Please help me choose the right DLSR for low light « Nikon Rumors Forum

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Please help me choose the right DLSR for low light

(14 posts) (8 voices)
  • Started 2 years ago by str8shooter
  • Latest reply from Drab
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  • Nikkor 18 - 105mm VR
  • nikon d90
  1. str8shooter

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    Joined: Sep '10
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    Hello. I'm looking for a body/glas to shoot:

    1. Night club. Some shots may be blown up for promos up to 3ft by 2ft. Shots of dancers and performers onstage. So, motion + bad light conditions.

    2. Food. For the restaurant website.

    I'm a hobby level but I'm very OCD and I take my hobbies very seriously. I'd rather spend a little more upfront and not have to upgrade in 6 months or sacrifice image quality to save a buck.

    Not interested in P&S whatsoever!

    My budget is around $1,500

    What are the pros using for these type of shots? who are they? (so I can learn from their work)...

    For disclosure purposes, I have done a ton of reading of similar posts on this forum, and some others, but they are generally over 4yrs old, mostly from people looking for P&S cams, or with smaller budget. Hence why I'm posting this hoping someone will offer some advice. If not, i'll just do what ken r says - buy the newest from Nikon or Cannon, which in this case would be the D7000!

    Thanks in advance!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. Jack the Ripper

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    Joined: Sep '10
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    With that budget for low light photography i would go with

    Nikon D7000 Body only - 1,200
    Nikkor 35mm 1.8 AF-S = $200.00
    Nikkor 50mm 1.8d AF = $100.00

    This will give you two focal lengths, 35 for a bit wider view, and 50mm to get in a little bit closer. And both of these lenses are rediculously good considering the price.

    this is in your budget, and so far the test shots with the D7000 at 6400 ISO look pretty good, combine them with the 1.8 Aperature on the two lenses and you have a killer low light combo. Also, this will be a very compact package, you wont be knocking things over with either of those lenses as they are both pretty small.

    Or you could substitute the D7000 with a D90 and save youself about $400 bucks which could be put towards one of Nikons speedlights, or you could even get an 85mm 1.8 lens to get a bit more reach.

    I shoot with the D90, while the D7000 looks better in many ways, that does not mean the D90 would not be perfectly capable of pulling that type of duty.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. aslightdelay

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    Welcome to the forum, str8shooter. This isn't going to be as far off-topic as it's going to look at first glance. :)

    Pick up last month's Popular Photography (not the one with the 60D on the cover, the one before it). There's a short article in there on a guy doing interior shots in a bar. Most of the article goes not into the lenses, but into the lighting. I know clubs and restaurants generally have "mood" (read: crap) lighting, but if you work things out with your client ahead of time, you may be able to set something up -- either with your equipment, or theirs -- to account for that. There's also a book from, I think, New Rider Press, that goes into concert shooting. I bring this up because, again, you're working with some of the same constraints (cramped conditions and quirky lighting).

    Given the role that fast glass will play in this, and taking your budget into account, I'd actually suggest you buy the 3100 (body only) once it hits the shops and spend the balance on good glass. The 7000 will offer similar high ISO/low light specs, but the body alone will set you back 1200, which won't leave much in the kitty for the kind of glass you're likely to need (unless you can get away with shooting the whole thing with either a 50 or a 35). There's also the minor wrinkle that the 7000 won't be out for another month at least, and depending on how many ship vs. an anticipated demand that's through the roof, it may be a month or two longer than that before you can get your hands on one.

