Preset for WB for IR (Hoya R72) on the D7000...

Nikon Rumors Forum » Nikon DSLR » [D7000]

Preset for WB for IR (Hoya R72) on the D7000...

(29 posts) (9 voices)

Tags:

12 Next »

rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

Hello,

This sophisticated camera (as predicted) can't do a manual preset of WB measuring a green grass under the sun with the Hoya R72 filter on the lens.

I know that the D7000 has a strong IR filter on the sensor... and I do not plan to convert this new toy to an IR camera (by removing/replacing the IR filter on the sensor... like it is done for IR photography)

Now, I see that the camera can be set manually to a specific color temperature.

What is the temperature for an IR shot?
(I guess that is below 2500K. ... #$%^$&$#^*&).

Does somebody has some experience with IR and the D7000?

With my old D70s I had no problems and all worked as required..

Can I use a NEF from my old D70s to preset the WB on the D7000?
... Is this possible?

Posted 2 years ago #
sevencrossing

preferred member
Joined: Sep '10
Posts: 1,265
offline

I dont think you can do IR photography with most curret DSLRs You may have to stick with the D70

Posted 2 years ago #
Drab

preferred member
Joined: Aug '10
Posts: 540
offline

Thom Hogan and others have said that the D7000 has Nikon's strongest IR blocking filter to date.

Forget white balance. That's not your problem. Your problem is the camera's complete lack of sensitivity in that range. Forget white balance.

Buy a D70 or D50.

Forget white balance.

Posted 2 years ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

A D70s Preset for WB can not be loaded on the D7000 :(

Drab said:
Forget white balance. That's not your problem. Your problem is the camera's complete lack of sensitivity in that range. Forget white balance.

I have some experience with IR on my D70s :)

As far I know, without the correct WB settings, you can not get the proper results our of an IR photo. (This is required before you swap the Red/Blue channels).

Here are some resources for IR Workflows:
- http://dpfwiw.com/ir.htm
- http://www.lifepixel.com/digital-infrared/digital-infrared-photography-instructions.html
- http://www.lifepixel.com/videos/basic-infrared-photoshop-info.html
- http://www.xdeltax.com/infrared/index.html (NSFW?)
- http://www.naturfotograf.com/UV_IR_rev00.html

I will continue to play and post my results in this thread

Posted 2 years ago #
Drab

preferred member
Joined: Aug '10
Posts: 540
offline

rbid said:
As far I know, without the correct WB settings, you can not get the proper results our of an IR photo. (This is required before you swap the Red/Blue channels).

Are you having a problem getting results or are you having a problem getting results with an aesthetically pleasing color cast? For even on the D70(s) WB does not affect the IR light captured, it only is affecting the color cast of the visible light which makes it through your add-on visible-blocking filter. Even the links you bring to the discussion say the same thing.

WB is the icing. I strongly suspect your cake isn't baked.

Posted 2 years ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

Drab said:
Are you having a problem getting results or are you having a problem getting results with an aesthetically pleasing color cast? For even on the D70(s) WB does not affect the IR light captured, it only is affecting the color cast of the visible light which makes it through your add-on visible-blocking filter. Even the links you bring to the discussion say the same thing.

WB is the icing. I strongly suspect your cake isn't baked.

Agree with you. WB does not change the light captured..

The problem is that tools like Photoshop, Nikon Capture and others are not tailored for fixing the WB on IR photos (Because the limit is below the allowed color temperature), therefore if you get the WB correctly calibrated on the camera, you don't need to fight with the tools to get the results you expect.

With the D70s I do not have these problems due to the fact that I'm able to pre-set the correct WB, and then the PP work is easy. (It could be easier if I convert my D70s for IR)

Googling for IR and the D7000 shows some neat results. I will investigate more and give the results in this thread.

Posted 2 years ago #
jonnyapple

Goldfingers
Joined: May '09
Posts: 3,400
offline

I have never done any IR photography so this may be very naive, but wouldn't you actually want a very high WB temp for IR photography to boost red (and IR) and kill blue? What does, say, lightroom or ACR give for the "As Shot" color temp when you use a preset white balance from a D70 IR shot?

Posted 2 years ago #
Drab

preferred member
Joined: Aug '10
Posts: 540
offline

rbid said:
The problem is that tools like Photoshop, Nikon Capture and others are not tailored for fixing the WB on IR photos (Because the limit is below the allowed color temperature), therefore if you get the WB correctly calibrated on the camera, you don't need to fight with the tools to get the results you expect.

With the D70s I do not have these problems due to the fact that I'm able to pre-set the correct WB, and then the PP work is easy. (It could be easier if I convert my D70s for IR)

I'm not about to pull manuals, but does the D70s actually have a broader range of white balance allowances than the D7000 OR is the D70s allowing more IR light per unit of visible light and thus there is not nearly as much ambient "pollution" to kill? For if I understand correctly what's going on, by pegging the WB all one is doing is "deamplifying" a broad spectrum of normal visible light through the WB filters in the digital domain. A rather elegant hack, but a hack nonetheless.

