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Expensive Fast Lenses Really Better ?

(75 posts) (21 voices)
  • Started 2 years ago by Paperman
  • Latest reply from Segura
  • Related Topics:
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    3. Prime lens for Nikon D5000
    4. Everyday lens with a D5000 (Or Any DX Camera)?
    5. 16-85 vs kit 18-55

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  • expensive lens
  • kit lens
  • prime lens
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  1. ShadeofBlue

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    One problem is that "sharpness" is not a well defined term, it's actually a combination of several effects, and in fact involves more than just the lens. First of all, a lens with high contrast will look "sharper" than one with low contrast, even if it has the same resolution. This is why you cannot just look at numbers, there is no way to say what lens is sharpest without looking at sample photos, or preferably by using it yourself in real life shooting conditions. Then there's also the fact that motion blur is lessened with faster lens, which will also increase the sharpness.

    Finally, with digital cameras, the strength of the anti-aliasing filter comes into play. Unprocessed, photos taken with a camera that has stronger anti-aliasing filter will look softer, even with the same lens. And then you can start talking about ISO. Images taken at high ISO will look less sharp than at low ISO, even if you don't blur the image to get rid of noise since you will lose contrast. Again, resolution numbers will not tell you this.

    That being said, modern lenses are all pretty much sharp under ideal conditions, so using a kit lens for amateur landscapes shouldn't be a problem, at least in that regard.

    The reason you aren't getting the discussion you want is because it is a pointless debate. Resolution just isn't an issue nowadays, and if you are just going to compare the numbers between your equipment, you're probably better off going Canon; they have more megapixels.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. Paperman

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    " ...it is a pointless debate. Resolution just isn't an issue nowadays"

    Seriously Shadeofblue , have you ever looked at a lens test recently ??

    In tests ,there are only a handful of properties that are used to determine the quality of a lens , and resolution ( in lw or lp ) always comes on top with CA ( the others being distortions and vignetting - both solved easily on PC ).

    And all tests are done keeping all variables like light conditions,ISO levels,sensors etc the same. It would be pointless testing one lens on a D3 (or D300) and the other on a D3000 .

    And yes , the contrast also is controlled - that is exacly how MTF tests work. It is a complicated subject but in short I can say the line count only under a certain contrast ratio is tested .

    So what you see in tests is what you get . There is no way you can make these comparasions by eye trusting your own judgement.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. sselemit

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    Paperman, I DID know that sharpness is your main debate. From the beginning, in your head, you keep thinking that "pro" lenses have to be sharper then "kit" lens. You are WRONG! That's your incorrect ASSUMPTION. Expensiveness is not determined solely by the sharpness. It is determined by ALL the aspects of a lens.

    I have a Lexus and a Corolla. Their max speed is 120 mph but why is one more expensive than the other? I know why, do you know why?

    To answer your corrected question: "Expensive Fast lenses really sharper?" Against your lens, might be not. Against other "kit" lenses, might be.

    People like you make Nikon and Pro lens users like me happy. I'm sure you know why.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. heartyfisher

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    Now now boys :-) Play nice .. LOL

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. Paperman

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    Guys, I realize I've wasted my years using cheap kit and prime lenses.

    Please let me know if any of you are selling your :

    Nikon 17-35 f2.8D IF-ED
    Nikon 70-210 f2.8D AF-S lenses

    Price not important , I'll pay anything ....I want to take photos like a pro from now on.

    There you go , happy ? ....

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. miatadan

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    Paperman, glad to meet you here. I read all the these posts. I agree with you that for how you are using lenses in landscaping there is not enough difference in sharpness to pay for Pro glass.

