where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
I didn't expect much from such a small sensor. But after looking at the photos posted on Nikon's and Imaging-resources web sites I have to say that sensor has much higher IQ than I had expected.
My take is that if Nikon can do this will with a CX sensor I expect much of the same technology in the next DX and FX sensors. If that happens, those cameras will be better than I had hoped.
Lesson, save and save hard for the next generation of Nikon DSLR's. You will regret it if your spend your money on these expensive CX sensor cameras when the next gen. DX and FX appear. The D400, D800 and D4 may be more revolutionary than evolutionary.
Mike Gunter said:
Hi BJrichus,I don't agree with him on a lot, there's a lot of puffery on his pages, but he does raise several good points (on several topics - if you can sift, he desperately needs a Max Perkins to his Thomas Wolfe pen).
Looking at the specifications on the mirrorless cameras, there are a few things that are just odd. The motion snapshot thingy will get old quick, and I'm guessing that will be a hopeful source for 'PictureTown' revenue that will likely fall flat. Too many other online outlets to place content.
As the Niko asked, are the cameras are going head to head with cell phones? and if so, isn't that a losing game? Most the younger folks I know are happy with the cell phones for taking pictures. I think Nikon would be better off to partner with AT&T to come up with a interchangeable lens cell phone for reporters or even amateurs to give a damn.
My best,
Mike
Mike,
Puffery to one side, the issues of what is going on at Nikon is an interesting one.
Out of interest, I don't think Picturetown is a viable long term project for them in the USA marketplace, as it is. What is the compelling reason to use it...
I have an HTC phone, with an 8MP camera. One picture I took with it actually got praised from a teacher of mine from my art school days of 40 years ago! Your suggestion of what amounts to a cell phone on steroids sounds like it has some merit. My wife has a 6MP P&S camera and an iPhone. She uses the iPhone for picture taking, despite my offering to buy "her" a new NEX or something like it -- LOL. Most of the kids I know do the same and upload to G+ or Facebook. Image quality is not one they worry too much about. If it's 'sharp' and 'colorful', then they are happy; it's the people who read this web site that worry about it and most of us here won't buy these either, as you point out, the specs are rather odd.
Bottom line I think, is that the V/J cameras will not be of much value to most here and reading some commentaries elsewhere it seems like we are not untypical. As I have said before - several times too - "Nothing much to see here, move along now..."
EDIT: I originally intended to leave this post "as-is", but I'm going to re-word that last sentence; There is something to see, it's just below the level at which most of us here will be interested...
HotDuckZ posted a link to a video of the new camera doing a zoom (nice find by the way there HotDuckZ), I wonder if there are any more "hands-on" videos of these devices in action, out there?
K-R has an outstanding picture on his web site of a pink J1. Truly revolting!
I actually think his review of the system is pretty decent. Good job Ken!
asiaone dot com has yet another take on these new Nikons:
"Nikon targets women with mirrorless cams"
http://digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2011-09/21/nikon1_137.jpg
Teleconverter at work ;-)
bjrichus said:
K-R has an outstanding picture on his web site of a pink J1. Truly revolting!
No joke: I showed that picture to my wife expecting a similar response and she said, "Oh, that's pretty! Can we get one like that?" I laughed thinking she was joking but she wasn't. Sometimes I forget that not everyone is like those of us here on this forum.
I was just wondering but how come the pink J1 is only available in a two lens package? And how come it's $30 more than it's counterparts.
iris chrome said:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&ref_=amb_link_357537322_3&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&docId=1000720831&ie=UTF8&tag=nikorumo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957I was just wondering but how come the pink J1 is only available in a two lens package? And how come it's $30 more than it's counterparts.
Yet your icon is a wide open eye?
Ok... go ahead and call me cynical, this is the profit motive in full flight.
jonnyapple said:
No joke: I showed that picture to my wife expecting a similar response and she said, "Oh, that's pretty! Can we get one like that?" I laughed thinking she was joking but she wasn't. Sometimes I forget that not everyone is like those of us here on this forum.
Yeah... Not everyone's purchasing decisions have image quality at the top of the list.
iris chrome said:
http://digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2011-09/21/nikon1_137.jpgTeleconverter at work ;-)
Sample exchange taken from a Tokyo fashion TV show, aimed at that particular age (13 to 19) when kids want everything and won't really ever get to use anything properly...