    I'll leave the lens suggestions up to the experts, though if you've lurked as long or as thoroughly as you suggest, you likely already have a good idea of what you need on that front. :)

    Good luck!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. N1DQU

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    Well there is the D90 with the 18-105 kit lens. it has given me good results in low light with and without flash.
    (Downtown North Adams, Ma)
    Here is sample

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. Jack the Ripper

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    I like the photograph, but that is a stationary object and i suspect the shutter speed was a bit on the slow side, inside a club people are constantly moving, i dont think the 3.5-5.6 aperature would be fast enough.

    that aside, i picke dup one of those 18-105's a few days ago, i wanted a nice flexable lens for my D90 because my better glass will be going on the D7000 i have pre-ordered. The plastic mount sucks, but so far i really do like the lens and i really like the zoom range.

    i just wish they could make a 18-105 2.8 ED VR. lol

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. Super Shooter

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    From the samples I've seen it would seem that the D3100 has an advantage over the D7000 at high ISO.

    str8shooter said:
    1. Night club. Some shots may be blown up for promos up to 3ft by 2ft. Shots of dancers and performers onstage. So, motion + bad light conditions.

    This to me means you are going to be doing lots of cropping so in that case the D7000.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. speye_21

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    I shoot in the same conditions on a regular basis using my old D70s, but with faster motion as I cover dance events and competitions. Let me tell you, it's very, very, difficult. You definitely want a recent camera which handles noise well such as the D7000 or the D700.

    The key is getting a fast lens, a camera that handle luminance noise well, and always shoot in RAW mode because you'll need the extra color information in post when adjusting exposure. Chroma noise is easy to handle, so don't worry about it. The F1.8D 50mm is a good lens for this type of work, and it's conveniently cheap.

    One of the keys to shooting in low light is you need to control the shutter and aperture yourself. If you let the camera do it, you'll get a lot of undesired and unexpected results. For example, if you use the program mode (P), Nikon tends to favor raising ISO before adjusting shutter speed or aperture. On older cameras like my D70s, it has absolutely horrible unusable noise for anything shot above ISO 640. for some shots, simply opening the aperature one stop or slowing the shutter down would capture the image appropriately, but if left in program mode, the ISO will max out before shutter or aperture are adjusted resulting in needlessly noisy images. Better to under expose with clean ISO than to expose properly with a higher noisy ISO setting.

    Typically I start with aperture fully open at F1.8, set ISO at 400, then start with shutter speed around 1/100th of a second. I'll take about 30 or so warmup shots around the venue then view the results. If they're too dark, I slow the shutter down to 1/60th then raise the ISO to 640. If it's still too dark, I slow the shutter down a bit more. But that's as far as I go because you can brighten an image about 1.0 EV in post before it really starts to break down. At some point you have to limit motion blur - not just from people moving around, but also from your own body movement causing camera shake when you press the trigger. Practice breath control when shooting as it doesn't take much to ruin a shot.

    One of the first problems you'll run into is difficulty focusing. Many cameras use contrast detection to focus the image. In low light there isn't much contrast because there's less distinction between bright and dark. Manual focus will also be tough because the viewfinder will be too dark to see through in some cases. You'll have to train yourself to pay attention to small areas of contrast in the frame (such as the rim/silhouette edges of a person) to obtain a focal target to compose your shots. I've lost many shots because my camera's autofocus was fooled into focusing on the wrong details or was in the middle of re-focusing when I wanted to pull the trigger. One strategy is to zoom out / stand a little further from your subject so you can focus on a constrasty part of the frame for focus, then crop in post so you get the composition.

    Another problem with low light is small depth of field. At F1.8 in low light, you're looking at a depth of field of only a few inches at most. So your focus has to be spot on to get a quality shot. Otherwise get real familiar with your unsharp mask tool in your favorite photo editing software. Make sure the subject of attention is the focal point. In the case of dancers, it usually means only the guy or the girl gets in focus while the other is slightly blurry. If you aim for the shoulder to get contrast, it's possible the face will be out of focus if the dancer is leaning directly towards or away from the camera.

    As for color - low light shots tend to come out over saturated and too red/orange. i frequently have to de-saturate and adjust the color temperature. I've tried ajusting white balance in camera as well as post. In post seems to be less hassle.

