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I Am Being Tempted By EVIL

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NikoDoby

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I got to use an Olympus E-PL1 EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) camera and my wife has really fallen for it. Now she wants one. I have to admit it is a nice "little" camera and I like it too despite a few annoying things.

I'm eagerly awaiting the new Sony EVIL camera though (announcement expected this month) and if the picture quality is there then I might pull the trigger and get her one but I really want to wait for Nikon's EVIL version. Even if it's a COOLPIX.

I really don't like the idea of buying into yet another lens mount (M4/3rds, new Sony mount or a totally new group of Nikon lenses) but after using the M4/3rd lenses I really do like the smaller package. The D700 feels like a big cargo van doing laps around the racetrack while the Olympus feels like a sporty little family sedan.

Anyway I really do see these types of cameras taking over the high-end point&shoot and the low-end DSLR segments. Once faster AF becomes a reality on EVIL cameras then buying a bigger bulkier DSLR and lenses won't seem like a good idea.

Should I be concerned about my EVIL thoughts? What can I do to cleanse these temptations and make myself a better Nikon owner?

Posted 3 years ago #
NSXType-R

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For one thing, you can stop making so many threads on the same topic. :D

If you think you can afford it, then go for it. There's nothing wrong with using anything other than Nikons.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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OH yeah as if there aren't enough "should I buy a D90 now or wait" or "When is Nikon going to have a better video" or my always favorite "Is the 35mm f1.8 a good lens or should I buy the 18-200?" threads.

Beside I'm sure a moderator can step-in and close this if this question has already been asked before :^P

NSXType-R said:
There's nothing wrong with using anything other than Nikons.

What a silly idea. That's like buying a Honda AND a Toyota. Now that would be stupid. Everyone knows you can only buy one brand at a time. Besides if I switched to another brand I'd have to quit all of you :^)

But seriously have you tried using one of these cameras NSX? They really are the future I think and their sales numbers pretty much confirm that. Just look at Panasonic. They jumped to the number three spot of top camera manufacturers practically over night thanks to their EVIL line up.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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I wouldn't feel ashamed, Niko, and if my wife were interested in a camera (ANY camera), I would buy it for her! It has taken 4 years owning a DSLR and she's just now getting brave enough to take pictures with it without my help.

I was talking with a buddy over dinner this week who's in the market for a camera. His son poured something all over in their Canon A80. He was describing what he wanted and it was exactly like the little M4/3 cameras, which he had never heard of (he's been using a Canon A80 for 5 years, remember?). I may have swayed him toward getting a (Nikon) DSLR by taking pictures/videos of his family and food, though.

Do you think there will ever be an affordable EVIL rangefinder (like the Leica M9, only 1/8-1/7 the price)? I would be interested in that. Or, if they improve AF speed like you're saying then I would also be really tempted. This is all assuming I have money to spend.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Haha, am not ashamed jonny. My house has too many cameras already that's all. So it's very rare that my wife would actually say she wouldn't mind an E-PL1 for herself. In other words that my wife, a person who could careless about camera specs, thinks this camera is very different then the others I've shown her.

The Olympus E-PL1 with "kit" lens is "only" $549USD right now. To me that's very affordable. The auto focus isn't as "snappy" as a DSLR but it's not as slow as some make it out to be. If you are use to dealing with point&shoot auto focus it's just like that but with 3fps and with less shutter lag (the time between when you press the shutter button to when the picture is actually taken) then it's fast enough. Especially if you are just shooting family portraits etc.

If you want to shoot sports then yeah you'll miss some shots but the continuous AF tracking does a descent job. Plus for trickier shots I was able to pre-focus and hold the shutter button down to get continuous shots fairly easily. I did miss being able to go faster than 1/2000 with the shutter though.

Image quality is pretty good. ISO is good up to about 800. It's so-so above that. The build quality is pretty good but the plastic buttons feel very cheap. But for $549 it's not that bad and that's just nitpicking. The button layout is good although it could have been better, but again if you are use to using a point & shoot then you'll feel right at home. Where as someone coming from a point&shot could feel a bit more intimidated with all the buttons and menu/shooting options on a DSLR.

The lens is plastic and does feel a bit like a toy but I'm use to holding big metal lenses so again that's nitpicking. Besides if you don't like the lens you can always switch it out for another and that's what's so great about it.

