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(Nikon V1 and J1- Mirrorless Camera Discussion)

(218 posts) (47 voices)
  • Started 1 year ago by sevencrossing
  • Latest reply from msmoto
  • Related Topics:
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    3. Nikon Concept Camera = EVIL At Photokina
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    5. Nikon 1 Cameras Not in Forum List

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  1. TaoTeJared

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    Guys, guys, guys you are mashing carrots and peas and calling it mashed potatoes.

    Mechanical shutter - "old style" what we all have in our DSLRs. Simply it is a mechanical device. At one time it was just springs controlling it, then it went to electric circuitry. Marketing departments created buzz and confounded a simple thing into something more than it was for an end use.

    Electronic shutter in the J1 and most compact cameras, is essentially the sensor being turned on and off to replicate the shutter and capture the image. This can be done extremely fast but at that speed, it can come with some trade-offs.

    The J1/V1 does not have the shutter inside the lens.

    bernard said:
    I'm still puzzled about the results if I used a V1 for taking pictures of aircraft with a rotating propellers, since I need a sharp airplane and a blurred propeller.

    I think you are referring to the result of a Rolling Shutter. Iphone does this. In essence it is like a flatbed scanner where the image is taken line by line. J1/V1 photographs are not taken in this fashion - the whole sensor area is turned on. I'm not sure about video though.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. DutchNikon

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    >>I still fear Nikon isn't going to be competitive on image quality with a sensor this small. If they had gone with DX (or FX!) in their mirrorless design I think it would have been better for them. If they had done e-mount to team with Sony to compete with m4/3 I'd be in heaven right now <<

    Larger sensor = larger lenses, it had to be small....

    >> the D40 is a weird beast in that respect. I never quite understood what was going on with it, but I think it is electronically shuttered at some shutter speeds.<<

    Electronic shutters are easier on the mechanics at higher speeds, and : allow flash sync at any speed, where a D300s for instance allows a max speed of 1/320 flash sync 9only with an external flash) , a D40 allows sync speeds at fastest shutter speeds which can be very intresting for some special types of Photography...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. bernard

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    Ha ! Thanks TaoTeJared ! I'm starting to see some light (If I may say… :)

    I see what you mean about the electronic shutter (Rolling shutter of the Iphone) and the horrible result it gives on a rotating propeller, with blades curved over several dozens of degrees depending on the propeller speed. The ones I took a photo of with my phone were bent 90° ! Yuck ! So if the shutter of the V1 is of the on/off type, I'm breathing again.

    Now, that doesn't say what type is the mechanical shutter in the V1. It's not of the curtain type for sure, so I guess it is indeed in every lens and controlled from the camera's brains. It's from 30s to 1/4000s as per dpreview data:
    Shuttter speed
    Mechanical Shutter
    • 1/4000 sec. –30 sec.
    • Bulb
    Electronic Shutter
    • 1/16000 sec. –30 sec.
    • Bulb
    It must work the same way as a diaphragm going from fully shut to fully open and back to fully shut.

    That, by the way, would explain why not every Nikon lens will work on the V1, even with the adaptor.

    The final question is: How does one select the mechanical shutter or the electronic one ?…

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. iris chrome

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    @bernard

    The V1 has both electronic and mechanical shutters while the J1 only has an electronic shutter. Since V1/J1 use the same lenses you can deduce that the mechanical shutter of V1 is in-camera. What that salesman was probably referring to was the aperture within the lens.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. TaoTeJared

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    +1

    There is not a shutter in the lens. If there was, it would be called a "leaf shutter" and the lenses would be $800+ for each lens and much larger. The J1/V1 Lenses DO NOT have shutters in them.

    bernard - I think you are still missing what the shutters are.

    Mechanical = curtain shutter

    Electronic is like a light bulb - The sensor is rapidly turned on and off. It eliminates the need for a curtain type of shutter.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. kyoshinikon

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    +2

    Take the lens off a Leica you see a piece of fabric (shutter curtain), Take it off a J1 and the sensor is right there (no shutter to cover it).

    It is rare to find even a 35mm camera lens with a leaf shutter (they do exist)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. bernard

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    Thanks to you all ! :o)

    I managed to download the V1 manual (In French though) which says the mechanical shutter is a focal plane type shutter.

    Now I understand ! :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. iris chrome

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    Ok, well I can't find anything anywhere that would decidedly confirm wether the electronic shutter of N1 is global or rolling shutter but everything seems to point that it's actually using a rolling shutter. An extremely fast rolling shutter. Also here is one little piece of specs directly from Nikon USA's website that supports my theory:

    Nikon 1 V1 Specs Page:
    Flash Sync Speed
    Electronic shutter: 1/60 sec.
    Mechanical shutter: 1/250 sec.

