Nikon Concept Camera = EVIL At Photokina « Nikon Rumors Forum

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Nikon Concept Camera = EVIL At Photokina

(94 posts) (16 voices)
  • Started 2 years ago by NikoDoby
  • Latest reply from aslightdelay
  • Related Topics:
    1. Sony NEX7 Versus Nikon 'X810' (NEX 7 Discussions)
    2. (Nikon V1 and J1- Mirrorless Camera Discussion)
    3. Save The Reflex Mirror?
    4. What Features Do You Want In Nikon's EVIL Camera?
    5. HD 4K Camera Concept

Tags:

  • Concept Camera
  • EVIL
  • Mirrorless
  • Photokina 2010
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  1. jonnyapple

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    So I got out a pen and paper and I've now convinced myself that in principle the retrofocus element can be after the lens, but I still don't know if every lens would need its own adaptor or if it could even be done in practice. ('in principle'=a physicist's favorite words.)

    Rob, just when I thought we were agreeing on this... Niko said what I would have said (and so did you, actually, in the post just before mine).
    I'm still convinced there's got to be a practical reason they put the retrofocus group on the front of lenses. Space constraints?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. PB PM

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    Some of the longer telephoto lenses focus with the rear element though, but nothing with focal ranges under 300mm if I recall correctly.

    Maybe the reason the focusing is mostly done via the front has to do with magnification, or the aperture? Frankly, I'm not an expert on optics, not even in the slightest.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. NikoDoby

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    I'm backing up Johnny as there are no "TC" adapters to mount NEX lenses on Alpha cameras etc.

    Anyway a new "translation" of Nikon's new Prez Makoto Kimura's interview with Japanese media gives some more interesting quotes about this future camera.

    Kimura is quoted as saying that while manufacturers of new camera systems may intend to take a share of the DSLR market, Nikon intends to retain its 'top position' in the DSLR category, while creating an 'entirely new domain'

    New domain? So can a Nikon EVIL camera be considered a new domain? I'm kind of wondering now.

    Pen News Weekly quotes Kimura as telling reporters: 'It will be a camera that may take photos of the world that the traditional SLR cannot reach.

    Takes photos that a traditional SLR can't? Hmm

    'Nowadays digital cameras take movies, performance of cameraphones is rapidly advancing and demand for simple movie cameras for uploading video on the internet is on the rise. Redefinition of photography may become necessary.'

    Wow this new camera will redefine photography?!? That's a pretty bold statement. So now I'm thinking this new "concept" camera won't be a mirrorless compact but something else perhaps?

    Whatever it is it's got Nikon's new Prez excited. Or maybe he's just trying to make a coffee can sound like a large Taiko drum?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. jonnyapple

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    I'm intrigued to know what he's talking about, too. I guess we just wait.

    TH implied that the 17mm image circle on the lens patents Nikon has filed may just be a smokescreen. That could be true because the dimensions can just be scaled arbitrarily. Won't I feel like a donkey with my NEX-5 when Nikon releases a mirrorless FX camera? ;-)

    You know my Sony would be listed for sale the day of the announcement.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. shivaswrath

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    PB PM said:
    Bingo jonny, it is a one way ticket for backwards comparability, which I might add has always been something Nikon has bragged about.

    hope they keep the bragging rights up!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. PB PM

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    I'm starting to get the feeling this new camera may not even be a still camera. Maybe it is a Nikon video camera with an F-Mount?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. studio460

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    PB PM said:
    I'm starting to get the feeling this new camera may not even be a still camera. Maybe it is a Nikon video camera with an F-Mount?

    I've been too timid to let myself believe this, but I am (wishfully), in tepid agreement. If Nikon actually made a DX- or FX-sensored, 1080p24 video camera that accepted F-mount lenses directly, I would pee my pants with joy. Nikon should be poised to develop a RED-killer type product, or at least, a competing product to the announced, Panasonic AG-AF100. Note that there are tons of people that put Nikkor glass on their RED ONE cameras, using the $500 F-mount adapter from RED. And those filmmakers that already own any amount of Nikon glass, but didn't pony up the $17,500 for a RED ONE body (plus the other $10,000 for the necessary RED accessories), I'm sure, would be just as ready to buy such a product (priced within a range of say, $2,000-$6,000 USD), with similar capabilities.

