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(Nikon V1 and J1- Mirrorless Camera Discussion)

(218 posts) (47 voices)
  • Started 1 year ago by sevencrossing
  • Latest reply from msmoto
  • Related Topics:
    1. Sony NEX7 Versus Nikon 'X810' (NEX 7 Discussions)
    2. Save The Reflex Mirror?
    3. Nikon Concept Camera = EVIL At Photokina
    4. Pentax 110 adapter for Nikon 1
    5. Nikon 1 Cameras Not in Forum List

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  1. jerl

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    I have to agree with most of what you guys are saying. From my understanding, most defenders of the small sensor compact have argued that the smaller size results in smaller, lighter, and cheaper cameras. The decrease in size often accompanies an increase in aperture for lenses to partially make up for the difference in sensor size.

    Well let's have a look at what Nikon has come out with: despite having a sensor 70% the area of a m4/3 sensor, it is roughly the same size (a little bit smaller, but not enough to make it fit in someone's pockets or anything) and weight, being comparable to a NEX system even. As far as price goes, well you can see for yourself that it is similar or more expensive than other larger sensor mirrorless cameras. Finally, we all can see the lenses are not really all that small (similar to m4/3 lenses of the same type) and are all slow in aperture, event their pancake.

    In fact, this is actually expected since the impact the sensor has on size and cost are quite small at the m4/3 size and below: smaller sensor cameras tend to be at the same price point, and are generally the same size for ergonomic reasons. Lens apertures too are also difficult to increase while maintaining good optical performance, even if the coverage is decreased- for reference, the olympus f/2 zooms are similar in size and price to 35FF f/2.8 zooms.

    The new mirrorless cameras seem to be targeted to a very low consumer level- this much is evident from the lens selection and the shooting dial itself. I don't necessarily think this is a bad decision on Nikon's part, but it seems they've forgotten how much price is a factor at this level of costumers. With a price point similar to m4/3 and NEX systems, with a smaller set of lenses, and without any tangible benefits, it's hard to see it as being any more than just a novelty.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. bjrichus

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    I just CANNOT get enthusiastic about these "new" cameras.

    Just come away from a conversation here at the office with a Canonista who was puzzled by them himself. He said with a shrug "S100, or Sony NEX or Fuji" and walked away.

    Kind of feel like that myself...

    (which is bad coming from someone who has used Nikon products exclusively since 1977).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. Willis

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    First impression (Before I read you guys thoughts): What a strange camera. Disappointing specs, but it does stuff no other P&S or M 4\3 can do.

    I'm very interested to see how this would stack up against my Cannon G11.

    Clearly its no replacement for my D90, but I think we all knew that before it was launched.

    My gut says I'll continue saving for the STILL yet to be announced D800 and maybe I'll look at gen 2 of this camera.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. kyoshinikon

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    NikoDoby said:
    Nikon is hoping this 1 series system becomes a hit with amateur film makers like the canon 5Dmk2 did for the pro market.

    Well It has a few things going for it like the 5Dmk2. A few dreamy specs and a slew of crappy subpar specs... also Nikon is almost taking Sigmas lead(not that sigma has any say or value in the industry) in overpricing their product (something sony is diligently taking advantage of).

    It would of have been smarter to make it a little more pro friendly as Nature shooters might would buy them like hotcakes to use with their 600mm's

    I like the Red model however. It will match my D3100, Pentaxes, and Wife's lipstick well...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Mike Gunter

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    Hi,

    I don't know how many of you follow 'bythom', but yesterday (Sept 20)he had some interesting things to say about mirrorless entrants - not to pleasant about Nikon, either, basically opting for the smallest size at cost of quality, vice Sony going for the highest quality, but at the cost of inconvenience with the larger lenses. The m4/3s, he suggests might be the 'sweet spot' - his words, not mine, for the consumer.

    Today's posting (Sept 21) shows relative sizes.

    I think it is an interesting read.

    What one has to put into perspective, and I have trouble with it, is how the marketplace will view all this.

    Professionals won't consider the new Nikons for their use unless they are hard pressed for some disposable purpose - hard to imagine, but you know.

    These cameras aren't for high end users: the bokeh won't provide enough options and tonally and bit depth likely won't be pleasing enough to satisfy the user. The cost benefit doesn't seem to warrant investigation.

    Casual users likely have other options at equal or better price points that are proven performers with wider options: M4/3s certainly seem more attractive to me - larger sensor and a much larger population of lenses, adapters, and legacy.

    It's really hard to figure out who will buy the darn things and why. There seems to be more and better choices at every turn.

