marketing people call vertical marketing. You take a defined group of people, design a product, and market the hell out of it within that group. It proves to highly profitable as people are willing to pay more for a product they feel was designed just for them, and, more importantly builds strong loyalty. To everyone else, that product maybe average, but to its audience it would be the best camera on the planet.
The Japanese understand marketing to the masses, not to a defined group. That's probably the reason Canon chose not to buy Hasselblad. They just did not understand how to make money selling cameras to such a small market.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Everyone needs to get off the Japanese - geesh. They are certainly not a one dimensional society. Fujifilm is Japanese and they have always made cameras that are made for focused groups. Probably why they have always had success. Look at all of the MF rangefinder lines they have had. Pentax comes and goes with those as well.
Vertical marketing was exactly what I was thinking of just left the term out. I think anymore that is what works in the world today.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Please don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the Japanese. They are a very successful society and make great products. However as a whole, with few exceptions Fuji being one, they are not known to target specific markets rather make products for mass appeal. In-itself not a bad thing.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I've been playing around with my new NEX-5N and it's a fun little camera. I already loved the nex-5, so the main additions are the better sensor, video, and improvements to the interface now it has a touch screen (touch the screen to focus on any part of the image even while recording video? genius. I've been waiting for this feature. Also, on image review, you tap to zoom in on any part of the picture. Also genius. I keep trying to use multitouch commands a la ipad, though!). The only really negative part to the upgrade is that I'll have to wait for lightroom support of the raw files. :-(
Here are a couple of sample videos from it. The first is at their new PS quality setting (60p 1080, 28 Mbps) and the other is at 24p 1080, 24 Mbps.
Posted 1 year ago #
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