    But I know that considerable engineering resources are required to develop an efficient CODEC for high-quality recording--this is most likely Nikon's greatest stumbling block in developing such a product (and one of Panasonic's greatest competitive advantages, thanks to their long involvement in AVC-based CODEC development for their broadcast products).

    Unfortunately, Nikon appears to be too far-skewed toward their consumer market for our tastes, and, as others here have already alluded, Nikon's new EVIL product is more likely, a smaller-than-DX, "CES" kind of "gee whiz" consumer-oriented product instead. And, most worrisome to me, was all the talk about, "simple movie cameras for uploading video" to the web (Nikon "flip?" Really?), and even just the mere mention of the word, "cameraphones," :::shudder::: was enough to scare the begeesus outta me. Simply because those words tend to imply a more "consumer-ey" type of product development strategy, where the emphasis is on "new technology," rather than improvements in image quality, or a vision for a new type of high-quality imaging system.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. NikoDoby

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    I think video is definitely part of the "Redefinition of photography" but the use of the word "cameraphones" also points to a "small" product.

    So am thinking it'll be a COOLPIX p&s that can shoot 4K video or something like that and allows you to take stills later after you've already shot video. Sharing videos instantly on the internet is also a sure bet, I think. Youtube recently said they now support 4K video uploads.

    However you don't compare a point & shoot to a DSLR right? So a camera being able to go where DSLRs can't to me means interchangeable lenses or perhaps a mirrorless DSLR? Or what if Nikon uses the D90 replacement as it's first 4K video camera?! There was already a rumor that Nikon had a "large" group of engineers solely dedicated to working on codecs and RAW video.

    Dang if a COOLPIX comes out with 4K video before a Nikon DSLR has 1080p then we're going to get flooded with video guys crying all over this place! So what if Nikon jumps over 1080 altogether and goes straight to 4K?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. studio460

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    NikoDoby said:
    However you don't compare a point & shoot to a DSLR right? So a camera being able to go where DSLRs can't to me means interchangeable lenses or perhaps a mirrorless DSLR?

    Yes, I agree that the Nikon president's comments were confusing. What was his audience? Was this to the general press or stockholders ("stakeholders")? I think his statements were so overly broad and generalized, they only managed to communicate a vague and contradictory message. Prudent, for protecting new product roll-outs from competitors, but frustrating, nonetheless, for us. However, these kinds of sweeping statements are typical of high-level, executive-speak. Like I said, it's going to be a looooong summer . . .

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. NikoDoby

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    He was speaking to JPEA International (Pen News Weekly). They are a Japanese photo and imaging news publication. I'm sure whatever it is, not everyone will be happy (as usual).

    However we aren't alone in waiting. The canon kids are also going crazy waiting for canon's long rumored cameras the 1DsMk4 and 60D, both have been expected since last summer. Then fall, then spring, then summer 2010 and still nothing for them too. There was suppose to be a canon announcement today/tonight but it looks like that's not gonna happen and the new announcement date rumor is for August.

    I guess Nikon and canon are too busy counting money to want to update their line up yet.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. astrophotographer

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    jonnyapple said:

    TH implied that the 17mm image circle on the lens patents Nikon has filed may just be a smokescreen. That could be true because the dimensions can just be scaled arbitrarily.