    That and the fact that V1 even uses a mechanical shutter.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. jonnyapple

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    DutchNikon said:
    >>I still fear Nikon isn't going to be competitive on image quality with a sensor this small. If they had gone with DX (or FX!) in their mirrorless design I think it would have been better for them. If they had done e-mount to team with Sony to compete with m4/3 I'd be in heaven right now <<

    Larger sensor = larger lenses, it had to be small....

    Lens size doesn't necessarily scale with sensor size, Dutch. What about the Nikon S and the lenses for it?
    Here's one example to illustrate (sorry the field of view isn't exactly the same—I think it still makes the point):
    Leica 35mm f/2.5 that covers FX image circle: 31mm length
    Nikon 10mm f/2.8 that covers Nikon 1 image circle: 22mm length.

    Years ago Nikon released a 40mm f/2.8 GN that is 31mm long that is also full frame. I think it's easy to forget that the reason SLR lenses are so huge is that a lot of them have to incorporate retrofocus designs to keep the rear elements from invading the space of the mirror in the SLR. Mirrorless removes that requirement and lenses that cover even the FX image circle can be made quite small. I'm excluding telephoto lenses, which are necessarily big but not because you need retrofocus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Mike Gunter

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    Hi,

    "Ok, well I can't find anything anywhere that would decidedly confirm wether the electronic shutter of N1 is global or rolling shutter but everything seems to point that it's actually using a rolling shutter."

    They are a CMOS chip, so I would assume that they would still have to have a rolling shutter. I don't think that would change.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. iris chrome

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    @Mike

    Yeah you're right but the technology for global shutter CMOS sensor does actually exist just not in any consumer camera yet (that I know of):

    http://www.teledynedalsa.com/mv/products/cameras/family.aspx?fam=genie%20ts

    That's why the discussion about the phone camera with the propeller and the rolling shutter effect got me thinking that Nikon 1 might actually have a global shutter but I guess that's too good to be true.

    @jonnyapple

    (NOTE TO ALL: Ok I apologize in advance but this is going to be another one of my long posts and, even worse, it will be filled with boring tedious calculations so ye be warned :-).

    I see your point but I think that comparing Nikon 1 lenses to Nikon S or Leica lenses really is unfair. As far as length, the 10mm is only 2.2 cm while the Leica 35mm is 3.4 cm. As for diameter, Nikons S and Leica smaller because they're all manual lenses with no AF mechanism (STM in Nikon 1 case), electronic aperture control or VR. Unfortunately there is a price to pay for all of this in terms of size.

    A more meaningful comparison would have been to compare the size of the front elements of the Leica lens vs. the Nikon 1 lens. If you take a look at a Nikon 1 lens, you'll notice that the front lens element occupies a very small amount of the front face of the lens compared to a Nikon S or Leica lens where the front element dominates the front part of the lens. If you adjust for these factors, the 10mm would be just 2.5 cm in diameter. That's just about an inch.

    Here are some calculations to demonstrate. Unfortunately I couldn't find the size of the front elements of the lenses anywhere so I had to do the calculations the long way. Jonny, I know you're a physicist so you'll probably appreciate this. For all others who are not comfortable with numbers, I'll try my best to be as clear as possible. Now these calculations are not completely accurate but I think they're sufficient to demonstrate my point.

    The first step is to calculate the ratio of diameter of the front lens element to diameter of the full lens of a Nikon S or Leica lens. This can be done even if you don't have a Nikon S or Leica lens laying around by using any front facing photo of those lenses. I couldn't find any acceptable photo for the Leica 35mm f/2.5 so I used a Nikon S 5cm f/1.4. You can get an image
    here:

    http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/rangefinder/images/5cm-f14/D3S_8176-950.jpg

    Now I know that the Nikon 1 10mm and Nikon S 5cm are not equivalent lenses but I think that the wider aperture of the 5cm will be canceled out by the wider focal length of the 10mm so it sill works out (like I said in the beginning, these are crude calculations).