    Right now I have only the 35mm AF-S DX F1.8 as it is closest to normal focal length in DX cameras. My first camera was a Pentax K1000 when in high school ( 1976 ). I learned to make most of focal length 50mm as they were faster and better constructed than zoom lenses during 1970s early 1980s. Sharpness is important for me too but since I take most pictures without flash and a lot of indoor stuff, I have to consider speed of lenses + AF speed in not idea situations.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. ShadeofBlue

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    I'm not sure what you want out of this thread. We all agree with you that for your situation, your kit lens will produce sharp images. Heck, most of us are just shooting with our 35 f/1.8 lenses, anyway, and don't even own pro lenses. I don't, anyway. Stop worrying about gear and just shoot photos until you find yourself to be restricted in some way. And even then, make sure it really is the gear that is restricting you and not something else.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. Paperman

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    Nice meeting you too Mlatadan . Finally some understanding - not surprisingly from my age group. I started with a Russian Zenit,then a Petri ( who ? ) and made the big jump in final year of high school to Minolta XD7 - which I used for 18 years ( can you believe it ? )till 1998 when I switched to Nikon. I have the 50mm f1.8D which I hardly find any use for as it is not suitable for landscapes. And I have the 28mm f2.8D which I really like it as it almost gives me - like you indicated - a feeling of the old days.
    Probably more than 80% of my shots are in the 18-25mm range and I have no cheap prime options there so I hang on to my 18-135mm that came with my old D80 until I find something which will give me better results.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. ShadeofBlue

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    Paperman said:
    Probably more than 80% of my shots are in the 18-25mm range and I have no cheap prime options there so I hang on to my 18-135mm that came with my old D80 until I find something which will give me better results.

    Okay, so you aren't happy with the results of your kit lens then?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. Paperman

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    Looking for perfection ...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. kyoshinikon

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    I did and and it's called the 17-35mm f2.8 :P

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. Paperman

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    With that $1800 ,I'm better off to switch to D700 . Then my 28mm prime becomes real 28 ( instead of 42 on DX ) and I have my wide angle solution.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. ShadeofBlue

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    So what has made you decide that your lens is what is restricting you from attaining perfection? You have clearly pointed out that its resolution is comparable to Pro lenses.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. Paperman

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    I was always under the assumption that pro lenses would be sharper than a cheap kit zoom - I never even doubted it .I guess I can't be blamed for assuming a $2000 lens being better in resolution than a very wide to tele 18-135mm zoom ; they had to better in every aspect to worth so much. Since I had never remotely thought about paying so much for a lens ,I never bothered to check their resolution tests .

    Recently, I decided to have a go at them and started reading and found out about the resolution results . I was surprised and I'm sure some of you here - who probably will never admit it but - were surprised as well .

    In all your honesty , if you say that you always knew a $300-400 wide to tele kit zoom could be sharper than a $1800 pro lens like 17-35 f2.8D , I'll just say bravo to you ...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. kyoshinikon

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    I didn't have the assumption I actually tried one and tested it and found minor things that I liked about the lens plus I never owned a wide nikkor prime. I love the Sharpness my 50mm 1.8 has and was happy to find that in a zoom lens. Numbers didn't prove anything because I don't care about technical quality, I just care about the details in the final print which many of my clients notice.

    The 18-70mm and 18-135mm are sharp lenses and more than enough for most people but my work requires a wider f-stop and sharpness at a wider f-stop. At F8 my 18-70mm and 17-35mm are indistinguishable but at the widest opening the difference is noticeable. The sharpness that the 17-35mm or any fast nikkor prime has isn't so much about blurriness as it is about the range of tonality which can define a edge. Faster lenses usually define subtle tones and colors better than the slower ones. Also faster lenses seem to handle better in awful lighting situations because they do handle tone better whereas Ive noticed that the slower lenses I've tried are more likely to ghost and cause chromatic doubles and other problems. In most cases it is fine but I trust my observations as I've been doing this for a good amount of time. Whether you feel it is worth it or not is completely your own decision and you probably don't have these problems I'm referring to.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. miatadan

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    kyoshinikon, I really like how you describe the differences in faster lenses compared to the slower lenses. Right now I have the Nikkor 35mm AF-S DX F1.8 but will replace it with the 35mm AF-S FX F1.4 when ever it is released as in long term will go to FX body. Really wish I could afford the new 24mm AF-S lense that came out earlier this year.
    Actually considering new 16-35mm AF-S F4 but concerned it is too slow for low light scenes and the VR really does help.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. proudgeek