Question; do you hold this combination by the lens or the camera body (posed as per 'the big hands' thing)?
Answer 1; Depends on what image you want to present to the hot guy/gal walking next to you.
Answer 2; Depends on the color of the camera body, and does the black lens co-ordinate well (trick answer - black goes with everything).
Answer 3; Depends on how long the lens it... more than 10" and you have to complete 6 months of arm muscle building exercises or it'll droop, all of which is very unfashionable -- and you DID buy this camera to follow fashion, didn't you?
Is there any other reason to buy it?
Oh... you like the color? Well then, just let it hang down around your neck and show it off, don't bother taking pictures with it.
;-)
A joke, but perhaps closer to reality than we think?
More profit for Nikon, which if it leads to better SLR's/lenses and as the stock price has been down ever since September 2008 and is still heading down (see link to Bloomberg on main blog) is obviously a trend they need to reverse.
I've had enough bashing these new craptastic cameras from Nikon. It's all way too easy and is a waste of time as Nikon probably needs them to boost profits so will push them as hard as they can, even if we all laugh at the marketing efforts.
Parting shot to consider on this topic, but if this range fails in the marketplace, I also wonder in a few years time, if we'll be buying "Nikon, by Sony" cameras?
I like the pink V1 and if money was unlimited I would get one just to walk around with something people wouldn't expect to see in order to add something unusual and interesting to their day and give them a chance to wonder "why would guy buy a camera like that?" I am glad Nikon makes it. I just bought a D3100 for my wife and while she loves the photos it takes she complains "it doesn't fit into my purse." That is not something us guys ever consider, is it? Maybe a pink V1 would make her happy.
As much as we pan the V1 and J1 we really should be thankful they exist and we should "talk them up" to other people. Nikon would not be able to exist as a company if it only made the "serious" cameras we like. They either couldn't pay for the research and development out of the profits they make from "our" cameras or Nikon would have to double the price charged for "our" cameras in order to stay in business.
Obviously, we want "our" cameras and we want money spent on research and development to make "our" cameras better and better with each new generation. Now where is Nikon going to get that money? Either from "us" or from "them." Who is the "them?" Obviously, the people who buy the Nikon compact and mirrorless cameras we pan. So it is really important to us that Nikon products which don't appeal to us are sold in very high numbers. The more successful Nikon is with the products which don't appeal to us the more Nikon will be able to have the cash to develop the products which do appeal to us. so "talk up" the new Nikon mirrorless system to the "others" in your life. Emphasize its good points for them instead of complaining about its bad points for you.
donaldejose said:
Obviously, we want "our" cameras and we want money spent on research and development to make "our" cameras better and better with each new generation. Now where is Nikon going to get that money? Either from "us" or from "them." Who is the "them?" Obviously, the people who buy the Nikon compact and mirrorless cameras we pan. So it is really important to us that Nikon products which don't appeal to us are sold in very high numbers. The more successful Nikon is with the products which don't appeal to us the more Nikon will be able to have the cash to develop the products which do appeal to us. so "talk up" the new Nikon mirrorless system to the "others" in your life. Emphasize its good points for them instead of complaining about its bad points for you.
Donaldejose...
As one who has been vocal in saying how much he dislikes the new releases this week from Nikon, I respect your opinion. I don't feel I should talk up something that I feel is frankly a poor product compared to the others in the market place because (please correct me if this is not what you meant) "it comes from Nikon."
The point about profits from it funding R&D for dSLR's has been made by almost everyone. Was THAT the objective of your comment?
I'm not going to grace this thread with any more feature comparisons either as others out there have the time, space and resources to put the point more eloquently than I. Just look at K-R who has done so very well, and a number of other contributors who as they are not simply re-printing press releases, say it like it is.
Ok well I'm in school and I haven't had time to go through all the posts since my last post yet but I gotta say, bjrichus, you are one pessimistic fellow :(
By "talk up" the Nikon mirrorless camera I mean recognize its good points and tell them to those who are the target audience for this camera system. They are the people who now use point and shoot cameras and would like something a bit better. The target audience is not current DSLR shooters. We (current DSLR) shooters tend to belittle the product and talk about all it doesn't do (for us compared to what our DSLRs can do). The impression given is that this is a "bad" product. Don't tell any lies but also give it a bad rep just because it doesn't fit our needs. Nikon will produce products soon to meet our desires.