    Now, with a ruler, measure the diameter of the whole lens across the middle directly from the image in the link. Then measure the diamater of the front lens element only. Divide diameter of lens element by diameter of lens to get the ratio. Here are my numbers in cm (everybody's measurements will be different but the percentages will still be the same more or less):

    7.25/9.5 = 0.7632 (or ≈ 76%)

    Ok now take a front facing image of the Nikon 1 10mm and do the same. Here is an image:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/59778785@N02/6310745373/in/photostreamone

    and here is the calculation:

    2.25/6.5 = 0.3562 (or ≈ 35%)

    At this point it's pretty clear how much of the bulk of the lens is due to the outer layer of the lens and not the lens' elements themselves. So now we need to find what size the 10mm lens would be if the lens element, while remaining at the same size, did occupy 76% of the lens instead of just 35%. In other words, what size would the 10mm lens have been if it had the same proportions as the Nikon S 5cm lens. To do this, the lens element diameter should be held constant while the lens diamater is variable and ratio is set to 0.7632:

    2.25/x = 0.7632

    or

    2.25/0.7632 = x = 2.948 (for the diameter of the lens)

    This is the size of the downsized 10mm lens (but remember this number still doesn't mean anything since it's obtained from an image and not real life). Now to compare this with the measured diameter of the 10mm lens and obtain the ratio of downsized lens to the actual size of the lens:

    2.948/6.5 =0.4536 (or ≈ 45%)

    From the specs of the 10mm on Nikon USA's website, the actual diamater of the 10mm lens is 55.5 mm or 5.55 cm. Now we can calculate what the actual (real life) size of the 10mm lens would have been if it had the same proportions as the 5cm lens. This is done by multiplying the last ratio obtained by 5.55 cm:

    5.55 cm x 0.4536 ≈ 2.5 cm or 1 inch (1 inch = 2.54 cm)

    This is the size the 10mm would probably have been if it did not have all the bells and whistles it's got now (no VR, no STM, no AF and no electronic aperture control) but the Nikon 1 is not a Leica or a Nikon S nor was it ever supposed to be.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. TaoTeJared

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    iris chrome said:
    (NOTE TO ALL: Ok I apologize in advance but this is going to be another one of my long posts and, even worse, it will be filled with boring tedious calculations so ye be warned :-).

    So why did you post it? ;)-

    Interesting post even if it had noting to do with the discussion.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. bernard

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    Thanks Iris chrome !

    The V1 manual can be found there: http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/noprint/1V1RM_ENnoprint.pdf

    It doesn't specify the type of electronic shutter, but it does say, on page 122, how to select the type of shutter: Mechanical, Electronic, or Electronic Hi.
    In the case of aircraft propellers, I would stick with the mechanical one since I need the slowest possible speed to get the full disc whenever it's possible (Quite difficult to get depending on the circumstances (Ground to air photography, air to air, on ground, taxying or static, the propeller speed itself, and of course the number of propeller blades). If I do give the V1 a try, I will surely test the effect of the Electronic shutter, rolling or not, on the propeller.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. CaryTheLabelGuy

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    I'm bringing my test copy of the Nikon V1 with an assortment of lenses to an Airshow tomorrow. I will test the electronic shutter on prop blades.

    Side note: I prefer the mechanical shutter unless I need super high burst rates that are only avaialble in the electronic(hi) mode. It's 10fps in mechanical mode and electronic modes; 30fps and 60fps in electronic (hi) mode.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. NSXType-R

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    What is the resolution at 30 and 60 fps?

    Is it a reasonable one or is it something low like 640 X 480?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. CaryTheLabelGuy

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    NSXType-R said:
    What is the resolution at 30 and 60 fps?

    Is it a reasonable one or is it something low like 640 X 480?

    Full res brotha. It will even do .NEF files at 30 and 60fps. I don't think people really realize how fast this camera really is.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Mike Gunter

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    Hi,

    CMOS has to be a rolling shutter, even if a very fast rolling shutter. It is what it is. The sensor is packed with dots that collect across the sensor in line causing the jello effect during video and the blur during movement in stills.

    Red camera technology abates this somewhat with their parallel reading of the content and the speed of how it is read - all of which is beyond me and is their intellectual property.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Nikon has a bag of tricks to ameliorate the CMOS effect, too, with some techniques of their own.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. iris chrome

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    TaoTeJared said:
    Interesting post even if it had noting to do with the discussion.

    But it does :)

    @bernard

    You're right. If you're trying to get a disc appearance of the propellers then you will need to use a slower shutter speed. This can be done even with an electronic rolling shutter if it's set at a low enough speed. The problem with phone cameras though is that they lack manual controls and so shutter speed will be automatically selected for you. However, if you are able to manipulate the way the light enters the camera, then you should be able to shoot with low shutter speed. On the other end, if you shoot with a high enough shutter speed then you should be able to completely freeze the propellers and not have the rolling shutter effect.

    @Mike

    That's true for consumer cameras but Teledyne (they make cameras for inspection of scientific and medical instruments) offers a CMOS camera with true global shutter. I don't know the technicalities of how their sensors work though. The specs are in the link in my previous post.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. bernard

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    @CaryTheLabelGuy : I can't wait to see the results ! Even a verbal report will do since you definitely know what airshow photography is :) Your tests will make me buy the V1 or run away from it.

