NIkon SU-800 Wireless Speedlight Commander (Discussion) « Nikon Rumors Forum

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NIkon SU-800 Wireless Speedlight Commander (Discussion)

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studio460

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I've finally decided to order the NIkon SU-800 Wireless Speedlight Commander. I'm buying it to enable wireless-TTL control over my off-camera, SB-800 Speedlight, without having to fire an on-camera flash. I currently own an SB-800 and an SB-600 (plus, a pile of "dumb" Vivitar 283s with VariPower modules). In the past, I've used cheap, $10 optical slaves to trigger all of my my "dumb" flashes, and I seem to remember that they didn't work well in broad daylight.

I know the SU-800 operates on IR. The photos I'm planning to shoot with the SU-800 will primarily be at magic-hour (the 20-minute period, just after the sun sets), so the ambient daylight should be fairly subdued.

My plan is to mount the SU-800 on my Nikon body's hot shoe, and have my SB-800 Speedlight mounted on a 40" extension arm, clamped to a Matthews Foamcore holder, with a 4' x 4' piece of Foamcore attached. This rig will be handheld by an assistant. The assistant will be about 20'-30' from my shooting position, with a clear line-of-sight to the SU-800. Apparently, the SU-800 also supports the SB-600, so I'll probably put that on a stand, on a separate channel-group, and use it as a three-quarter kick, also with a clear line-of-sight to the SU-800. This is all on location, outside.

I don't expect a problem at dusk, but I was wondering how well the SU-800's IR works in bright daylight. If anyone here owns an SU-800, and has tried it in bright daylight, how does it perform?

Posted 2 years ago #
Mike Gunter

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Hi Studio,

I dunno... But I do use a SB900 or SB800 and they are fine for Masters, too, indoors and out. Others can chime in, I'm sure, but they extend the reach a lot.

They can also be tied into the network of flashes for the TTL bank I use a set of extensions to put it (the master SB900) off camera as part of the lighting scheme and Commander of the lighting set.

I have had a jones for the radio controlled units that work within the Nikon CLS. That would be very cool. The SU-800 is still using line of sight.

My best,

Mike

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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Thanks for your reply, Mike. I just did a quick search, and as I understand it, the SB-900, and other Nikon Speedlights which can be used as on-camera commanders, use the pre-flash function of its regular flash tube to communicate with the other flashes. The SU-800 only has its IR emitter. Hopefully, old-fashioned optical slaves were more sensitive to high ambient light conditions than the SU-800/Speedlight IR receiver combination are.

I'm not working near other photographers, and I don't need to see around walls, so if the SU-800 works in daylight, it will save me the expense and added complexity of third-party wireless slaves.

Well, I guess I'm buying it anyway--I've been meaning/wanting to buy an SU-800 for years. Will report here how it performs.

Posted 2 years ago #
jerl

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So how exactly does the SU-800 work? My impression is that it just uses IR to send its preflashes instead of using visible light. If so then there would be the same amount of time lag as you would with normal CLS operation (one of the big reasons why I've decided to avoid using it). Or have they created a solution where there is no time lag, similar to using optical slaves (or SU-4 mode)?

Posted 2 years ago #
Gareth

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i would take that 300 bucks and invest in pocket wizards or radio poppers. seems like a waste of 300 bucks to me (and i just used a sb-700 to trigger a sb-800 and a sb-700 in the roof beams of a school performance yesterday).

there is only so much benefit you will get from the su-800, the sky is the limit with a good radio setup.

Posted 2 years ago #
NikoDoby

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+1 with Gareth.

Posted 2 years ago #
Niz

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Can you use a pocket wizard to fire off the speed lights?

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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jerl said:
So how exactly does the SU-800 work? My impression is that it just uses IR to send its preflashes instead of using visible light.

I assume so. I wasn't aware there was any lag. How long is it?

Gareth said:
i would take that 300 bucks and invest in pocket wizards or radio poppers. seems like a waste of 300 bucks to me . . .

Well, I already ordered it. For only $249, I'm done, with the SU-800. The SU-800 "controls an unlimited number of Speedlights for up to three groups." To me, that sounds well worth it.

With PocketWizards, in addition to the main unit, I gotta buy receivers for each flash unit (about $600 to accommodate two Speedlights). For many of my applications, the assistant will be much closer, about five to ten feet.