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    Stumbled across this a few days ago and couldn't resist putting in my two cents worth. In a way this kind of thread is what makes forums like this both awesome (wide ranging POVs) and silly (endless debates over minutia).
    For what it's worth, I try not to look at lens tests. Not being an optical engineer or a mathematician I have a hard time figuring out what those red and blue lines mean. But like most of you, I don't use my camera under controlled circumstances. I take it outside and shoot in the real world where pretty much everything is out of my control. The only test I really care about is the "holy s*&t" test. If I shoot something, take a look at it on my big monitor and I say "holy s*&t" then it passes. If a lens or camera can help me do that more than not then it's a useful piece of equipment.
    Let's not forget that cameras are nothing more than dumb computers that are really good at math, and lenses are nothing more than inert pieces of glass with some variability in the amount of light they let hit the sensor. Most everything else is human error. Some of the crappiest pictures I've ever taken are the ones where I tried to think too much and show off how many of the gizmos on my camera I could use at once. And some of my best shots have been taken with a D40 and a kit lens.
    Perfect example: I'm a freelance writer, pretty highly compensated at that and have been for 20 years. I buy a new Mac every three years or so. Does each purchase make me a better, more creative writer? Of course not. Does it make my workflow more efficient (more hard drive space, faster processor, better applications, etc.)? Yes.
    Cameras and lenses are very similar. Will a faster (and more expensive lens) allow me to do more? Sure. When I bought my 105 macro I went out in the backyard and shot for an hour then came in and uploaded images and nearly soiled myself I was so happy. When I traded my D40 for a D90 did I notice a difference? Sure. But they're just tools. Technology doesn't take the pictures for you. When it does the best shooters will be the ones willing to spend the most money on their gear. We know that's not the case.
    Bottom line is tests are tests and generate numbers. Does better stuff make you a better photographer? Maybe it makes you feel like you're better (and maybe that's half the battle)? But maybe having a few more tools creates some additional possibilities.
    Sorry for the rambling rant.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. Paperman

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    The discussion sort of continued here

    http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=3223

    on a lot milder manner ( until someone got aggressive and caused the topic to be closed.) I would say the second/above discussion was more meaningful/helpful in the sense that the expensive glass and the sensor size which it was on was discussed as a whole - the only reason I started a similar discussion after 7 months .

    I will admit comparing them without looking at on which sensor size/Mp they are used does not make sense . While a pro lens may not make a difference in sharpness on a D90/D300 even on a D700 ( judging solely on test results ), it will make remarkable improvement on a 24Mp FF D3x.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. studio460

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    proudgeek said:
    Perfect example: I'm a freelance writer, pretty highly compensated at that and have been for 20 years. I buy a new Mac every three years or so. Does each purchase make me a better, more creative writer? Of course not. Does it make my workflow more efficient (more hard drive space, faster processor, better applications, etc.? Yes.

    I appreciate your point of view; however, I'm not sure of the relevancy of your example. I used to write for a living too. But a new processor, or greater memory won't bring a whole new dimension to your writing, whereas a photographer with only a 50mm lens who buys a 14mm wide-angle, does enter a new world of creative possibility.

    Recently, I started acquiring a number of new and used Nikon lenses. I have expensive Nikon lenses that are soft. I have cheap Nikon lenses that are tack-sharp. Price is no determinant of sharpness; though it's typically indicative of its speed. No one ever said that fast, expensive glass is necessarily sharper than inexpensive glass. I'm no optics expert either, but here's what I've gathered through my past photo instructors, books on optics, and first-hand observations:

    Fast glass:
    More difficult to design.
    Susceptible to more optical imperfections.
    Requires larger elements, requiring more glass, resulting in more dispersion.
    Expensive.