I very much suspect it is the second one, meaning that WB is not your problem. It is one of mitigating the effect of visible light and the fact your D7000 allows too much of it relative to IR.

Posted 2 years ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

@rbid - I had an old D50 converted and have used every R72 filter-types out there.

To be honest the best way is having a camera converted.

That being said shoot a green background (grass in sunlight) and use that as the WB image. That should get you most of the way there.

Posted 2 years ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

TaoTeJared said:
@rbid - I had an old D50 converted and have used every R72 filter-types out there.

To be honest the best way is having a camera converted.

That being said shoot a green background (grass in sunlight) and use that as the WB image. That should get you most of the way there.

I wish I could convert my D70s, but in this crazy country there is no way to convert it, currently I want my D70s as a backup camera and also the camera I take for my Mountain Bike rides. (keeping my D7000 safe from that)

Posted 2 years ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

Getting any camera converted is a gamble since there is allot that can go wrong. Try the green grass or (green paper) custom WB. A red card WB creates interesting results as well.

Let us know if that works.

Posted 2 years ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

TaoTeJared said:
Getting any camera converted is a gamble since there is allot that can go wrong. Try the green grass or (green paper) custom WB. A red card WB creates interesting results as well.

Let us know if that works.

Using grass on the non-converted D70s works.. but not on the D7000 (I guess this is due to the stronger low-pass filter (that prevents IR light to reach the sensor) and I guess that the software also do not allow wrong WB values (from the point of view of Nikon).

Do you know what is the custom color temperature recorded in an IR WB?

Posted 2 years ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

I have no clue what the measured WB would be. The shift is so great that I don't think you could change it. I have tried using temperature settings and never got close. All the custom WB does is to shift color in the image and really is better on the computer than camera. I have noticed that the older cameras shift much more than new one's for sure.

Maybe the D7000 is "too smart" for the type of IR photography using external filters. I know my D300 didn't work well with the filters at all either due to the low-pass filter.

Posted 2 years ago #
Testing123

preferred member
Joined: Oct '10
Posts: 232
offline

TaoTeJared said:
Maybe the D7000 is "too smart" for the type of IR photography using external filters. I know my D300 didn't work well with the filters at all either due to the low-pass filter.

Not to be pedantic, but the "low pass" filter when talking about bayer-pattern digital cameras is the AA filter, the one which "blurs", the one which prevents aliasing by attenuating those high-spatial-resolutions which would alias on the Bayer pattern, passing the low, low pass.

A filter over the sensor which blocks lower wavelengths, IR, would be a "high pass", allowing through the higher frequencies of light, the visible spectrum.

I assume there is a second low pass filter, one blocking UV, but that doesn't get talked about much and said role might be accomplished in other ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter

Posted 2 years ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

Filter either way. Thanks for the correction.

Posted 2 years ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

Testing123 said:
Not to be pedantic, but the "low pass" filter when talking about bayer-pattern digital cameras is the AA filter, the one which "blurs", the one which prevents aliasing by attenuating those high-spatial-resolutions which would alias on the Bayer pattern, passing the low, low pass.

A filter over the sensor which blocks lower wavelengths, IR, would be a "high pass", allowing through the higher frequencies of light, the visible spectrum.

I assume there is a second low pass filter, one blocking UV, but that doesn't get talked about much and said role might be accomplished in other ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter

Thanks for the correction, I am the one to blame for the mistake not TaoTeJared :)

TaoTeJared said:
I have no clue what the measured WB would be. The shift is so great that I don't think you could change it. I have tried using temperature settings and never got close. All the custom WB does is to shift color in the image and really is better on the computer than camera. I have noticed that the older cameras shift much more than new one's for sure.

Maybe the D7000 is "too smart" for the type of IR photography using external filters. I know my D300 didn't work well with the filters at all either due to the low-pass filter.

Yes, the software engineer at Nikon does not like IR photography :) (Just kidding)

I will try to use my D70s NEF file and convert it to a D7000 NEF file, and see what I get. The only problem is that Nikon guys have encrypted the new way they store the WB on newer NEF files, therefore freeware tools that worked smoothly in the past, now they have problems to deal with it.

Posted 2 years ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

rbid said:
I will try to use my D70s NEF file and convert it to a D7000 NEF file, and see what I get. The only problem is that Nikon guys have encrypted the new way they store the WB on newer NEF files, therefore freeware tools that worked smoothly in the past, now they have problems to deal with it.

Unfortunately that will not do anything. The "smarts" are in the camera not the exported file. Examples: more accurate WB range, IR cut off filter, in camera software that handles/cuts IR, etc. The closest you can come with software is to shoot everything in RAW and then swap colors in PS or like program. I understand your associating the colors with WB but in actuality it is not a WB setting.