    @Iris chrome : I see what you mean. It's a fact that when I used my phone I didn't bother to try and beat the electronic shutter and I went back there with my D300. Propellers should always be blurred. Freezing them turn the plane into a stupid glider. Horrible ! :(
    But for jets, the highest possible shutter speed gives good results, especially when they do fly-by's at trans-sonic airspeed.

    Now, CaryTheLabelGuy, how about the VR efficiency on the V1 ? That should help a lot if it works as ggod as the one in the 70-200 2,8VR…

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. CaryTheLabelGuy

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    bernard said:
    @CaryTheLabelGuy : I can't wait to see the results ! Even a verbal report will do since you definitely know what airshow photography is :) Your tests will make me buy the V1 or run away from it.

    @Iris chrome : I see what you mean. It's a fact that when I used my phone I didn't bother to try and beat the electronic shutter and I went back there with my D300. Propellers should always be blurred. Freezing them turn the plane into a stupid glider. Horrible ! :(
    But for jets, the highest possible shutter speed gives good results, especially when they do fly-by's at trans-sonic airspeed.

    Now, CaryTheLabelGuy, how about the VR efficiency on the V1 ? That should help a lot if it works as ggod as the one in the 70-200 2,8VR…

    Few things: The rolling shutter effect or "jello" as people call it is virtually non-existant in the V1 video modes. Honestly, it's the smoothest implementation of CMOS video I've ever seen. At really fast shutter speeds (well over 1/250th sec), there is a slight amount of rolling shutter, but you have to look really really hard to see it and basically have to do really hard and really abrubpt pans to even bring it out. Nobody on their right minds would shoot like that for any type of serious video. At 1/50th sec shutter speed, it's damn-near near perfect.

    @ 30fps and 1/50th sec shutter speed, the V1 is very cinimatic and for some reason feels like 24p, it's really strange, honestly. I was dissapointed about the exclusion of 24p, but 30p is really good on the V1. I still would of preffered a 24p option.

    P.s. I really hope Nikon doesn't translate all the bitching for faster frame-rates as us trying to say that we don't want 24p. Nikon 24p is stunning, please Nikon - don't exclude it from future cameras!

    P.s.s. The VR in the 10-30mm and 10-100mm PD-Zoom is actually really really good. There is a lot of latitude in the system and it's rock solid. It's much better than what I was expecting. It outperforms the VR in a lot of my lenses, not sure I would say it out-performs the 70-200 VRII, but it's right up there. I will say this, VR and AF operations are totally silent!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. NSXType-R

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    CaryTheLabelGuy said:
    Full res brotha. It will even do .NEF files at 30 and 60fps. I don't think people really realize how fast this camera really is.

    Makes me wonder- if Nikon can scale this up to a full frame mirrorless, Canon would be in pretty big trouble. It would address all the issues about subject isolation as well. The only thing I'd have a trouble with is the viewfinder.

    Edit- I just looked up the buffer for the V1. It's only a half a second long buffer, about 34 frames. It's still a lot of data though.

    Interesting how Nikon botches the Coolpix line so much- the P7100 doesn't even shoot .NEF.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. iris chrome

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    Here is an interesting read about CMOS sensors and the different types of undesired artifacts they have. The article is mostly about video and they also discuss the differences between CMOS and CCD artifacts but it's also informative if you want to learn more about CMOS.

    http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

    They also link to other CMOS vs CCD articles at the bottom.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. iris chrome

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    Here is yet another article that explains how CMOS sensors work if anybody is interested. It explains why CMOS cameras typically don't have high sync speeds although that doesn't explain why a camera like the V1 with such high electronic shutter speed doesn't. At the end, the author also talks about CMOS sensors with the ability to turn on and off all at once which I believe is what Teledyne has in their industrial cameras.

    http://caspegroup.com/How%20an%20electronic%20shutter%20works%20in%20a%20CMOS%20camera.pdf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. bernard

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    @CaryTheLabelGuy : Many thanks for your comments on the V1. What you say has convinced me that this could be the camera I'm looking for, especially for video. I will try and borrow one and give it a few tests myself, but it surely will do the job with stills and propeller driven planes. :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. CaryTheLabelGuy

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    bernard said:
    @CaryTheLabelGuy : Many thanks for your comments on the V1. What you say has convinced me that this could be the camera I'm looking for, especially for video. I will try and borrow one and give it a few tests myself, but it surely will do the job with stills and propeller driven planes. :)

    Look for my full review coming soon. This should give you a decent idea of what the V1 has to offer and what it doesn't.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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