where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
I'd think you'd be fine with your current monitor if you understand the danger of judging sharpness only at 100% pixel reproduction. Maybe you should try viewing the image at closer to the size you want to print/display. That might mean 33% for an average-sized print or maybe even less if the web is its final destination.
Just to illustrate, I meant what I said originally that the images you posted here look sharp to me.
spraynpray said:
WOW! Most of the replies above have at least one nugget of information that is partially or completely relevant/likely/useful - thanks guys.Today I took a string of pictures using the lense at varying lengths (70/200/300) at varying ISO's from +1 to 6400 and resultant apertures from 5.6 to 13. What has come out of this all is a/ I can't believe how little negative effect high ISO has, and b/ how little difference the changes had on the sharpness on my PC screen. VR really seems to work as the shutter speeds varied from 1/320 to 1/4000 and the pics look remarkably similar. I do now feel silly because I am getting the feeling (correct me if I am wrong here) that the main problem with those shots may be my LED PC screen but I don't want to waste paper/ink/money printing out pics just for examination. I looked at some laptops today that had HD screens - is that an essential feature for critical examination of pics or is it still way worse than a print?
I have so much to learn about all this - it is frightening!
Does anybody have a recommendation of a book that will teach me the science or art of critical photograph examination? Sounds daft, but for one reason or another, I am not seeing much difference between the pics I took today.
I can't recommend a book, but obviously zoom to a certain part of the picture that you want to compare. It will become apparent with patterns or when looking at certain parts of the photos..the edges of objects sometimes will have more or less blur to them. Colors seem to be sort of personal preference, but if the pictures were all taken with the same zoom and lighting, etc. then it might be hard to tell much of a difference there.
By the way, spraynpray, what software are you using to post-process? Try applying an unsharp mask to your photos and playing around with the setting on it to see if they look more like what you want. It could be you could be happy learning more about sharpening. Here's a starting place:
http://bythom.com/sharpening.htm
This is not to say that what you're doing and asking here is wrong—I think you should always try to get as much sharpness as possible in your original image, but I'm just saying maybe you're looking for an effect that is in photos you've seen that you can only get in post.
I didn't post-process the image at all except when I enhanced the colours a little which I noticed seemed to improve matters. I use Elements 7.0 and have just tried the unsharpen mask in there on the picture I posted on page 7 of the photo-a-day thread. Your link to the article once again shows me how much I have to learn about all of this. Another great link - thanks!
If you don’t mind I made an example of what could be made with you photos by just a conservative sharpening using unsharp mask:
Hello, wake up, get the thread out of the freezer....
It was asked of me if I did panning shots, so on PAD, I posted a couple of will soon add some more. But, I thought a discussion of what I have found as the different techniques of panning, and possibly this would get some different ideas going. Posting of photos can be done after a discussion of the different opinions.
Most common is the high sped object, moving from side to side. Remember, the relative speed of the object increases as it comes into the photo, is maximum in front of you and decreases as the object moves away. The Nikon Digitutor on the D4 shows some of this with the panning of race vehicles. http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Product/Digital-SLR-Cameras/25482/D4.html
Go to "Autofocus II" in the Digitutor.
Once the idea of the speed differential is understood, then the practice begins. Before any exposures I will follow 5 or 10 objects and try to get the "feel" of the movement.
The second case involving less panning but more work in the camera, is the object moving more at an angel toward us. This requires a good mechanical auto focus mechanism.
Thirdly, is the panning with shorter lenses. In this case, one must understand the out of focus and the blurring will take place as a rotational phenomenon, and the point we want to show with clarity is where we want our rotational center to be.