    Cheap glass:
    Less glass, with smaller elements, means less dispersion.
    Typically, slower maximum aperture.
    Smaller maximum aperture, and low amount of glass, often contribute to higher degree of acutance.
    Slow.

    proudgeek said:
    Bottom line is tests are tests and generate numbers.

    What's wrong with using empirical data to assist in pre-purchase lens evaluations?

    proudgeek said:
    Does better stuff make you a better photographer?

    No, but good gear can make your work product "better," at least technically. And, like it or not, photography is a technically based art. This falls under the, "ignore the numbers, and just go out and shoot," mantra, which I understand, but disagree with. I think it's worth any photographer's time, amateur or pro, to test each lens upon purchase. Any craftsman or technician needs to be assured that their tools are accurately calibrated and are performing within the manufacturer's specifications. My point is, you don't want to waste time, energy and expense, producing images with under-performing, or sub-standard tools. Performing an acutance test on any new lens purchase should be part of any photographer's routine.

    In answer to the original OP's topic question, "Are expensive fast lenses really better?" The only thing expensive fast lenses are, necessarily, are just that: expensive and fast.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. Segura

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    @studio460 -

    Fast glass:
    More difficult to design - Optical designs have been used for years, and the formulas are down pat. Computers make the designing much easier to design, that is why the current generation of fast primes have more elements. In the 85mm, why did Nikon go from 9 Elements/8 Groups to 10E/9G. They could have just added AF-S and been done with it. I believe that some of the cheaper zooms are more difficult to design. Look at the 18-200mm VR, 16 Elements in 12 Groups. I think you got this one wrong.

    Susceptible to more optical imperfections - true, but the optical imperfections are negated by scale. Let's say you have a 1mm mark. On a pro FX lens, 1mm is small, but on a cheap DX zoom, 1mm takes up 3-4x the glass real estate it would, so the imperfection is actually compounded on smaller, cheaper glass. A fingerprint on an 85mm FX prime will distort less than if it was on an 18-55mm DX. Do this test yourself.

    Requires larger elements, requiring more glass, resulting in more dispersion - Fast glass is built to higher standards using ED (extra low dispersion) elements to reduce dispersion, while cheap glass is not. The Nano coating takes this up a notch as well on the pro lenses. Dispersion = chromatic aberrations. So compare the 18-55mm DX lens (cheap) to a 35mm DX lens and you will see at wide open, the 18-55mm has red at .05% and blue at .1% of half picture width. The 35mm is red .04% and blue @ .03%. Much closer together and closer to 0% = less dispersion. In this case the cheaper glass was actually worse. Check preview.com lens tests for references.
    18-200mm @ 18mm RED=.14% BLUE=.3% (high dispersion)
    18-200mm @ 200mm RED=.05% BLUE=.16% (high dispersion)
    50mm 1.4G RED=.01% BLUE=.01%

    Expensive - What is expensive to you may not be expensive to me ;)

    Cheap glass:
    Less glass, with smaller elements, means less dispersion - see above, I think this is actually the opposite (dispersion). Cheap lenses are also made with cheaper glass too, keep that in mind. I agree with less glass (sometimes, except when you need 16 elements)

    Typically, slower maximum aperture - absolutely.

    Smaller maximum aperture, and low amount of glass, often contribute to higher degree of acutance - Any science to back this opinion up?

    Slow - Painfully slow for some people . . .

    Pro lenses are built to a certain level or precision as well, whereas cheap glass may not be built to the same tolerances, which may impact a picture. Every lens is different. Some pro lenses can be soft. If so, send it in to get repaired. No reason to keep a soft lens. And some cheap lenses may be sharp. But more often than not, the pro lenses beat the cheap ones due to much of what I put in this post. Test it yourself at a camera shop . . . and stop spreading mis-information.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. studio460

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    Segura said:
    So compare the 18-55mm DX lens (cheap) to a 35mm DX lens and you will see at wide open, the 18-55mm has red at .05% and blue at .1% of half picture width. The 35mm is red .04% and blue @ .03%. Much closer together and closer to 0% = less dispersion. In this case the cheaper glass was actually worse.

