where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
I am considering purchasing a used D90 or D300 from craigslist. I dont want to get stuck with a beat up camera. I know the obvious things like look for damage to the camera. I was also going to look at the shutter actuations. Any advice on how many actuations are too many actuations? One of the cameras I am looking at says it has only 5,000 actuations.
Also, I would love to learn any other advice on purchasing a used camera from an unknown person.
As has been said many times in various threads, recorded shutter actuations means nothing, as this data can be altered or reset. The general cosmetic appearance of a camera can give SOME indication as to the life it's lead, but problems can easily be more than skin deep. Realy there is no way of knowing the background of a camera unless buying from someone you know and trust implicitly. I would not buy a used camera from an unknown person unless the price was so cheap (which probably means there is a problem) that It was worth taking a risk on it being a dud. If this isn't the case in your situation, buy from a reputable dealer who's prepared to put their money where their mouth is, and give you a warranty. Have you looked at factory reconditioned stock?
SkintBrit said:
As has been said many times in various threads, recorded shutter actuations means nothing, as this data can be altered or reset.
As far I know, the camera keeps a total count of shutter actuations and it writes it to the EXIF block that is attached to any NEF/JPG file that comes out from the camera, and read that field with any EXIF reader tool.
Now, curiosity killed the cat: How can you reset/change the value the camera controls?
- It is not affected by resetting the camera, nor by the naming conventions
you use on files created by the camera.
- I do not have the intentions to change it, just curiosity killed the cat!
elopomorph said:
I am considering purchasing a used D90 or D300 from craigslist. I dont want to get stuck with a beat up camera. I know the obvious things like look for damage to the camera. Also, I would love to learn any other advice on purchasing a used camera from an unknown person.
1) You can feel that the camera has been used a lot by looking on the printed icons over the buttons on the back of the camera, if they were used a lot, they even may be hard to read, specially he "playback arrow", "menu" and "delete" button.
2) Look on the different covers the camera has: Battery, memory-cards-slots, connectors. If they open to easy, they were used more than if they don't.
3) Look on the dirt inside the different compartments of the camera (memory-card-slots, connectors, battery)
4) Take a sensor-dust-reference-photo, there you can see how clean/dirty or even damaged the sensor is:
4.1) Put the lens on manual focusing, focus to infinite.
4.2) Use Aperture mode ("A") and select the smallest possible aperture (f/39?)
4.3) point the camera to a white or plain wall, 2 feet apart (60cm).
4.4) Take a test shot, while the camera is taking the photo move the camera to blur the details of the wall.
4.5) view the resulting photo on the camera LCD, use zoom and pane to see the details of the whole sensor.. you may discover other problems than just dust on it, for example if the camera was not properly cleaned by the previous user.
Now, if the camera comes with some lenses, that is another story, checking lenses is not my expertise, but common sense tells me to see for:
1) The mechanics of the lenses (if they move OK),
2) look on the front and back of the glass to see if it contains scratches,
3) look on the filter threads to see if they are OK,
4) Do a though-the-lens test to see if the interior of the lenses is OK, with no fungus, dust, etc.
BTW, do a Gooogle search on Lens Test and you will find nice hints as well.
Hi all,
I haven't bought digital equipment, but have bought used mechanical equipment over the years.
I've looked for any signs of 'excessive' wear - and I've worked at places where I have see what excessive wear and tear look like, scratches on barrels, worn spots on camera bodies and lenses, lots of tripod marks on the bottoms of cameras, etc., and so on. If slow shutters were slower, it was a dead give away.
As for how dirty the digital sensor is , I think you can shoot a plain sky and make a deep curve adjustment layer in Photoshop, you see how dirty the senor is. That shouldn't be a surprise, as it can be cleaned, but there it is.
Camera repair isn't loathsomely expensive either. Another thing for those on a threadbare budget might consider is to buy bargain basement equipment, salvage it and come out fairly decently in the deal. As an example, a D7000 with a set of antiquated micro primes would make a terrific portrait camera - I've been using mind to do what I've been doing without much complaint. Those lenses have been reconditioned over the years at a cost of $150 each. They are each over 25 years old. Mine are in mint condition - although they they have taken thousand of pictures they look almost new, I don't know what similar lens would cost.
You might check with Nikon Support for the cost of 'reconditioning' the model you want to buy, too. It might seal the deal for you to 'add' the cost to the camera/lens, if you have to go there. It might be worth know that it be worth it to you to recondition/refurbished a D700 body for $$$$ and add that to your cost. (They might not be forthcoming with a number, but you can ask some guys are/were willing - things change.)