Posted 3 years ago #
tcole1983

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NikoDoby said:
OH yeah as if there aren't enough "should I buy a D90 now or wait" or "When is Nikon going to have a better video" or my always favorite "Is the 35mm f1.8 a good lens or should I buy the 18-200?" threads.

Hey wait...that sounds like all my threads :(

Posted 3 years ago #
David

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I am using a D300, and I have recently bought the LX3 for street shots. After the initial enthusiasm, I am using it less now.. for 2 reasons: #1. Slower shutter response makes timing the shots difficult. #2. Very noisy in dim light.
So, I am also tempted by EVIL. However, after using the DSLR.. holding a compact feels strange. The small size feels good but it doesn't feel right.

Posted 3 years ago #
NSXType-R

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NikoDoby said:
OH yeah as if there aren't enough "should I buy a D90 now or wait" or "When is Nikon going to have a better video" or my always favorite "Is the 35mm f1.8 a good lens or should I buy the 18-200?" threads.

Beside I'm sure a moderator can step-in and close this if this question has already been asked before :^P

What a silly idea. That's like buying a Honda AND a Toyota. Now that would be stupid. Everyone knows you can only buy one brand at a time. Besides if I switched to another brand I'd have to quit all of you :^)

But seriously have you tried using one of these cameras NSX? They really are the future I think and their sales numbers pretty much confirm that. Just look at Panasonic. They jumped to the number three spot of top camera manufacturers practically over night thanks to their EVIL line up.

That's why I've stopped responding to those "What should I buy next...?" threads. I let you guys respond to them. :D

I tried it once, it was an EP-1. I only held it for 5 seconds because this was like a week after the EP-1 launched and the only floor model they had had a dying battery. I tried taking photos with it but it was painfully slow. But to be very fair, the battery was dying. I was not impressed with the build quality- it's nice, but it could be better.

I think the Panasonic GF-1 is more for me.

Haha, nothing wrong with having a Honda and a Toyota. My family is a Honda family, my dad is a Honda mechanic, but Honda doesn't make anything with 4WD that we want- we ended up with a Subaru Forester, just because it was available. I hate the CR-V- too tall looking. I didn't want the Pilot- too large. The Element was out of our budget, and the rear doors were annoying.

It's the same idea- if Nikon doesn't make it, you shouldn't keep yourself from jumping ship. Honestly- if Nikon made crappy products, we wouldn't be spending hours a week discussing it here.

Posted 3 years ago #
PB PM

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I used a EP-1 at Best Buy a few weeks ago, feels like a really well made camera, not so sure about the EP-L1 though. I think now is a bad time to buy a M4/3s camera, because the prices are still too high for what you are getting, IMO. I used a 4/3s DSLR for a while last year, and the image quality just wasn't there. Better than a point and shoot, mind you, but not good enough for my liking, although I am rather picky. I'd pickup a used D40 before buying a 4/3s camera again.

Posted 3 years ago #
poster

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Word.

I am waiting for Sony to release it's 4/3 system. I really want a high resolution e-viewfinder. Or an optical hot shoe add on.

Posted 3 years ago #
tcole1983

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tcole1983 said:
Hey wait...that sounds like all my threads :(

I at least didn't make a should I wait for a replacement camera thread :) I usually try to keep my topics worthwhile and ask for input on certain things I am interested in. I did ask about the 35 f1.8, but not about its quality but usability. Just thought I should defend myself even though I wasn't being attacked.

Back to editing photos from today...

Posted 3 years ago #
clillja

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I have to say that I am tempted to explore the M43 phenomenon - I have Voigtlander, Canon, and Leica lenses to play with, and that novoflex adapter would let me use my DX 10.5 - that would be pretty cool too. And my Sigma 10-20.

But I agree they're overpriced right now. Sony will shake things up in that market! I want to see what the home team (Nikon) offers. I sometimes wonder if Nikon or Canon will actually release an ILDC - if they do, I bet it won't be M43...