    It could be that Nikon has an Ace up its sleeve to play, but right now, it seems that Nikon entered a losing game with too little, too late. But I'd be the first to admit that I don't know how the game is played or what the rules are.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. BN7502

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    I would say the only thing that excites me is the ability to get a f/2.8 into an indoor sporting event or something of that nature where a full on DSLR with enough reach would draw too much attention, or not be allowed at all. With the 24-70 and f mount adapter it would be close to the 70-200. Outdoor events and the 28-300 and you're right in it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. iris chrome

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    Ok.... so now that I've had a chance to get some shut-eye and recover from the initial excitement... and shock, I think I'm ready to make my initial analysis of Nikon's latest offering but first to recap; I love it but hate the price, $500 for the J1 and $600 for the V1 was about the most I hoped the camera would be priced at in order for Nikon to lure me in. The lenses are not that small either. Hopefully there will be some type of improvement down the line as far as lens size is concerned (although not holding my breath at this point). With that in mind though, the 1200 fps video feature is almost (I said almost) enough to make me buy it, even though I never shoot video. I'm actually one of those who are repulsed that DSLR's shoot video but @ 1200 fps I can probably stop bullets and catch lighting in a bottle if I wanted to. I wonder if this is the top secret feature that Nikon was referring to. Another noteworthy feature that appeals to the general consumer in me is the motion snapshot, a feature that let's you combine a still image with stop-motion elements.

    Now with all of that in mind. I think Nikon is trying to pull an Apple. It's not quite the same but I've been getting the Apple vibe ever since I've seen the first press picture. The stylish and minimalistic design, the range of hip colors offered (except the red one, it hurts my eyes), the hot features and the lack of solid specs all seem to suggest that Nikon is making their product appeal based on aesthetics rather than performance. If you look at it this way and if Nikon is able to grab the attention of the "hip" consumer. If you look at it this way then it might justify the unusually high price point for the cameras as those "hip" consumers are usually the ones who are willing to and can spend that much on a such a camera. Nikon might just have a killer product on their hands. It's just not for most of us "old fashioned" photographers.

    I'd much rather it be this way than see Nikon loose market share because they're not competing in mirrorless at all. Honestly, I was one of those who where skeptical in m4/3 and thought it would never fly. Apparently I was wrong and Nikon has been taking a beating from it lately. I don't blame Nikon for not entering the game early, I'm just glad they're not entering the game too late.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. bjrichus

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    Adorama have a thought provoking take on the Nikon 1 line of products. I know we are not supposed to post links to commercial sites - and they are a camera store after all, so I won't.

    All I'll say is that it is in alc section...

    "Consumer" and "Soccer Mom" are two phrases that remain in my memory of that article.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. iris chrome

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    @bjrchus, seriously though, who didn't see that the Nikon 1 was not consumer oriented? It was a mile coming.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Nikoner

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    So does Nikon usually have a multiple orgasm and is going to come again some time soon, or is it now firing blanks?

    When's the next press event scheduled? hopefully for FX.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. Mike Gunter

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    Hi all,

    The high frame rate is at low resolution, something that I'm not sure is too much to see, maybe so.

    I don't know what the market is, surely hope that Nikon does. Personally, my opinion of the entire Coolpix line isn't high, and I've owned a couple of them, and they were both, ah, well, gifts to my small grandchildren.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. NikoDoby

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    Joined: May '09
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    Adorama is one of our sponsors.

    http://www.adorama.com/alc/blogarticle/Reflections-on-Nikons-new-mirrorless-world

    The Nikon 1 cameras main competition are smart phones?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. bjrichus

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    iris chrome said:
    @bjrchus, seriously though, who didn't see that the Nikon 1 was not consumer oriented? It was a mile coming.

    Quite so...

    Just making the point because we all seem to be expecting something a little bit more "evolved" than they squirted out (to refer back to the infamous "iamcomings" slogan)...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. bjrichus

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    NikoDoby said:
    Adorama is one of our sponsors.

    http://www.adorama.com/alc/blogarticle/Reflections-on-Nikons-new-mirrorless-world

    The Nikon 1 cameras main competition are smart phones?

    Ah... Of course.

    Thank you NikoDoby.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. bjrichus

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    Mike Gunter said:
    I don't know how many of you follow 'bythom'...

    Mike,

    I don't but now I will spend a while reading it.

    UPDATE: And now I am reminded of why I don't usually read his pages. What he says is true (anger, anger, and more anger), but he misses the target and to some extent offends me by blaming me (a Nikon user) - did I read him right in that?

    Actually there are some good points elsewhere in his writing... That dealers are going to consider the quantity of goods they have to stock a nightmare and that these are really top of the line Coolpix cameras... or perhaps cameras for the 2011 Twitter/Facebook generation, you know, those who want convenience over quality?

    Whatever, the sensor size chart is a nice reminder of what we do when we go down in sensor size... Certainly worth remembering.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Henrik1963

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    I was going to defend this new Nikon CX - Long Zooms will be smaller and lighter right? Take a look....

    Nikon 18 - 200 (27 - 300) 3,5 - 5,6 560 grams 77 x 97 mm.
    Sony E 18 - 200 (27 - 300) 3,5 - 6,3 524 grams 76 x 99 mm.
    Olympus 14 - 150 (28 - 300) 4,0 - 5,6 280 grams 63,5 x 83 mm.
    Nikon 10 - 100 (27 - 270) 4,5 - 5,6 524 grams 77 x 95

    I am confused. Compare olympus and Nikon. Why are Nikon making a fat boy super zoom?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. NikoDoby

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    Joined: May '09
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    "real world" image samples taken with a Nikon 1 J1

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NIKONJ1/NIKONJ1GALLERY.HTM

    Henrik1963 said:
    Why are Nikon making a fat boy super zoom?