I have been generally happy in my used purchases. I bought good stuff from good guys and good stores. Also, and this is key, I got stuff I either needed or thought I needed due to a job or situation - something to fulfill. Certainly make sure that a need is driving the train.
My best,
Mike
Please do a forum search. Shutter activations can be reset! The EXIF data is NOT a reliable indicator of camera usage. It is NOT like a car's odometer.
Thanks for the sage advice.
I am curious. If the shutter activations were not reset, what is considered a high number of actuations? What is the expected actuations of a nikon body?
I think the shutters are supposedly tested to last like 100,000+ actuations (don't take my word on that though). Well I am an average shooter and in 1.5 years I have taken about 3800 pictures. I know people that really use theirs can shoot 50,000 in a year. I think Mike said he took like 2000 at one shoot the other day.
I would look at the wear one everything like others said. I have purchased used equipment and have no regrets on mine. I haven't however purchased used from a person...they were all from stores.
My D70 is rated for about 50,000 activations. My EXIF data says it has around 34,000. I know for a fact that my camera has more than 150,000 actual activations.
Here is a thread started few months ago about for shutter activations: http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=2533
I do not think that most of the photographers will "tweak" their camera for showing a smaller shutter actuation count, and also, a photographer that is selling his/her gear for getting a new gear will not play dirty on you. (Although the world also contains the ones that will take advance for $$ opportunities)
For resellers, the picture may be different, they do want to make money from the equipment they sell, and they may have the interest in making the gear they sell more "sexy", therefore some may use not fair steps (I wanted to say illegal, but I could be miss-understand), like changing the shutter actuations to make the camera look almost unused.. they may have also the experience in doing it, due that it may not be a step they do only once, but they may repeat it for the many cameras that came to their hands... (Disclaimer: I'm not saying "all" resellers. I want to think that only a minor number of them may do this dirty stuff)
Another reason why not to look only on the shutter actuations:
1) One photographer almost unused his camera but treated without care, exchanged lenses with the camera turned "on" on a dusty environment, store the camera over his desk that the strong sun reaches during the afternoon, etc...
2) A second one took a ton of photos, but his camera was always well kept and well treated. (Always stored in a well designed bag/place, never exchanged lenses with the camera "on" and on a dust-free environment, used certified equipment only( batteries, memory cards, lenses, etc)
Which camera you would take among the above two examples?
The only way to really know the condition is to actually use it. If you are buying off the "Bay" or from "Craig" the best thing you can do is make sure there is a 5+ day return policy. I buy & sell lenses off of the Bay all the time and when I receive something I test it throughly, immediately (10+ hours of heavy use) to make sure everything works as it should.
Things I do/ pseudo rules I follow:
Always skip the people who do not accept returns.
Test equipment within 24hrs of receiving it.
Check for rattles, something shaking inside, funny sounds, etc.
I try to stay away from consumer models as they have more of a chance of failure.
Alway get the item insured for the full price paid. Sometimes it is your only recourse.
Stick to buying from home country (North America for USA)
Always use Paypal.
Generally I stay away from equipment from humid environments.
I usually stay away from equipment from Pros since it probably used much more and had opportunities to get banged up more.
As for the cameras you are looking at, both are getting quite old (in terms of release date.) I would see if they can tell you when they purchased it. If it is older than two years I would normally shy away from the D90 for sure and the D300 would be on the edge as it is a much more robustly built camera. If you are not saving at least 25-40% on a body, I would suggest buying a new model even if it is one model below what you were looking at. Nothing worse than buying a used camera and having a shutter or something go out. Usual repairs are at least $200.
Yes actuations don't mean much at all. You can shoot all day without a memory card and the actuations will not register they just get recorded on the buffer. The camera will record just one image on top of another without saving anything. I heard about this from a camera shop where I live when I was trying a used D3X with supposedly 100 actuations yeah right...
Be careful I have bought a lot of used stuff but I can physically try it out in person. Ebay is tough because you don't really know what you are getting even they have 100% feedback. I have trouble buying older Leica glass lots of junk so I get out the old flashlight to really check glass for scratches and other damage. I had trouble with an old 50mm Summicron from 1968 almost got screwed out of $1200.
rbid said:
I do not think that most of the photographers will "tweak" their camera for showing a smaller shutter actuation count, and also, a photographer that is selling his/her gear for getting a new gear will not play dirty on you.
