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Expensive lens vs Photoshop ??

(42 posts) (17 voices)
  • Started 4 years ago by nikonian
  • Latest reply from Willis
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  1. nikonian

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    okay , I ve been thinking about this A LOT and I hope everybody can share their views regarding this matter.

    what are the things that photoshop CAN'T DO and the expensive lens can do?

    i ve seen so many discussions in the forum and they talk about "okay get this L lens or nikon professional lens, its so sharp , etc"
    but when you have photoshop, TADAAA , you can actually sharpen your image. and i ve seen some people who are good in photoshop creates an unbelivably good pictures. so what is the reason people spending so much money on expensive lens?

    I am not trying to challenge anybody but I am so curious.

    okay, if someone said , the photoshop cant save crappy pic, I agree with that. But , photoshop can make the mediocre pic to be GREAT. and most of the lenses today including kit lens can take mediocre t good pic. SO WHY PAY MORE for good glass?? while we have this awesome post processing technology. is it worth it? i cant see the point.

    i am not saying that I dont like to own good glass but i just cant see why we have to spend that much. please enlighten me.

    thanks for the info everyone. I am so dead curious about this.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. tai

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    You get information about what you're looking at onto the sensor with good glass that you won't necessarily get on bad glass. Sure, you can sharpen in photoshop, but that won't bring back detail that the bad lens didn't capture in the first place. Aside from that, good glass will give you pleasing boke, which you can't necessarily mimic in photoshop, and can provide better color information. Getting faster glass is one of the main advantages to an expensive lens, and there's nothing you can do in Photoshop to truly mimic that. Photoshop can help an image, but you will get more if you start out with more.

    You can get beautiful photos out of bad lenses. Good lenses simply let you do more, and more easily.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. monty11

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    PS can only help you adjust your photos not reinvent them and like tai said, it can't save what isn't there, most adjustments in PS are destructive towards the digital information in the image and in reality every adjustment you make in PS reduces the quality.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  4. Panamon_Creel

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    PS is a powerful tool and someone with lots of time, skill and imagination could pretty much redraw a picture pixel by pixel. I don't have such a skill and I much rather spend time taking pictures that look good than trying to make them look better afterwards. Furthermore things like built quality, focusing speed and accuracy are important and there is nothing PS can do to help improve that out in the field ;)

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. Gentoo

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    I didn't read the other responses yet but nikonian, to a point you are right. Personally I believe Capture NX does a better job than Photoshop but your point remains the same. I know what you're saying though. Here's is a shot I did with a D40 and the 55-200 lens, a lens I was never too fond of:

    http://www.pbase.com/shonn/image/109942582

    It didn't look quite this cool when I took it. It took some PP in Capture NX ( I originally did it in PS but re did it recently).

    Here is one I did with my 300mm prime:

    http://www.pbase.com/shonn/image/109942431

    While also post processed, it took less work since I had a better starting point to begin with. Other advantages to better glass include the ability to push the lens to it's extremes and maintain IQ. The 70-200 remains great at 200mm where as the 55-200 really hates being pushed to it's extreme focal length. It becomes very soft and unreliable. Also the expensive pro lenses usually have a fixed aperture which is almost priceless when trying to set a precise exposure but you need to zoom, or if it's a prime it can be even better. With this, the good glass typically averages wider apertures so when the light gets weird, you won't have to push the camera to it's limits in ISO or exp. comp. as much.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. Gentoo

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    I just read the other responses now and yes, I agree with tai, monty and Panamon_Creel.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  7. adamz

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    I also agree that even with the best skills You can't create a great picture in PS when You don't have a proper foundation.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  8. warprints

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    I'm late to the party, but agree with the others. PS (and lightroom and NX2, all of which I use on occasion) can sometimes make bad photos LOOK better, but unless you are recreating the photo almost from scratch, these programs will not make a bad photo good.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. Willis

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    Photoshop is a bag of hurt for almost all adjustments you would typically make. There are simply way to many cheaper alternative out there that do 90% of what PS can do (as it relates to photos... PS does a lot more than just photo enhancements). So if its a zero sum game between money spent on glass, and money spent on photo shop, the glass wins hands down. Beyond basic color correction, distortion correction, and a handful of prepackaged adjustments, photoshop doesn't offer you very much unless you are willing to invest a lot of time in layers\masks\etc.