Niz said:
Can you use a pocket wizard to fire off the speed lights?

Yes. PocketWIzards enable wireless-iTTL control over your Nikon Speedlights, using RF (radio frequency) rather than IR (infra-red). IR needs line-of-sight; RF does not. You need to buy an RF transmitter/receiver for your camera, and one for each flash unit. The RF signal is digitally encoded, so you can still shoot around other photographers, who may also be using PocketWizards, by choosing an unused frequency/code.

With the SU-800, you only need the SU-800 and any CLS-compatible Nikon Speedlight. Its specified range is 66 feet (assuming clear line-of-sight). While you can't choose among hundreds of digital codes, the SU-800 at least offers four IR "channels."

/

Does anyone here actually own an SU-800?

Posted 2 years ago #
pjtan25

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I have the R1C1 and I use the SU800 to trigger 2 SB900 and 1 SB800. (and 2 SBR200 for Macros) on my D3S.

In bright daylight I occasionally run into problems with the flash not getting the signal from the SU800. Enough to be annoying.

I am considering getting the MiniTT1 & FlexTT5 from PocketWizard to work with Nikons.
But currently I am waiting for the AC3 to be available.
Until such time, it still doesn't offer the functionality of the SU800, which is to control 3 independant zones with iTTL and flash exposure compensation for each zone.

Patrick

Posted 2 years ago #
Gareth

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i love using my sb-700 as a master, but the sb-800, oh no! so troublesome. with the fifth battery the sb-800 does keep up with an sb-700 though. my sb-800 can command an unlimited number of flashes as well, in three groups, and the sb-700 in two groups. i wish i could justify pocket wizards. i briefly looked at the su-800 instead of the used sb-800 i just picked up and it looked out of date. they need to update it with the new sb-900/700 layout.

in regards to the performance i just shot I used;

SB-700 on camera
Sb-700 superclamped to beams with westcott double fold umbrella.
Sb-800 superclamped to beams with westcott double fold umbrella.

i aimed the sb-700 straight up (angled towards roof flashes depending on shooting location) to fire the umbella'd sb-800 and 700. The 700 is quick and simple to adjust and a credit to a CLS system. The 800 cannot even turn of the master flash, so you are stuck bouncing it at 1/128, just to trigger the slaves and the AF assist doesn't cover all focus points. boooo.

it was very dark in there even with the stage lights. i think it was about 1/20 2.8 ISO1000. the sides of the stage were far darker than the middle and there were big hot spots. with this setup i managed to get some great shots. (using 14bit RAW on a d300s with a 50 1.4G at f/2-f/2.8 and a d700 with a 35 1.4G at f/1.4-f/2.8)

i highly recommend sanyo 2700 nimh. they recycle much faster than my eneloops.

I would post some pics, but the best ones are not of my kids.

Posted 2 years ago #
Gareth

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ooooh that AC3 looks so good...

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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pjtan25 said:

In bright daylight I occasionally run into problems with the flash not getting the signal from the SU800. Enough to be annoying.

Patrick

Thanks, Patrick! Yup, I was afraid of that. But, only in very bright daylight conditions, right? The PocketWizards are tempting, but they seem to be in very short supply (B+H is out of stock of both the FlexTT5 and MiniTT1). I need to do a wireless TTL set-up for shoot with a model this weekend, so I needed something right away.

Gareth said:
i love using my sb-700 as a master, but the sb-800, oh no!

So, I gather that you're able to use the SB-700 as a commander without it firing its own (visible) flash? Also, not clear on what's wrong with the SB-800? Slow recycle times? I won't be using its internal batteries--I have a high-voltage Quantum Turbo for my SB-800.

/

Perhaps the largest advantage over the SU-800, that the new MiniTT1 and FlexTT5 PocketWizards have, is their ultra-fast, high-speed synch speed (e.g., 1/8,000th). I wasn't aware of this extremely valuable, and unique, feature at the time I ordered my SU-800. However, the SU-800's capabilities still have enough value for me to probably keep it (just shipped today--will receive it this week).

Also, I Googled the key words in this thread, and did find several other posts on other photo forums complaining that the SU-800's performance in bright daylight is uneven, to unusable. Then, I found a rather detailed review of the SU-800, where the photographer tested its IR performance under fairly arduous conditions, albeit indoors, and it performed surprisingly well.