You aren't really that naive are you? But there doesn't have to be nefarious intent to reset the shutter count. This is what I wrote in the other shutter count thread:
NikoDoby said:
I'm not saying everyone who's advertising a low count camera is trying to scam buyers. Often times sellers don't even know the count has been reset because they only look at the count when they are putting their camera up for sale. They just assume the count is accurate. However I'm always suspicious when a supposedly low count camera is the "focus" of a higher price or quick sale. With so many D90s hitting the used market now buyers should beware.
Just because your camera says 30,000 activations it doesn't mean that they are 30,000 life-time shutter releases.
rbid said:
Another reason why not to look only on the shutter actuations:1) One photographer almost unused his camera but treated without care, exchanged lenses with the camera turned "on" on a dusty environment, store the camera over his desk that the strong sun reaches during the afternoon, etc...
2) A second one took a ton of photos, but his camera was always well kept and well treated. (Always stored in a well designed bag/place, never exchanged lenses with the camera "on" and on a dust-free environment, used certified equipment only( batteries, memory cards, lenses, etc)
Which camera you would take among the above two examples?
Not sure what you are trying to say in the above statement? Changing lenses with the camera on will lead to dust on the sensor. That's something easy to spot and clean. Leaving your camera on a desk near a window isn't going to cause much damage. Cameras are designed to withstand lots of heat (unless you leave the lens pointing at the sun). I'd be more concerned if the camera and lens were kept in humid conditions.
I mean honestly if you see the product in person you can really tell if it has been abused. You might also strike up some conversation about the item in mind and ask about it and what they used it for, why they are selling it...might give you some info about it. Just try it really...for the body it should be somewhat obvious if it is working OK or not.
I find all the talk about shutter count odd and rather obsessive. I have a D50 with 60k activations after a IR conversion. Who knows how many it really has and it still works great. I had a D80 with 10k (bought new, positive it was +/- 100) and it failed 1 month after I sold it to a friend. (She got it fixed for about $230 - 3/1/2011). D300 is bumping up to 75k and not a single problem. Shutter can go on on any camera at any time. There are many other things that can go out much easier.
If I am buying used on anything, I take the price, add the cost of a repair ($250), add shipping ($40) and if that total amount is more than 70% of the new price I pass on it or buy new.
Most are not going to see the product in person anymore with ebay, craig's list and the like. I stay away from Craig's list since if someone hoses you, you have no recourse. At least with Ebay you do as a buyer and seller. I have had a buyer break a lens within 2 days of receiving it and tried to return it saying it was broken. At least I took photos of it being packed before it shipped and Ebay ruled very fairly.
See my note above and just move fast on the item. The more time that goes by before checking it, the less of a chance you have to get your money back.
I believe if you take a Raw + Jpeg, the shutter count goes up by 2 instead of 1, even though the shutter fired once. This can also be misleading.
JJump said:
I believe if you take a Raw + Jpeg, the shutter count goes up by 2 instead of 1, even though the shutter fired once. This can also be misleading.
No. I just checked with my D70s and the count goes up by one when taking RAW + JPEG.
Both files have the same number, and taking a new shot, that is another pair of files that will have the same number (the previous number incremented by one)
You might consider buying a camera from Keh Camera with a LN or EX rating. I bought an F6 from them less than a year ago that was LN- and it looks brand new. All the buttons and skin look like they have hardly been used. Got it for about $ 1000 less that new at B&H. Don't know how many actuations it has on it.
DaveO
NikoDoby said:
Not sure what you are trying to say in the above statement? Changing lenses with the camera on will lead to dust on the sensor. That's something easy to spot and clean. Leaving your camera on a desk near a window isn't going to cause much damage. Cameras are designed to withstand lots of heat (unless you leave the lens pointing at the sun). I'd be more concerned if the camera and lens were kept in humid conditions.
Oops, I forgot to mention that in some locations of the globe, the sun burns stronger than in other locations, as a Mountain Bike Rider, I see that even robust GPS devices, their LCD tends to dim after it is exposed to direct sun light for a long time, the same happens with almost all cameras that have a LCD on top (Even film cameras). A friend of mine has his D90 top LCD almost not readable due that the camera is most of the time on his desk at work that has direct sunlight during most of the days of the year.
About the sensor, that is true, a careful photographer will have less dust than one that do not care about its gear.. also some may clean "correctly" their sensors, while others may use "abrasive" (non-recommended methods) for cleaning their sensor.
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