That e viewfinder is going to have to be amazing to make me a believer. I can't believe no one has figured out that if they made a quality zoom optical finder they could own the market. Kind of like the Contax G series - it would automatically zoom to indicate the FOV of the lens in use. It could let you try out other focal lengths like a Leica M. It could be designed to let you see OUTSIDE the frame(!!) to anticipate action. And no black outs. That would be sweet, but no one listens to me. The rangefinder nuts (like me) would SWOON over it...

My little D3000 is super light, pretty small with the 35/1.8, and it has great AF. I can (and do) put any Nikkor F mount lens on it - my old 85/1.8 H is insanely sharp on the D3000. (Yes I know which ones I can't use.) If Nikon gave me a fast-ish wide-ish DX pancake for my D3k, I'd probably forget about the whole EVIL/ILDC thing...

Posted 3 years ago #
mb

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Sony EVIL would be DX as I hear.
First EVIL cameras were too expensive, and frankly they are not much smaller than D3000 for example with any but the pancake prime lens (D3000 is more comfortable to use in my opinion). If you put viewfinder on them they are bulkier.
But future belongs to EVIL, less moving parts, less retro focus problems, AF could be made more precise (down to the sensor resolution) maybe not as fast as DSLR currently but there should not be lens front/back focus issues ...
In 10 years DSLRs would be thing of the past ...
Currently I would go for Samsung NX10, it seams more competent and better designed then models from traditional Japanese companies.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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I like the body design of the E-PL1 more than the other Olympus PEN cameras. The grip is a bit larger. I also like that it has the on board flash because I like using fill flash. The Panasonic GF1 is a better camera but the E-PL1 isn't that far behind and the price makes it the better buy.

I'm eager to get my hands on the new Sony. The APS-C sized sensor(same size as Nikon's DX DSLRs), 1080p HD video, tilting touch screen LCD, possibly up to 7fps and supposedly a new and very snappy AF design makes it very tempting.

I hope Nikon's EVIL does show up at Photokina in September. Otherwise Nikon will start to feel a lot like Leica when they resisted the transition to digital.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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mb said:
First EVIL cameras were too expensive, and frankly they are not much smaller than D3000 for example with any but the pancake prime lens (D3000 is more comfortable to use in my opinion).

clillja said:
My little D3000 is super light, pretty small with the 35/1.8, and it has great AF. I can (and do) put any Nikkor F mount lens on it - my old 85/1.8 H is insanely sharp on the D3000. (Yes I know which ones I can't use.) If Nikon gave me a fast-ish wide-ish DX pancake for my D3k, I'd probably forget about the whole EVIL/ILDC thing...

$549 is in the canon G11 and Panasonic LX3 price range so between those cameras I'd rather get the E-PL1. The D3000 is a good camera but I already have a "bigger, faster, stronger" DSLR so it doesn't interest me to carry a "smaller" DSLR. I don't find the size of the E-PL1 to be bulky at all. I don't like using the ILDC (Interchangeable Lens Digital Camera) name because to me that includes DSLRs.

A rangefinder is NOT the same as an EVIL camera. The Leica M9 is a digital rangefinder and that's a totally different kind of camera. But it would be nice to have a "pro" build metal bodied EVIL camera. Supposedly Panasonic is working on such a camera.

Posted 3 years ago #
PB PM

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That's true Niko, and I believe cameras like the G11 and Panasonic LX3 are over price for what they are as well. To me any camera that cannot match the focus speed of a DSLR is useless. If you shoot landscapes and posed family photos P&S and EVIL cameras are fine, but for anything else, forget it.

Posted 3 years ago #
adamz

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Ok guys, I have to admit that I got my wife a sony P&S for her b-day, and You know what... she loves it. I also have to admit, that I'm tempted with the Panasonic m4/3 with a nice pancake lens.

Posted 3 years ago #
clillja

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"A rangefinder is NOT the same as an EVIL camera."

No, but I think the ILDC (EVIL has been pretty much rejected by marketing departments) is still being defined. It's not going to be defined by a mount or a sensor size. All we really know is that it's not going to be a traditional (optical) SLR. I don't think it's even going to be defined by an "electronic viewfinder" - another reason the EVIL moniker has to go. The EVs we've seen so far are pretty crappy add-on's that destroy the form factor - and let's face it - form factor is why people want these things.