On the upside, for quick and dirty multiple Speedlight control, the SU-800's control panel layout couldn't be simpler: three "groups" labeled 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' each with a directly changeable exposure correction in +/- EV, right on the back of the SU-800's LCD screen. Looking forward to trying it out this weekend with my SB-800. Now, if I only knew where I "stored" my SB-600 . . .

/

While looking for my "lost" SB-600 in the garage, I found two of my VariPowered Vivitar 283s (I think I have three). WIth my SU-800 B+H order, I also bought two more "dumb" flashes: the Sunpak flat-panel units. At only $52 each, I couldn't resist. Those should be fun. Plus, they have built-in optical slaves. Of course, they're non-TTL, but if they're too bright, I'll just throw some Lee 250 or 216 on 'em (or move them farther away).

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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I just finished building my portable Foamcore bounce rig for my Nikon SB-800 Speedlight. I haven't received my SU-800 yet from B+H, but I tried it out with my SC-29 remote TTL cable, and it seems to work great. I'm planning to use this rig this weekend.

Standard Matthews C-stand with 40" extension arm and Matthews Foamcore holder.

Nikon SB-800 on an RPS umbrella shoe-mount with 3/8" male-male spud held by an additional Matthews grip head.

The additional Matthews grip head slides along extension arm to adjust flash distance from the Foamcore.

FIrst test shot: Nikon D7000 w/AF DC-Nikkor 105mm f/2.0D + SB-800 bounced into 30" x 50" Foamcore.

I've been thinking about building this for some time. I wanted the ultimate in portability, but with zero set-up time, yet still with a large source, so that I could take it to virtually any location and still have a very soft key. An assistant can simply handhold the extension arm (we would lose the C-stand for location work), with the Foamcore and Speedlight already attached. The SU-800 would maintain wireless-iTTL control over my Speedlight. A Quantum Turbo battery, clipped to the assistant's belt, provides external power to the Speedlight for super-fast recycle times. Very mobile. Perfect for places where I'm not allowed to set up stands.

Posted 2 years ago #
sevencrossing

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Gareth said:
i would take that 300 bucks and invest in pocket wizards

But do read the thread on Nikon Pocket Wizards first. The SU 800 does have some advantages over wizards

Posted 2 years ago #
Gareth

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for the ultimate on portability I bought a Slik Tripod Case #1550 for up to 550mm folded length tripod.
It's a smaller version or this
http://www.adorama.com/SLCSP25.html
(1660 is for up to 660mm tripod, 1550 is for up to 550mm)

it holds

2 westcott 42" umbrellas
2 lumopro 7' light stands
2 superclamps
2 lumopro umbrella adapters

it could still fit all three of my flashes (i would put zoot snoots on the outside or they would get beat up) and pocket wizrads in the outside pocket.

the bag is very small, has padding, a shoulder strap, carry handle, nice zips and is cheap. what more could you want?

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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sevencrossing said:
. . . The SU 800 does have some advantages over wizards.

Mainly, cost. If using PocketWizards, as I add Speedlights, I need to add TT5s at $200 each. Since the SU-800 doesn't require any add-on receivers, there are no additional costs as you add Speedlights.

And, the original goal of the Foamcore bounce rig was actually to create a large 4' x 8' bounce source (for head-to-toe shots), using multiple Speedlights (although, a 4' x 4', single-Speedlight rig is a convenient size for portrait work). Based on my tests last night, here's what I found:

A Nikon SB-800, set to 24mm (its widest setting), at 36" from the bounce board, had a beam spread of approximately 30" x 30" (no diffuser). Adding a small diffuser to the flash head would enable the Speedlight to completely cover a 4' x 4' half-sheet of Foamcore.

So, two Speedlights would likely be able to illuminate a full 4' x 8' sheet of Foamcore (with diffusers attached). You could also create an effective 8' x 8' source using two sheets of 4' x 8' Foamcore, side-by-side, lit by four Speedlights. Since the SU-800 can control up to 99 Speedlights per group, as long as you're not shooting in broad daylight (and, can maintain line-of-sight), the SU-800 represents a simple, affordable solution for maintaining wireless-iTTL control over all four Speedlights.

You would then still have two more unused groups, each with their own +/- EV compensation, to accommodate additional Speedlights, which may be used for backlights, kicks, or background specials. But, since Speedlights are expensive, you can often get by just by using cheap "dumb" flashes with built-in optical slaves for any additional accessory lighting.