    Well, not exactly. Scale the lens and you'll scale the aberrations with it. The acceptable resolution of say a 18 mm lens may not be acceptable scaled 2.5x.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. NikoDoby

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    Wouldn't the crop actually be 2.7X according to the patents?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. jonnyapple

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    Is that true, astro? It seems like, as you're saying, if you took a lens made for a 17mm image circle and could somehow enlarge everything that the focal length would change, too, and the aberrations would grow with the lens. But to me it seems that if you increase the size of the design before production, you can also keep the engineering tolerances in grinding the lens the same as for the smaller lens and actually get better performance (at the cost of price and weight, of course). It isn't like a teleconverter that's magnifying the image created by a lens; it's a matter of actually increasing the size of the lens. You may be right; I'm just thinking out loud.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. NikoDoby

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    And are the patents for a 17mm diameter circle or is it 17mm diagonal of the sensor? If the sensor has a 17mm diagonal then the actual imaging area would actually be even smaller.

    I'm confusing myself now...thanks a lot Jonny "goldilocks" apple :^(

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. NikoDoby

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    Oh and by the way I think I found what the Nikon EVIL lenses would look like on an Fmount adapter :^)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. astrophotographer

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    jonnyapple said:
    Is that true, astro? It seems like, as you're saying, if you took a lens made for a 17mm image circle and could somehow enlarge everything that the focal length would change, too, and the aberrations would grow with the lens. But to me it seems that if you increase the size of the design before production, you can also keep the engineering tolerances in grinding the lens the same as for the smaller lens and actually get better performance (at the cost of price and weight, of course). It isn't like a teleconverter that's magnifying the image created by a lens; it's a matter of actually increasing the size of the lens. You may be right; I'm just thinking out loud.

    Yes it's pretty much true. The aberrations of interest such as spherical or chromatic are geometric. Even before the lens is made aberrations are calculated from the geometry of the lenses. If the total aberration is less than the diffraction limit that's an excellent lens.

    For TCs, if you look at MFTs for them they are worse. But a 1.4x or 2x is not that bad. And the TC will use the central portion of the lens' image so the poorer border sharpness of a typical lens is off the image.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. astrophotographer

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    NikoDoby said:
    Wouldn't the crop actually be 2.7X according to the patents?

    How 'bout we split the difference and call it 2.6x?

    I thought the diagonal of a 35mm frame is ~43.25mm. So I get 2.54x.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. jonnyapple

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    That makes sense, then, astro. Thanks.

    Niko, both your statements are right. You want an imaging circle at least as big as the sensor diagonal.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. NikoDoby

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    Yes I know but just because the sensor is 17mm doesn't mean that the image circle projected onto it can't be smaller. Hence the 2.7 or 2.9 crop factor. I thought one of the patents showed a 1" sensor which would make it 16mm image circle and that would mean 2.7x. Right?

    The m4/3rd sensor for example is 18 mm × 13.5 mm (22.5 mm diagonal), with an imaging area of 17.3 mm × 13.0 mm (21.6 mm diagonal).

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. astrophotographer

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    Hmm... I just read Thom Hogan's Blog entry on the lens patents for EVIL. He's got a point I didn't think about. In the other direction, that is designing a larger lens then scaling it down for the patent. The features that are patented would be valid.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. astrophotographer

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    All the patents I saw were specific about a 17mm image height.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. NikoDoby

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    But a 1" sensor can still fit inside that 17mm which would give a higher crop, right? Or what if Nikon uses a m4/3rd sensor but their own smaller lenses though I don't think that would make a lot of sense or would it?

    Let's just hope the smaller than m4/3rd Nikon sensor is just a "smokescreen".

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. jonnyapple

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    I would like nothing more than a mirrorless FF Nikon that does video like the Sony nex. Let's hope...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. NikoDoby

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    The thing about a full frame EVIL is that it would be expensive! And such a camera wouldn't be geared towards the "amateur" COOLPIX crowd which I think this "concept camera" will be. If it were to be a "pro" camera then it would probably be priced between the D3 and D3X. Although it would still be cheaper than the Leica M9. But if it also did HD video, wow that would be a "game changer" wouldn't it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. PB PM

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    A real game changer would be a mirror-less full frame for less than the D700.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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