    Finally, one of the perks of shooting low light is interesting light and color interaction. Using a flash tends to wash all this away and creating boring shots. So try to go flashless if possible and pay attention to shadow as well as light. going flashless will also provide more freedom to move around as you won't be announcing your position with each shot. Dancers tend to tighten up in the presence of cameras (go figure) as they feel like they have to perform for an audience rather than just have fun dancing. Shooting incognito gives you access to those nice unscripted nuances.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. jonnyapple

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    Whatever you decide budget some money for good software. The noise reduction in Lightroom 3 will make the images from whatever camera you're using a whole lot better. Google lightroom 3 noise reduction for some samples.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. str8shooter

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    Wow... Thanks everyone!!!

    I think the D7000 is it - wooohooo!!!
    Plus 35MM 1.8 AF-s.

    Quick question on the 50mm 1.8- if I order the 1.4 instead is this still a good combo w/the 35mm 1.8 or am I getting two dogs that do the same trick?

    Question #2- I was thinking of getting the 70-300 vr to shoot the performers on stage from the back of the room (distance wise it's about half the size of a basket ball court between shooter and stage, maybe slightly farther). is this the right lens?

    and I am definitely looking up that article and book mentioned above. hopefully it'll take my mind off the w...a...i...t...i...n...g.....
    I feel like a kid waiting to open presents on x-mas day! but hopefully my camera will get here before then!

    waitingshooter-

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. aslightdelay

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    Looked up the book. It's Three Songs, No Flash!: Your Ultimate Guide to Concert Photography, by Loe Beerens. Rocky Nook, not New Rider.

    Enjoy the camera!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. speye_21

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    Quick question on the 50mm 1.8- if I order the 1.4 instead is this still a good combo w/the 35mm 1.8 or am I getting two dogs that do the same trick?

    Keep in mind the D7000 has a magnification factor of 1.5x. So the 50 mm actually behaves like a 75 mm, and the 35 mm behaves like a 52.5 mm lens. One problem I have with the 50 mm is that I have to stand about 20-25 feet away from my subjects to fit them in the frame. sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad. Depends on what you shoot. figure out what you'll be shooting and where you'll be standing when you take those shots. That should answer the question best.

    No, they do not do the same trick because of the magnification differences. Also, just because the speed of the lens is F1.4 (35mm) vs. F1.8 (50mm) doesn't mean those are usable F-stops for all purposes. Usually you have to use a slightly higher F-stop to get decent sharpness and lessen chromatic aberration. then there's the subjective differences for things like 'bokeh' which is the look of the out of focus parts of the image. Each lens has a different 'look' in this regard. Try them out and see for your self.

    Question #2- I was thinking of getting the 70-300 vr to shoot the performers on stage from the back of the room (distance wise it's about half the size of a basket ball court between shooter and stage, maybe slightly farther). is this the right lens?

    the lens may work for places like theaters and concert venues, but is probably too slow for a restaurant/dance bar as their lighting systems are fairly low powered in comparison. You'll have your hands full trying to get good shots with the F1.8 50 mm.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. Drab

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    Yea, for bar lighting the 70-300 is dog slow.
    Depending on the reach you need, the 85 f/1.8 or 80-200 f/2.8 are your most affordable options. (and of course the options go up in price from there)

    IMHO there is no point in talking about "the right DLSR for low light" and the 70-300 in the same sentence.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. jonnyapple

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    Drab said:
    IMHO there is no point in talking about "the right DLSR for low light" and the 70-300 in the same sentence.

    :-)

    +1 on the 85 1.8 recommendation if you're across the room.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. Drab

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    (regarding the 70-300)

    speye_21 said:
    the lens may work for places like theaters and concert venues, but is probably too slow for a restaurant/dance bar as their lighting systems are fairly low powered in comparison. You'll have your hands full trying to get good shots with the F1.8 50 mm.

    I'll poll some of my metadata if you want, but IIRC ISO 1600 + f/5.6 (300mm end of lens) = ~ 1/30th shutter speed at best in the last "theater" type situation I was in.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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