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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Nikon SU-800 First Impressions:

Nikon SU-800 rear control panel.

I just got home and ripped open the SU-800 box. Apparently, it doesn't come with a CR123A battery--good thing I ordered an "extra" one. On the SU-800's menu, I set the IR channel to '4' (just to be different), and "cancelled" Speedlight groups 'B' and 'C' (indicated by the "- - -" symbols), to enable faster operation. Group 'A' is now the only one "active." On my SB-800, I pressed, and held, the "select" button to access the REMOTE option. I set the flash to channel '4' to match the SU-800, and manually zoomed its diffuser lens to 24mm.

Range + IR Reception:

I slipped the SU-800 onto my D7000's hot shoe, and voila! It works! It performed flawlessly under controlled lighting conditions. The SB-800 can even see the IR beam from angles 90-degrees oblique to the receiver. Range is about as advertised, about 60 feet. But the signal appears pretty robust, and is easily able to bounce off walls and other large flat objects to eventually hit the receiver.

Also, I just read somewhere that the SU-800's IR illuminator reportedly puts out four times the signal of a regular Speedlight's illuminator, so there may be an additional advantage to using the SU-800 over using a Speedlight as a commander when its main flash is turned off.

Overall, the SU-800's IR emitter does a pretty good job at getting the signal to the Speedlight, and in most set-ups, should work fine (I have yet to test it outdoors).

IR Delay:

I've only tested with just the one flash and the one group active. In this application, the delay is barely noticeable, and completely acceptable. With all three groups active, there may be more noticeable delay.

IR Focus-assist:

Nikon SU-800 IR illuminator.

Yup, it works! You can "cancel" all groups, if desired, and then the SU-800 works as a nifty, stand-alone AF-illuminator (AF-assist also works in active commander modes). On the D7000, it has the same constraints as the built-in, focus-assist lamp (center focus-point only).

Nikon SU-800/SB-800 Test Image:

Nikon D7000; AF DC-Nikkor 105mm f/2.0D

Nikon SU-800 Tips:

I found a few tips when Google-ing the SU-800:

1. If only using one group, turn off any unused groups. This way, the SU-800 won't waste time waiting to "hear" from non-existent Speedlights, and minimizes any delay.

2. You can use your Nikon SC-29 remote TTL cable as an extender to the SU-800, if you need to point the SU-800 in a different direction than from its position on the hot shoe.

Posted 2 years ago #
Gareth

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read my edited post on sb-700 vs 800 for additional af assist info. i can't seem to edit it any more.

Posted 2 years ago #
adamz

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@studio - using sc-29 is not a great option as it requires two hands, at least that's how I use it when I shoot on d3s

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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studio460 said:
A Nikon SB-800, set to 24mm (its widest setting), at 36" from the bounce board, had a beam spread of approximately 30" x 30" (no diffuser).

Nikon SU-800/SB-800 Tests:

The above post is incorrect. The beam spread of an SB-800 without a diffuser is larger. The SB-800's main "bright spot" projects to about 50" x 50" at its widest zoom setting (24mm), with no diffuser, at only 28" from the end of the flash head to the surface of the Foamcore. This is actually just about right for bouncing off a 4' x 4' board.

Foamcore pictured above is 30" x 50"; SB-800's flashhead is 28" from board.

SU-800 test image (spot-metered; no EV correction) from lighting set-up above; AF Nikkor 24mm f/2.8D.

My initial assessment:

After playing with this thing for a few hours, I have to say, I love it. Remember how fun your SC-29 was when you first got it? It's the same feeling, except now, it's wireless, and your iTTL-controlled Speedlight can go just about anywhere off-camera, up to about 50 feet away. It's a pretty neat tool for interior studio set-ups. Sure, IR has its limitations, but for this capability, with this degree of simplicity, at this price-point, it's pretty darned cool. Now, all I need are more Speedlights.

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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In current Nikon-speak, if a flash says it supports "iTTL," does it also mean that it supports "CLS" as well?

Now that I have the SU-800, of course, I now want more Speedlights. Trouble is, I can't exactly tell which ones are compatible. Are CLS and iTTL synonymous monikers? I would assume, not. In that, "iTTL," simply describes the flash's metering system, and that, "CLS," denotes the ability to be controlled wirelessly (either via pre-flashes from commander-capable Speedlights, or from IR sent from the SU-800). But it's darned hard to tell the differentiation from current Nikon literature.