So far no mention of shutter speed or aperture. This is where one must find their own way...sort of. I like to know the approximate speed of the object relative to my position. Then I calculate the feet (or meters) per second. For example, 70 mph is about 100 feet per second. Thus, at 1/100th second shutter speed the car moves 1 foot. If I am extremely talented, I can follow a car with panning and catch this. But, the "keeper" rate at 1/100th is maybe 10-20% maximum with a 300mm or longer lens when one fills the frame. One must understand that if the object fills only have the frame its relative speed is also one half, making the panning easier. But if one crops to the full frame in PP, then the relative speed comes back to exactly the same as if a longer lens was used.
If the shutter speed is 1/250th sec, then the "keeper" rate goes to about 50% if it is a good day. Now, I have panned at 1/15th sec where the vehicle was going about 40 mph (60 feet per second). The keeper rate is about 2-5%. But, even at 1/1000th sec, at 100 mph (160 kph), the object is going nearly 150 feet per second (45 meters/sec) or during exposure 2 inches (45mm). So, if the panning is not close...blur will result.
As to aperture, I like to stop down about 2-3 f/stops. That is with an f/2.8, I go to 5.6 as a minimum and usually further so as to give some DOF. Maybe f/8-11. I rarely go beyond f/16 or smaller as I do not think the optics do well at small f/stops.
VR...I use it as the lens thinks the variations in ones panning is vibration and may save you. But, at 1/100th or shorter, a test of your lens/camera combo may be in order. Tripod..generally to hold the heavy stuff of 400mm and longer. Some may be able to hand hold, and others like a monopod as it is lighter weight. The tripod need s a good head. I use a Manfrotto Gimbal head and it is great especially at the price point. And slimy smooth.
For shorter lenses up to 300mm, hand holding, using a body rotation to shoot seems to work. I hold the camera with the lens in left hand and elbow is on my chest, locking the entire camera/lens to me. The rotation is smoother this way, at least for me.
For the real short lenses, way down to even 16mm on full frame, the motion of the body will be quite rapid as one is generally only a few feet from the subject. Care must be taken to not get injured in these cases.
Now, some like to shoot single shots....I like to shoot as many FPS as I can with the panning shots. In some cases I will allow the object to enter the frame slowly, try to "lock on" and then it moves out of the frame. Usually I catch the object in the finder, press the release half way about half second before exposures, then press the release and shoot maybe five to ten frames. I like to have the object fill the entire frame as it gets close to me, if possible.
Post processing. I download about 50% into the computer. Then, using an enlarged image 100% crop, I go through all the images and eliminate any which are not crisp. Another 50-75% I am extremely critical about sharpness in the photos. Most of the folks who view my photos like them. Car owners want to see their car, not some fuzzy artsy crap. OK, some are nice photos, but most folks want to see what the object is.
If one gets anything out of this soliloquy, then it is time to practice. Thousands of shutter clicks, hours in post processing. And, I rarely if ever "sharpen"in PP as I think it kills details.
Hope this get some folks thinking....
Oh, look at this one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fantinesfotos/7575126970/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Shot at 1/250th f/14 ISO 250 Vehicle speed about 60-70 mph.
Good post, msmoto.
Sharpening a picture is a balance for those that don't have expensive lenes. Shooting with a 70-300 ($550) you're not going to get as sharp a picture as someone using the 70-200 ($2,200) and etc.
The trick to sharpening is to denoise with it. Denoise will bring the quality back to the picture. But much like HDR the trick is not to over do it.
Here's an example of a shot I was too slow in panning last weekend:
No sharpening
Sharpening with Denoise
Yeah, that use of Denoise seems to work well. How many FPS are you shooting? It looks like you are at 1/500th or 1/750th sec?
Regarding the lenses, I think the old 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6 is a good lens for panning, but not as good for following focus if they are coming toward the camera at a high rate of speed.
My biggest problem in shooting these fast objects is not being able to catch them in the frame. Thus, at the 1/250th sec speed, I will get about 25% acceptable... meaning very sharp. And about 20% will be cut off on the front or rear. I think the idea is to shoot hundreds. Actually the nice Audi with the brake rotor glowing is one of four final shots, about 15 were good final shots, but the number of total exposures was in the 140 range as I remember.... The problems are especially true when there are obstacles like flag stations, safety walls, telephone poles, etc., in the middle of the path to the object. Or, as I encountered this past weekend, some real jerk with photo credentials who actually worked for the track and who moved twice to purposely stand in front of me. Even turned around to check and make sure he was blocking my view.