    If you shoot 100 pics a day like many photographers do, then your going to wind up spending all your time behind the computer and not the lens.

    To your question, here's some stuff that better lenses can get right that photoshop can't fix
    - Overexposure - Blown highlights
    - Incorrect Focus
    - Missing Composition \ Extreme Cropping (Presumeably a couple of good zooms will allow you to capture stuff you couldn't get with your cheap kit zoom.
    - Perspective - You can change the look of your image drastically by changing where you stand reletive to your subject. For instance, frame a subject at 50mm, then slap a wide zoom on your camera and move forward so that your subject occupies the same space in the frame.... now do the same thing with a telephoto and move backwards... you'll get three very different compositions none of which can be simulated in photoshop.
    - Bokeh
    If money matters, the lenses give you much more flexibility. If money doesn't matter, still get the lenses and also get photoshop. Anything you can do in PS to a poor photo, you can also do to an excellent photo.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. QuadraPixel

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    Expensive Lens > Photoshop.

    Get the dream lens, and get photoshop elements. Elements can do almost everything photoshop can if you know your way around photoshop well.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  11. Panamon_Creel

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    @ Willis regarding "Overexposure - Blown highlights"
    Not something a lens has influence on with the exception of an defective lens where the aperture blades are sticking and don't close down to the opening the camera "requested".

    Posted 4 years ago #
  12. nau

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    Willis - disagree... at the end of the day out of all the shots you still gone use less then 10%

    I think we not talking about PS here its more like
    software vs glass
    Good glass maximizes your efficiency on a field and gives you maximum material to work with in post production

    in good old days people used chemicals to get effects on their pictures now its all done digitally with more options to your creativity,

    personally I spend money on glass and on free PS tutorials on the net

    Posted 4 years ago #
  13. heartyfisher

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    Or better yet get The Gimp :-) its free and its > 90% of photoshop.

    Great lens is wonderful but is a great lens which cost 5-10 times more than a not so great lens worth it? to some yes. But to most of us amateurs, not really. A lens that cost 5-10 time more may only provide 2-4% better image quality. And if used skillfully(or your sensor resolution is not high) the difference is even smaller. eg I have a 35-70 f2.8 nikkor 2nd hand that cost me about 1/15 the price of the new 24-70 nikkor. I would say its about the same IQ in most situations I will be using it. Of course 24-70 has many advantages over the 35-70, but my 35-70 has some advantages over the 24-70 too.

    The question I think that should be asked is this. Is the advantage of super good glass over good glass better than Good PP?

    For me the answer I think is Good PP > Super Good glass.

    Of course photoghrapher skill(composition/exposure) and skill in lighting(direction and shaping) is just as important(probably more so) but that not being considered here.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  14. Gentoo

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    "@ Willis regarding "Overexposure - Blown highlights"
    Not something a lens has influence on with the exception of an defective lens where the aperture blades are sticking and don't close down to the opening the camera "requested"

    To a point. Lenses can couple differently and fool the cameras meter. Each one of my lenses requires slightly different Ex Comp settings on both my D300 and D90.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  15. adamz

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    heartyfisher - this time I have to disagree with You, how did You measured the IQ difference of 2-4% - I was using many different lenses since I started my photography journey and can say that there's a visible difference between cheap, medium and heavy price lens. Not to mention other benefits like better weather protection and faster aperture - for me it means either to get the shot or not. However, have to agree with You that Gimp will do most of the work You can do in PS, and it's opensource software. Moreover, both Aperture and Lightroom will do majority of the same work not to mention PS Elements, which I think is really underestimated.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  16. heartyfisher

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    Hi Adamz - You are most welcome to disagree ! How did I measure IQ difference? Subjectively ! LOL

    The picture below was taken with my 35-70 cheap lens (cost me $140). I doubt that the $2,000 24-70 can do so much better that there would be a noticeable difference. ... in this specific case. It may even be worse in the sense the the size of it may have frightened the creature away. No?

    Water Dragon : S5Pro & 35-70 nikkor @ 70mm F4.5 PP in The Gimp

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. monty11

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    Getting back to the subject ... you can "increase" sharpness in PS but that is artificial and basically what PS is doing for you is increasing contrast. While this might fool you average Joe, it won't be all that appealing to someone who has learned to see differently thanks to photography.