    "Fat Boy Super Zoom" is my new screen name ;^)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Mike Gunter

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    Hi BJrichus,

    I don't agree with him on a lot, there's a lot of puffery on his pages, but he does raise several good points (on several topics - if you can sift, he desperately needs a Max Perkins to his Thomas Wolfe pen).

    Looking at the specifications on the mirrorless cameras, there are a few things that are just odd. The motion snapshot thingy will get old quick, and I'm guessing that will be a hopeful source for 'PictureTown' revenue that will likely fall flat. Too many other online outlets to place content.

    As the Niko asked, are the cameras are going head to head with cell phones? and if so, isn't that a losing game? Most the younger folks I know are happy with the cell phones for taking pictures. I think Nikon would be better off to partner with AT&T to come up with a interchangeable lens cell phone for reporters or even amateurs to give a damn.

    My best,

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Fat Boy Super Zoom

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    NikoDoby said:

    "Fat Boy Super Zoom" is my new screen name ;^)

    Beat you to it Niko muha haha!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. TaoTeJared

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    They have a Target market in mind and no other CONSUMER system that can do everything what the V1/J1 can.

    It is now obvious this is what Nikon is going for. Small sensor to limit data amounts and everything that goes with it.

    90% of my friends know very little about photography and always think they have to get a DSLR but then do and never use it because they don't like the size, cost of lenses, or desire to learn how to use it. The thing I always hear is that they can never get a clear photo of Sally/Johnny at practice - so they need a video camera as well. They also want a video camera with good AF, decent videos and being able to shoot slow-mo or capture very fast movement. But then it rarely gets any use it because it is another thing to carry and sharing video from a camcorder, "how do you do that" Or "I only want a few minutes of video" is the thing I hear most.

    Break down that assumption:
    DSLR = good
    DSLR = Camera with interchangeable lenses
    Camera with interchangeable lenses = good
    Sally/Johnny are not clear in photos = need faster camera or camcorder
    Camcorder = second thing to take but better with AF
    Sally/Johnny are clear and not blurry like my camera
    Easy to share photos from camera = camcorder is hard

    J1/V1 has interchangeable lenses = good
    J1/V1 is fast = Sally/Johnny are clear
    J1/V1 has good video = No second camera = good
    J1/V1 is a camera so I can share video easier

    The vast majority of people just want a camera to work and don't want to fidget with it.

    I think Nikon is delivering a good product for it's target market. The video looks like it has a potential to maybe pick up some other photogs as well who want a small system.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. adamz

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    @Mike - no matter what, there'll be still users who prefer cameras instead of phones. moreover, once You go abroad on holidays You are more likely to leave Your phone at home instead of taking it with You.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. El_Pickerel

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    I guess you could count me in the category that would consider using this or the next model of this as a teleconverter to make my long lenses even longer. The idea of my 70-200 being able to reach 540mm vs. it being 300mm right now on my D7000 is pretty tantalizing. Double the functionality by being able to leave it in my truck and shoot out the window or just grab it and go if I see something interesting roadside without having to possibly unnerve people with a huge SLR + lens.

    Is this something high on my list? No way. Falls somewhere below a 24-70, sooper-zoom, portrait lens, and full frame camera; but somewhere above a tilt-shift lens, fisheye lens, and IR-modified camera. If Nikon makes moves forward in this field I would have to give it serious thought, especially if they can make an offering with a more familiar looking, professional UI. Hell, if I see one of these in a store I will certainly pick it up (physically, not purchase-ly) and see how its interface and handling feels and see if it's even that bad.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. TaoTeJared

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    adamz said:
    @Mike - no matter what, there'll be still users who prefer cameras instead of phones. moreover, once You go abroad on holidays You are more likely to leave Your phone at home instead of taking it with You.

    A friend's younger sister and 5 of her friends traveled (from the US)to France, UK, and Spain for 2 months and all took more photos with their cell phones than cameras. It shocked the hell out of me, but I think Mike is seeing what I have seen as well. There are tons more people out there who do Not want to be photographers and just want to capture some memories than those of us who are willing to take 15lbs of gear.

    @Mike - "Max Perkins to his Thomas Wolfe pen" = awesome.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. adamz

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    @Tao - on my recent trip to India, I was lugging app 26lbs of gear in my hand luggage :) trust me I would love to travel light if only I would get the tools I need (d3s sensor in a small nex style camera with a nice small 2.8 zoom :))

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. NSXType-R

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    I agree, I don't really agree with Thom Hogan's assessment. Much of what he said was somewhat true, but I really don't agree that the V1 and the J1 doesn't directly compete with M4/3. If it doesn't compete with that then what does it compete with? DX?

    If Nikon really wants them to be viable, they better lower the price on bodies and lenses and come out with proper lenses. No one's going to buy a $1000 Nikon CX mount lens with nano coating even if it's a F/.95 lens.

    And why is it V and J?

    VJ-Day wasn't really a day to remember for the Japanese.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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