Age is the real problem for me now, 30 years ago I could hold a 200mm on a 60mph motorbike at 100ASA and 1/60th and get more keepers than losers (film so you try harder). Oh, manual focus as well so zone focus used.
<sigh>
msmoto.....I hardly ever shoot fps in racing shots because I'm trying to get 3 shots of one racers pass (head on, side, back shot). That said, if a racer ask me to do just a pan shot of them I'll rip off the fastest fps my D7000 has.
1/500 is my go to speed, I know most of my shots will come out and the tires/wheels will be spinning somewhat. 1/200 is my favorite safe pan speed and I'll go 1/1250+ with high speed front shots.
I too get a 1 to 4 keeper rate when panning (1/200). When I go 1/60 - 1/100 panning it drops drasticly to over 1 in 10 keepers. 150-200 FL mm's away is my favorite panning distance for a smooth and steady shot but seldom do I get that oppertunity and have to shoot the pans much closer.
I have problems at almost every track with the track photographer. They'll attempt to block my shots anyway they can. I've had them set a ladder up to block my shots, stand in my way, have their spouse come over to talk to me during the feature runs to disrupt my shooting and the list goes on. But as you know shooting events, we can never let them get to us, as hard as it may be.
spraynpray.......I hear you as I turn 60 this year. I've had to learn tricks in shooting with the big lenes and have even bought shoulder straps to help as well. When shooting road courses I'm normally sitting down with my back braced against something, only raising my camera when it's time to focus and shoot. Drag racing the christmas tree is my friend as I wait till the top light comes on before hoisting my camera up, it gives me the perfect time to focus. I think that's also a reason I'm not an advocate of VR because I'm always finding ways to brace my camera.
spraynpray said:
Last weekend I took these example pictures handheld (panning) with my D5000/70-300VR on shutter priority at 1/1000 sec which gave f5.6 at ISO200 using AF-C and centre weighted metering.
Firstly, see what happens when you turn the VR off in a similar situation.
Secondly, get close enough to be able to shoot at 200mm. If you still find the images soft, get your equipment calibrated, might be a miscalibration issue as well.
And if the calibration does not help, get a sharper lens, like Sigma 120-300 2.8 OS (very heavy, costs 2k) or the AF-S 300mm f/4.
Meant to share this one with you, since it fits to the conversation about not sharp images when panning.
I have tried to catch some birds in flight over last weekend. My keeper rate was close to 0. The one above is a good example. Not sharp enough to be a good photo. What went wrong (i think):
- i dont like motion blur of the birds wings in flight. Had to use 1/1000 and f2.8 because of the low ambient light. I should have cranked up the ISO to allow me a faster shutter speed and and maybe f5,6. This is an aperture, where I reckon the 70-200 shines best
- had to crop the picture too much, because i acicidently moved the focal length to 150mm. Taping the lens in situations where you have to react fast is a good idiea. These birds dont fly laps like race cars and motorcycles :-) so one has only limited chances to learn from trial and error
- I should have used S instead of M exposure mode. The light situation between bright sky and low light river bank is not managable quickly in manual mode
- if you want to shoot birds, shoot birds. Set your camera up for it and wait. Don't get distracted by other subjects and keep on changing your camera settings
- practice panning. I used continus AF with 24 metering points. Try to concentrate on your metering while shooting, don't think about framing. Trying to do both, is for my small brain too much to handle
- i shot hand-held, VR on. I believe with a gimbal tripod and VR off my keeper rate would have been definately better.
Sorry for my limited english, but I hope I got my message across and you are finding this "debriefing" a bit useful.
Jürgen
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