    The more experienced the viewer the harder it is to fool them and they'll know that you've tried to cheat.

    Almost every photographer is looking for some kind of recognition and since you are already a user on this site, it means that you most probably know one or two things about photography which in turn means that the layman will go WOW at your pictures, but that is no longer the recognition you need. Recognition worth something, is when it comes from someone way above your skill level and that person will most probably see the difference between the real thing and something helped along in PS. Talk to any pro and they will tell you that the best pictures need minimal correction in PS.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  18. nikonian

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    woww. awesome response from everyone here. thanks so much.

    i am a lil bit overwhelmed here. LOL. but okay, so far what I can summarize is:

    - the good lens saves you time to post process (I can accept this without a problem). I also think that editing picture with photoshop is time consuming and hard.

    - bokeh (some people said that PP cant do crap about this) and I believe it. it seems hard.

    Hearty fisher take this discussion to another level and i seriously wanna thank you man. LOL.

    THATS REALLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY BUT DAMN, somehow i just cant get that out of my mouth.

    YEAH, is the benefit of that good fast glass really worth it?

    i know i digress lil bit here but lets take this discussion even further. like people paying nikon 24-70 2.8 for 1800 bucks. this is serious dollars here and seriously is it worth that much? i am not talking about 24-70 alone. But come on. hearty fisher brings up a good point by comparing it to 35-70 2.8 and with good pp skill, 24-70 will be smoked.

    so guys, what do you think?

    I really believe what hearty fisher said. and i am still thinking that the expensive lens is not worth that much. But again, I am not trying to offend anyone here. Its good if you can afford it but we are talking whether its worth it or not.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  19. nikonian

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    woww. awesome response from everyone here. thanks so much.

    i am a lil bit overwhelmed here. LOL. but okay, so far what I can summarize is:

    - the good lens saves you time to post process (I can accept this without a problem). I also think that editing picture with photoshop is time consuming and hard.

    - bokeh (some people said that PP cant do crap about this) and I believe it. it seems hard.

    Hearty fisher take this discussion to another level and i seriously wanna thank you man. LOL.

    THATS REALLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY BUT DAMN, somehow i just cant get that out of my mouth.

    YEAH, is the benefit of that good fast glass really worth it?

    i know i digress lil bit here but lets take this discussion even further. like people paying nikon 24-70 2.8 for 1800 bucks. this is serious dollars here and seriously is it worth that much? i am not talking about 24-70 alone. But come on. hearty fisher brings up a good point by comparing it to 35-70 2.8 and with good pp skill, 24-70 will be smoked.

    so guys, what do you think?

    I really believe what hearty fisher said. and i am still thinking that the expensive lens is not worth that much. But again, I am not trying to offend anyone here. Its good if you can afford it but we are talking whether its worth it or not.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  20. Panamon_Creel

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    >> nikonian wrote: 35-70 2.8 and with good pp skill, 24-70 will be smoked <<

    Now we are starting to talk about a discontinued lens and at its inception the Nikkor 35-70 f/2.8 wasn't a "cheap" lens either.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  21. Willis

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    The thing with nikon lenses is that they are all pretty good when used for the sort of shots they were intended. My $100 18-55 kit zoom easily out resolves the D40 it came with (at the middle apertures). What this means is that you could slap my 24-70 on their and take the same shot and not be able to tell the difference.

    I suspect that if you performed the same test on a D3x, the differences would be less subtle. Owning expensive glass isn't about taking sharper images, its about being in a position to capture exactly the image you want, and having absolute control over your composition. Try shooting a wedding with a kit zoom. It will only capture 1/4 as much light (zoomed in at 55mm (f5.4) compared to the pro lens at 2.8. That means shooting at 1/250 vs. 1/60th of a second. Will that get you sharper pictures? You bet.

    My kit zoom actually zooms in or out ever so slightly as I focus. This makes tight compositions a pain... I wind up having to crop a little off every shot.

    A pro zoom feels like an instrument, not a toy (of course if I'm using it than it is a toy, as I'm no pro). You kind of have to hold one to understand, but its truly a joy to use. It zooms smoothly from the wide end to the narrow end. It has weather sealing. It finds its focus quickly and doesn't hunt. A porche and a chevy truck will both get you to your destination in about the same time (if you obey the speed limit), but the feel is unmistakeably different.