Here's what Speedlights the Nikon USA site says are compatible with the SU-800:

1. SB-900
2. SB-800
3. SB-600
4. SB-R200

Now, obviously, Nikon's newest Speedlight, the SB-700, I would assume, is also CLS-compatible, and therefore would work with the SU-800. But Nikon hasn't yet updated the SU-800 compatibility page to include this new product. The only other current-production Nikon Speedlight model not listed is the SB-400. Its product description says it supports "iTTL flash exposure control," but mentions nothing about CLS. At only $114 each, these things would be handy if they worked with the SU-800.

Edit: Here's a quote from Ken Rockwell's site, regarding the SB-400: "Wireless Control: NONE. Useless with wireless and commander modes." So the SB-400 does NOT work with the SU-800.

Posted 2 years ago #
Correlli

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Hi studio, the German Nikon site also mentiones the SB-700 as compatible, but not the SB-400. Also, if you take a look at the photos from the backside of the SB-400 it has got only an on-off switch but no possibility to set it to remote or select a group. I don't know about Nikon USA but in Europe you can download all the manuals as PDF from the support site. You might want to have a look there just to be sure. If you can't access it let me know.

Posted 2 years ago #
adamz

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studio - I'm pretty sure SB400 doesn't work with CLS (as remote), and yes CLS and iTTL are not the same. CLS needs at least two units: master and remote. For sure SB400 can't work as remote (in standalone version), although I'm not sure if it works as a master - in all modern dslr from Nikon You can control the CLS from in-body menu. However, I'm quite positive that it will work as remote if You connect it to Your system through flex5 from pocketwizard - which, IMHO will be a good alternative to SB-900 (about the same cost of sb-400+flex5) if You need Your flash to lighten the background (which most of the time is hard to set up using regular CLS) for You.

Posted 2 years ago #
jerl

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Hmm no delay. So does that mean it works like using optical slaves in full manual mode (as soon as you press the shutter, all the flashes go off)? Or is like the normal CLS mode where you get a bunch of preflashes that last half a second or more (just with invisible preflashes)?

Posted 2 years ago #
studio460

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Correlli said:
Hi studio, the German Nikon site also mentiones the SB-700 as compatible, but not the SB-400. Also, if you take a look at the photos from the backside of the SB-400 it has got only an on-off switch but no possibility to set it to remote or select a group.

Thanks guys! That makes sense, Correlli, Adam.

jerl said:
Or, is like the normal CLS mode where you get a bunch of preflashes that last half a second or more (just with invisible preflashes)?

Yes, to the latter statement--I believe that's what's happening. Jerl, I think there is a delay, it's just very short with only one group active. I think the SU-800 does emit pre-flashes, it's just all in IR.

studio460 said:
Edit: Here's a quote from Ken Rockwell's site, regarding the SB-400: "Wireless Control: NONE. Useless with wireless and commander modes." So the SB-400 does NOT work with the SU-800.

In addition to the edit above, here's an excerpt from photo.net, from the article, "Guide to Nikon TTL Flashes," by Shun Cheung: "The SB-400 was introduced as a consumer-grade flash for casual photographers. While it is iTTL compatible, it is not part of CLS as it can neither be a wireless master nor remote. "

studio460 said:
Here's what Speedlights the Nikon USA site says are compatible with the SU-800:

1. SB-900
2. SB-800
3. SB-600
4. SB-R200

So, based on the above information, here is the complete list of all Nikon Speedlights, past and present, that are compatible with the Nikon SU-800 Wireless Speedlight Commander:

Nikon SU-800 Compatible Speedlights (as of March 2011):

1. SB-900
2. SB-700
3. SB-800
4. SB-600
5. SB-R200

When using the SU-800 as your primary commander, all you ever have to do on the slaved Speedlight's menus is set them to REMOTE, and choose an IR channel (so the older user interface becomes less of an issue). Both the SB-600 and SB-800 are more powerful than their newer counterparts, so I'll be trying to pick up more of those.

studio460 said:
I also bought two more "dumb" flashes: the Sunpak flat-panel units. At only $52 each, I couldn't resist. Those should be fun. Plus, they have built-in optical slaves.

DO NOT BUY THESE! The optical slaves don't work, and they don't synch properly!

Posted 2 years ago #

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