I wasn't suggesting that my optical VF ILDC would be a rangefinder, but like the late lamented G1&G2 Contax it would be zoom viewfinder. It could even be an electronic hybrid, with information overlaid on the optical image - all the advantages of an optical VF (no delay, no blackout, see outside the frame) but with histograms, exposure and focus info visible.

I've been shooting a Leica IIIa since 1974, I'm pretty sure I know what a rangefinder is. I want something like a digital Konica Hexar AF... quiet, small, super high IQ, good AF performance, but with interchangeable lenses. That's a camera Nikon should build. Unfortunately, it's a camera Nikon is afraid of...

P.S = instead of my optical VF, I'll settle for really good screen. 3"+ minimum + better screen resolution than an iPhone. Minimal delay. Highly developed touch interface. Built in sunscreen. That might work.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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The only people who say ILDC are the Panasonics marketing guys. I think it's a dumb name because DSLRs fit that description.

clillja said:
I don't think it's even going to be defined by an "electronic viewfinder" - another reason the EVIL moniker has to go.

Why? For most people the LCD is the electronic "viewfinder". People don't want to put their eye up to a hole anymore. Devices like the iphone make sure of that. So if YOU don't like the EVIL nomenclature then call it a "mirrorless compact" :^)

Yeah I've had my been around a long time too. And while those cameras you listed are good there is a reason why they died off. Namely the superior performance and lower cost of the 35mm SLR.

Posted 3 years ago #
NSXType-R

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NikoDoby said:
I like the body design of the E-PL1 more than the other Olympus PEN cameras. The grip is a bit larger. I also like that it has the on board flash because I like using fill flash. The Panasonic GF1 is a better camera but the E-PL1 isn't that far behind and the price makes it the better buy.

I'm eager to get my hands on the new Sony. The APS-C sized sensor(same size as Nikon's DX DSLRs), 1080p HD video, tilting touch screen LCD, possibly up to 7fps and supposedly a new and very snappy AF design makes it very tempting.

I hope Nikon's EVIL does show up at Photokina in September. Otherwise Nikon will start to feel a lot like Leica when they resisted the transition to digital.

To be honest, I like the EP1 better, just because it's a better looking camera. :D

Style definitely plays a role in the purchase.

Posted 3 years ago #
clillja

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See my PS above. Still think an optical VF (with electronic overlay) would be superior.

Oh - and I think the M8 & M9 sorta proves those cameras never died. Small niche, but not a coffin. The SLR may have similar niche in the not-so-distant future. And people are not going to walk around referring to their little EVIL's... it's just too silly.

Go to Adorama or B&H or Amazon - go see if you can buy an EVIL camera. (Ok - On Amazon the GF-1 comes up, but only because it's mentioned in some idiot's review.)

(What a nice, vigorous discussion we're having! Helps pass the time while we're waiting for the D90 and D700 replacement.)

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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The M8 was a piece of... excrement(as jonnyapple and chrislange like to say). I got rid of mine quick.

NSXType-R said:
To be honest, I like the EP1 better, just because it's a better looking camera. :D

Style definitely plays a role in the purchase.

It's almost the exact same camera with just a fatter grip and different button layout. Not sure how Nikon would make their EVIL camera any different than the COOLPIX layout though. Would they go more for a point&shoot design like Olympus, Panny, and now Sony or do they go for a bit larger body like the big zoom point&shoot COOLPIXes (P100 etc.)or the Samsung NX series.

Posted 3 years ago #
clillja

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Some variation on the old Coolpix 900 series (twist and shoot) layout would be kind of cool and different. I have to say - that was about the last Coolpix people took seriously.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Very true. That was back when Nikon didn't have any low-end DSLRs. Actually I think the only DSLR at around that time was the D1. Once the D70 came out all that changed and DSLRs started becoming affordable and the market changed. Very similar to EVIL cameras coming out now.

I still use my Sony 717 with it's swivel body a lot. It's the reason I like swivel LCDs on DSLRs. I mostly shoot IR with it now though.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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I'm sorry I said EVIL and rangefinder in the same sentence, Niko. I guess what I'd like is a rangefinder with an LCD screen for the uninitiated. I want a FF digital Nikon S3 (S4?) with an LCD screen for under $2000. Now is that so hard?

I like your optical viewfinder idea, too, clillja.

M4/3 for the win! ;-)

Posted 3 years ago #