Another way to say this is that I see a lot of negative comments about this product. Fine, it isn't for "us." But that doesn't mean it is a bad product for "them." When ask your opinion of the new mirrorless cameras be sure to determine whether the questioner is an "us" or a "them" before running down the product. As I mentioned on my post I bought my wife a D3100. She loves the images but complains it doen't fit into her handbag. She is a "them" not an "us." I then bought her a Coolpix. Even though it has a high megapixel count, the images aren't as good as I would like to see. Maybe this mirrorless camera is "just the right size" for her. I won't run it down for her and tell her all the things it cannot do for me. Let her be happy with it. Let Nikon sell a ton of them and use the profits to develop cameras I want. If we run down every Nikon product that is not suited for "us" and "our needs" then Nikon wouldn't have the cash to create the cameras we want.
Hi all,
I hope it is a good camera, I just don't have high hopes that it will be, and I think that Nikon set their aim far too low.
As far as me giving negative press to them, I doubt that I have much sway. It's certain that no one asked my opinion about what they should have made in the first place.
Secondly, if they don't hear, and clearly, what the market thinks about what they make, they will keep making what they make - Coolpixs that aren't anything 'unique' among the P&S, in fact, they seem, to me anyway, to be the most ho hum of the P&S on the market, surviving my the moniker 'Nikon' alone.
That probably accounts for whatever profits they are making, but that can't be the foundation for their company. That's like the proverb of building a house on sand - the rains are bound to come.
As I've said earlier, they don't seem to fill any logical niche. Micro 4/3ds seems a better performance/size match and has the benefit of dozens of lenses and accessories. The Sony NEX family is bigger, but *should* have a higher quality.
Their mirror-less seems to be to unique in that is lesser quality, about the same size (which negates the argument of 'size' as a meaningful marketing gesture), offers some rather bizarre and unasked for features. This may have been ground breaking 5 or 6 years ago, but is way too late to make sense now. It has a flavor of 'me too'.
My best,
Mike
The Nikon 1 seems to be a awfully big venture for Nikon in terms of market and investment. I doubt that this system will attract enough customers to the Nikon line of cameras to have this pay off. Bottom line I think this was a bold move on the part of nikon and may really prove foolish.
iris chrome said:
Ok well I'm in school and I haven't had time to go through all the posts since my last post yet but I gotta say, bjrichus, you are one pessimistic fellow :(
Been taking pictures since well before the days when AP magazine rated the then "new" Ricoh 500RF 35mm compact a best buy (but only along with its wind-up clockwork motor drive). It was the last camera I purchased new, before I got my first Nikon in the late 1970's, from City Camera Exchange when they were actually in the City of London, under Cannon Street rail station. That dates me!
Whatever... I don't think its about being pessimistic, I have seen this kind of thing before and as others with more prestige in the modern photographic world than I are saying (think Ken Rockwell for one)... At best, this is likely to be neutral when it comes to the accounts at Nikon and more likely, it will be a fail. Won't we all be pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong?
where is (was) nikon made...
japan.
where are small mirrorless hugely popular...
japan.
where was nikon's target market...
japan.
where will these sell like hotcakes...
japan.
the main electronic retailers in japan don't carry many Dslrs. the d7000 with kit lens is about the best you will find. on the other hand, they all carry these types of cameras.
in japan, going to joshin, yamada denki, midori etc. and buying the latest gadgets is called weekend entertainment. these will sell like you wont believe, especially after the price drops a bit. they are cheaper, smaller, and more flashy than the competitors.
bingo. i think nikon has targetted a market that they will do EXTREMELY well in. the only what if factor at this point is Canon.
do i want one for serious pics. i am waiting to see the new d800 and d4 like the rest of you.
donaldejose said:
I just bought a D3100 for my wife and while she loves the photos it takes she complains "it doesn't fit into my purse."
Get her a bigger purse.
Really, I see no reason in buying a CX-format camera. The 1 series certainly has a few things to make a grown man drool, like the new AF system. Still, a toy is a toy is a toy. Come next summer, I am sure we will see some very nice professional DSLR bodies from Nikon.
Donald, you bring up a very good point. Thank you, I couldn't have said it better. Concentrating on the negative will only magnify the existing bad traits and minimize the good traits in the product. People really should start to look at things from a different viewpoint than what suits THEIR needs only.