For normal photography, IR is really an issue with sensors and images. Great lengths have been taken to remove IR and some UV so resulting images are much better. End result? IR photography suffers. Since there are so few of us who attempt IR and conversion services are available, companies don't see this as an issue. I'm afraid you will probably not be able to do IR photography using a filter in the way you did on the D70s. I have heard of Canon's new releases having similar solutions applied that nullify IR photography.

I have been looking for options for my D300 since it's purchase since I have the same issues you are experiencing for a couple of years now, and I have never found anything other than a body conversion.

If you can find a way, please let me know.

http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1111417 - is a good basic tutorial for software manipulation.

Posted 2 years ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

@TaoTeJared: I always learn something new from your advice. Thanks!

I found a free tool called IFRaw that I'm starting to play, and for my surprise, it allows to set WB in IR photos...

I will post my results here.

Posted 2 years ago #
NikoDoby

The Terminator
Joined: May '09
Posts: 6,598
offline

rbid, please don't bump so many threads with the same info. You posted this four times within a few minutes.

Posted 2 years ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

NikoDoby - can you combine the other thread with this one? Both were very similar but had different info. It would seem to make since.

@rbid - I will have to look into that program. Thanks for the update!

Posted 2 years ago #
Eskasi

new member
Joined: May '11
Posts: 1
offline

I know this thread is about a month old. But after doing a lot of research, I found some solutions...

Basically, you can convert your NEF files to DNG using Adobe's DNG converter, Then open it in the DNG profile Editor. (Both free to download from Adobe). DNG profile editor can do WB temps of far lower than 2000K. On the right side, choose the color "Color Matrices" tab and adjust the white balance of your image with it. (I slid mine ALL the way to the left and adjusted a few other settings slightly, your milage may vary). Once you have done it, save your profile (I saved mine as D7000 IR) and then chose to export it from the file menu.

Now when you open any IR file DNG or NEF in PS using ACR (Adobe Camera RAW), on the right side, click on the camera calibration tab (the one that looks like a little camera) and load the camera profile which you saved (Mine was D7000 IR). Presto, you will have the same WB setting as set as in the DNG Profile Editor. You will notice that the K value is also changed.... take no notice of it as you have "Recalibrated" it now.

I hope this helps anyone else trying to fiddle with doing this. It hasn't been easy trying to find this solution. I shoot a D7000 now and am picking up a modified D7000 next week. Will post my findings then. I did my tests using a cheap 720 IR filter with a D7000 and a Tokina 11-16 (no hotspot). You can find me on Flickr if you have more questions. Hopefully I may be able to help.

Cheers,
Kay Burn

Posted 1 year ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

@Kay Burn: Thanks for your advice.

I guess that a IR Modified D7000 is the best solution... but I'm not there yet (due to the lack of $$$).

You have excellent photos on your sets .. I'm still looking to find some IR photos there... thanks for sharing.

--- Ricky Marek

Posted 1 year ago #
TaoTeJared

preferred member
Joined: Apr '10
Posts: 2,422
offline

@rbid - You might want to try a converted higher end digi cam. Cheaper and really when it comes down to it, you will be shooting in bright sunlight/day light all the time.

IR shooting in low light really doesn't turn out good (pictures) at all or I have not found anything that does. Due to the way IR works, there inherently is less minute detail and just edge detail so noise doesn't show up and you can blow images up a lot larger since a lot of surface details are smoothed out. 100% of my shots are at the lowest ISO, bright partly cloudy days and with foliage. So basically the camera's best performance settings. Personally I would rather have a G9 converted than my D50 since I'm always shooting at the base iso images and I would like to take it with me more when I'm shooting but I don't want to make room for another body.

Posted 1 year ago #
weatherfreak

junior member
Joined: Oct '11
Posts: 6
offline

If you're prepared to go thru the motions with post using Capture NX2 to remove the red hue. I use a custom WB from a still with the R72 on. The majority of the photo has green in it. The midday sun thing NEVER worked for me.
I then open it in Cap NX2, open white balance, I then set a grey point from the drop box. Hit start and use either a marquee square or set point, give it a second to calculate the new WB and your off. Channel mix if you so desire. You might need to adjust further.
Good luck

Posted 1 year ago #
rbid

preferred member
Joined: Jan '11
Posts: 344
offline

weatherfreak said:
If you're prepared to go thru the motions with post using Capture NX2 to remove the red hue. I use a custom WB from a still with the R72 on. The majority of the photo has green in it. The midday sun thing NEVER worked for me.
I then open it in Cap NX2, open white balance, I then set a grey point from the drop box. Hit start and use either a marquee square or set point, give it a second to calculate the new WB and your off. Channel mix if you so desire. You might need to adjust further.
Good luck

Thanks.. I will use your advice :)

Posted 1 year ago #