    Is expensive glass worth the money? Of course not... not for a hobbiest. Should that stop you from buying it? Absolutely not. Its you hobby, don't let anyone tell you how to enjoy it. That's only fun if your hobby happens to be listening to people.

    If you get the shot you want, the lens you use is unimportant, but I find I get more winners when I use the better glass.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  22. NSXType-R

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    The lens indeed. I don't use photoshop at all, but I do know that there are things you cannot save with photoshop because the image really is that bad.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  23. mb

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    I think we started with sharpness so maybe we just as well define what sharpness actually is.
    Sharpness consist of two aspects, lens resolution which could be precisely measured and can not be improved by PS (it can only be ruined by it actually), and acutance or the ability to produce distinguishable contours of an objects in focus inside the image that is not so easy measured and could be emphasized by PS or plug–ins to some degree that is pleasing or not to an eye of a spectator.
    Besides the sharpness there are great many other lens aspects affecting the IQ such as quality of a lack of sharpness or bokeh that is hard to measure but easily ruined by PS, light fail of and inaccuracy, various aberrations and distortions (some of them can be diminished by using PS but only by seriously affecting image sharpness and accuracy), contrast and color reproduction etc.
    PS is an indispensable tool for digital photography that could help you improve on what you already caught with your lens, but without great lenses there will never be great photography.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  24. heartyfisher

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    @ mb : There are a couple more factors in "sharpness" (that I can think of at the moment .. there may be more ?) both are related to the sensor.
    3) The sensor resolution or pixel density. ie the number of pixels per milimeter
    4) The anti aliasing filter on the sensor that "blurs" the image so that we dont get the "Jaggies" as much.

    These result in a limit in the value of a super sharp lens as after a certain amount of resolving power of the lens it does not matter how sharp it is, the image is not going to get any sharper because that is as sharp a the sensor can produce.

    @ wilis : just for interest sake .. The pixel density of the D3x is about the same as the D90. so a lens that is sharp on a D90 will look just as sharp on the D3x if you pixel peep. However if a lens is not as sharp on a D90(ie the sensor out resolves the lens) is put on a D3 or D700 it will look sharper due to the lesser pixel density of the FF. (sorry just has to digress - just thought that it was a cool phenomenon that a weaker lens can look better on FX cf. DX)

    Posted 4 years ago #
  25. monty11

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    Thinking about this thread brought back a thought from a photo trip. I'm pretty sure it has been said before by loads of people and maybe even I had heard it somewhere but didn't just remember it.

    In a sense looking at a photograph is like listening to music, for argument's sake, let's take classical music. I'm sure many of you have people with learned hearing in your family or among your acquaintances. I'm not one of those, but I know some. The people with learned hearing can tell you from what they are hearing whether the source is mp3, CD, vinyl or DVD-audio and they can distinguish the separate instruments in the orchestra. Most probably they will have a hard time settling for low quality. Now ordinary people don't have a problem listening to a 128kbps web radio station and we can even enjoy it. Of course the ordinary John Doe can tell the difference between a 128kbps, CD and vinyl (well maybe everyone can't tell the difference between the latter two) when they are played one after the other, but not when they hear just one. Well the people with good mastered musical hearing can.

    Now this analogy can be equated with photography. For ordinary people a lot of photos have the WOW effect, they won't spot the flaws, lack/excess of sharpness, colours, etc. Some will be able to identify the better picture when two photos of different quality are placed side-by-side but not separately. When someone who has a lot of experience in photography looks at a photo, they will notice a lot more.

    Coming to the original issue of PS vs pro glass, it can be brought down to the points above. You don't see the difference or the point in selecting pro glass over PS as for you the results of either look the same i.e. compared to a pro photographer, your eye is not that trained and hence your standards for image quality are lower. If your heart is set on photography and seriously so, then I suggest you save this thread and read it again in several years. Trust me, your opinion will be changed as then your eye will see things a lot differently. Maybe you still won't see the justification in paying $2000 for a lens, but maybe you will. Bear in mind that there are people who will pay $30,000 for a Hasselblad camera because they value quality so dearly. Remember that Hasselblad "kit lenses" start at $6000.

    Basically this long rant boils down to your own standards. There is no universal right or wrong in this subject.

    @NSXType-R, I've seen you stress that you don't use PS at all several times, is there a reason for it?

    Posted 4 years ago #

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