In reality though, the Nikon 1 system really dosen't need much talking up. Yes, there are a few points that all the naysayers keep repeating over and over again but very few are talking about the good stuff (and there is a LOT).
This is sort of unfortunate because even though this website is about everything Nikon, when it comes to anything that's less than a DSLR (sometimes even less than D300), a lot of the visitors here suddenly become anti-Nikon and for not much good reason either.
Anyhow, here is a list of pros and cons of the Nikon 1 system (all specs below can be found either on Nikon's website or dpreview):
PROS:
10.1 MP (we all know it's better than 16)
Dual Expeed 3 processor
EVF (V1)
Smallest and lightest mirrorless camera with built-in EVF
135 AF points (73 phase detect) in single-point AF mode
41 AF points in auto-area AF mode
Nikon claims to be fastest AF system (couldn't find specs to back up)
10 fps stills shooting w/AF tracking
60 fps w/o AF tracking
1/16000 max shutter speed (makes my D7000 cry)
Active D-lighting
Super silent electronic shutter
Smart photo selector feature (take 20 images @ 30 fps and camera will choose best 5)
1-mount lenses are Nikkor branded (same quality as DX/FX lenses)
2.7x crop factor + F to 1 converter = teleconverter for all your f-mount lenses
Stylish minimalist design
Best choice of colors on any camera system so far (except red :p)
Scene auto selector (auto-scene just became more auto)
Manual mode and semi-auto modes (S, P)
Custom WB
Image quality: RAW, JPEG, RAW + JPEG modes
Timelapse mode
Compatible with ML-L3 (V1 front/back, J1 front only)
Vibrating dust reduction (V1)
Optical dust reduction (J1)
3:2 stills aspect ratio
16:9 movie aspect ratio
HD recording up to 20 mins at a time
60 fps @ 1080i
400 fps @ 640 x 424
1200 fps @ 320 x 120
AF during video
HDMI port
400 stills or 120 mins HD @ 1080/60i battery life (V1)
EN-EL15 battery (V1 only - same as D7000)
230 stills of 70 mins HD @ 1080/60i battery life (J1)
CONS:
System bigger than was expected
Sensor smaller than m4/3
DoF most likely not as good as m4/3
Possibly more noise
ISO 100-3200 (Hi 6400)
No control dials
Slow glass (so far)
High price relative to other camera systems
These are about the only cons I can see. All the color argument isn't valid because you can simply opt for the non-flashy black one (and just because some people can't handle pink doesn't make it a bad color). Among the list of expected future lenses are a super telephoto zoom, a pocketable standard zoom, a landscape wide angle zoom and a micro lens. Nikon also plans to release a projector, an underwater housing and video recording kit .
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/21/nikon-1-mirrorless-camera-roadmap.aspx/
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/21/another-nikon-1-recap.aspx/#more-22753
It's also worth noting that there were also other lens patents that were filed some long time ago and that we haven't seen at the launch. Among those lens patents are 18mm f/1.4, 32mm f/1.2, 7-13mm, 40mm f/2.8 macro and 60mm f/3.8 macro.
EDIT: If anyone comes up with any other VALID pros or cons, I will go ahead and add them to the list.
EDIT1: Added EN-EL15 as a pro, rearranged some of the pros on the list, grammatical corrections.
@iris chrome - I would add as a pro for some people (those of us with a D7000 at least) that it uses the EN-EL15 battery. At least that makes it *slightly* more likely for me to eventually get this since I don't need to deal with an extra charger / different batteries while on the road. Now down the road if the D800 or D400 also use that battery, I will be an ecstatically happy puppy. One (admittedly large) bag with three cameras all using the same battery would be so very awesome. I could probably fit a small lens / flash where a couple more chargers would go!
iris chrome said:
http://digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2011-09/21/nikon1_137.jpgTeleconverter at work ;-)
Holy crap, is that a 300 2.8? That looks like a 24-70 on the bottom.
And I thought the D40 looked ridiculous with the 105mm 2.8 on it.
Thom Hogan was saying this would be excellent with a 85mm 1.4 on it. Yeah, I guess it would be, but the ergonomics would be utter crap. No grip on it?
And who cares if it can shoot at 60 fps? If you're using it in the field as a super teleconverter, it won't last anywhere as well as a D3100 can.
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