    Try that test on the AF Nikkor 35mm f/2.0D, and I bet it's even worse.

    Segura said:
    Check preview.com lens tests for references.
    50mm 1.4G RED=.01% BLUE=.01%

    And, how many copies did they test? You should know that data taken from a sample of one is virtually meaningless. While the CA on that particular copy may have been spot-on, at least two members here have reported the AF-S 50mm f/1.4G as being soft, as well as my own Nikon dealer reporting several returns from customers complaining the same.

    Segura said:
    But more often than not, the pro lenses beat the cheap ones due to much of what I put in this post. Test it yourself at a camera shop . . . and stop spreading mis-information.

    I have tested. Sure, the newest, Nano-coated, chock-full-of-ED-glass lenses may more often than not, be far superior to cheap kit zooms, but taking into consideration the entire universe of older (including ED lenses), AI-S, and D lenses, including new, current-production D lenses, there's a lot of other glass to consider.

    Segura said:
    Smaller maximum aperture, and low amount of glass, often contribute to higher degree of acutance - Any science to back this opinion up?

    Generally speaking, I stand by my comments. My statements are backed by first-hand observation, vague memories of 20-year-old photography class lectures, and some stupid optics textbook I have in the garage somewhere (which I have no plans on finding anytime soon, unless it's on top of my ski stuff. Goin' skiing Sunday--woohoo!). If I stumble on the class notes, or find the reference in the text, you'll be the first to know.

    You do make some valid points; however, my goal was to simply comment on the fact that just because a lens is expensive, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily sharper than its more economical brethren. Also, forget about relying solely on third-party data--every photographer should test their lenses for themselves--I'm just saying (because, there may be some surprises).

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. Segura

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    studio460 said:
    Try that test on the AF Nikkor 35mm f/2.0D, and I bet it's even worse.

    On a DX body, probably not. It might do better than the 35mm DX since it is not using the edge/corners of the glass. I'll take that bet. Point is either of those two lenses are optically better than the 18-55mm lens.

    studio460 said:
    And, how many copies did they test? You should know that data taken from a sample of one is virtually meaningless. While the CA on that particular copy may have been spot-on, at least two members here have reported the AF-S 50mm f/1.4G as being soft, as well as my own Nikon dealer reporting several returns from customers complaining the same.

    It doesn't say, but whatever lens they tested with seemed dead on. At least they came up with numbers and measurements, whereas "softness" is based on interpretation.

    studio460 said:
    Generally speaking, I stand by my comments. My statements are backed by first-hand observation, vague memories of 20-year-old photography class lectures, and some stupid optics textbook I have in the garage somewhere (which I have no plans on finding anytime soon, unless it's on top of my ski stuff. Goin' skiing Sunday--woohoo!). If I stumble on the class notes, or find the reference in the text, you'll be the first to know.

    Well it is kinda hard for the dpreview data and measurements to beat your vague memories of class ;)
    Lots have changed in 20 years . . .

    studio460 said:
    You do make some valid points; however, my goal was to simply comment on the fact that just because a lens is expensive, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily sharper than its more economical brethren. Also, forget about relying solely on third-party data--every photographer should test their lenses for themselves--I'm just saying (because, there may be some surprises).

    Lenses can be out of whack and have discrepancies, if they were always perfect, Nikon wouldn't have put AF Fine Tune in the higher end bodies.
    Also sharpness can be measured, take a look at http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/nikon_50_1p4g_n15/page4.asp

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. studio460

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    I'm done. You win! Kill this thread NOW!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. spraynpray

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    The way I see it is Nikon wouldn't sell their cameras with horrid lenses as kits, pro glass is best but there are bargains around in the cheaper glass too.

    This AF fine tune facility - it needs to remember the lens requirements when the lens is fitted - does it? If not why not?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. Segura

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    The D700 was sold with the 24-120mm VR (not the new f/4 one) lens and that was horrible . . .

    The AF Fine Tune does remember the lenses that are used, as well as a master one for body correction.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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