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Noise Question

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Started 3 years ago by anjz
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Noise D90

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anjz

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I enjoy natural light portraits indoors, and often boost my ISO to 1600. I've noticed some stippling in some of those portraits, usually in areas of dark to light transitions, which I believe is noise. Please see linked photograph in area to the left of my wife's head and above my daughter's head, where black meets gray.

I haven't had great success with this particular issue using noise reduction software (including Neat Image and Lightroom 3 Beta 2 noise reduction tools). Lightroom 3 left an unappealing banded gradation in the place of the stippling (second link below). Neat Image left some stippling. However, aside from these light to dark transitions, I've had success with such software.

What I'm seeking is some advice on whether upgrading from my D90 to a D700 would assist in my quest for smooth low-light portraits and remove the noise that I pointed out in the linked photo. I did, in fact, hear from 1 person that upgrading to a D300s would fully solve this issue, but my reading on websites seems to indicate otherwise and it does seem that the D90 should have equal high ISO capabilities.

Can some people with the D700 and/or D300s provide some insight, please?

Photo Links:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4497902787_f1e2b805eb_b.jpg
(above link to default Capture NX2 conversion)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4497949271_792cd89f7c_b.jpg
(above link to LR3beta2 with LR Noise Reduction)

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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I think your photos look pretty good. The D90 has the same sensor as the D300 so upgrading to that is not going to improve your image.

The D700 would give you less noise but I honestly don't see a problem with your D90 samples and the difference wouldn't be worth the additional cost. This is quite good for a digital camera. Even a film camera would give you more noise than that.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Oh and by the way you've got a lovely family.

Posted 3 years ago #
anjz

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Thanks for the advice and compliment!

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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Ditto Niko's comments.

One thing to try on lightroom is to take black clipping to 0 instead of the default (5) and then take the shadows slider (and dark slider) on the curves control down until you get the look you want. I don't like how lightroom handles extreme darks with their black clipping (but it's what I use, so it's obviously not a deal-breaker for me).

Posted 3 years ago #
gelu88

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you must be seeing something i'm not...

while there is a bit of noise all over the image, which gets somewhat better after NR, i'm not seeing anything significant in the areas you mentioned.

Honestly it just looks like a great shot.

Posted 3 years ago #
Sandpiper

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I can see the noise that you are talking about, and understand that once you see it, it is hard to pretend it is not there. I have both a D90 and a D300s, and I have spent the last 30 minutes shooting shadows on a gray card at different ISO's with the two cameras. I find the same noise in the darker grays when I pixel peep, and I see no difference between the two cameras. I made sure the cameras were out of focus so I did not see texture in the gray card.

In your image, jpg compression may have made it appear slightly worse than it was before conversion to jpg. It appears to me I can see a bit of jpg artifacts there in the noise.

I have looked at and compared the DXOMark data, and think the D700 is about 1.5 f-stops better than the D90/D300s. So I think you could get an idea of what the D700 would do by just shooting a controlled scene at 1600 ISO, then again at about 500 ISO, and compare the results. I did that, and the noise was till very visible.

It seems to me this noise is mostly due to the pixel peeping. Maybe you are cropping too much, and could get better results with framing that does not require cropping.

Another option might be to use a gaussian blur only in the area where the problem is objectionable; it is already out of focus there.

Just some ideas, your mileage may vary.

Posted 3 years ago #
anjz

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This is great advice and some serious effort. Thank you all. I'm sticking with my D90 and will try these techniques.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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Wow, that is a really thorough test, sandpiper. Were you an engineer in a previous life?

anjz, you might want to try the noise reduction slider in lightroom, too. At ISO 400 or higher with shots from the D90, I always have it at least to 25. Photoshop does even better noise reduction if it's something really important, but lightroom works for me most of the time. I've never tried (or felt the need to try) third-party plugins like noise ninja, but some people swear by them.

Posted 3 years ago #
bmxdad

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I use Define to remove noise and it works OK, BTW Jonny what did it cost you to get to the Platinum level, I kind of feel left out, Plutonium sounds neat too

Pete

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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I just kept whining about it until one of the mods gave in and changed it for me. I assume it's only temporary.

Posted 3 years ago #
bmxdad

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Next month we will properly upgrade to Preferred member anyway, at app the same time

Pete

Posted 3 years ago #
Sandpiper

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jonnyapple said:
Wow, that is a really thorough test, sandpiper. Were you an engineer in a previous life?

Yes. I spent about 40 years as an EE.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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I suspected that, or a scientist (what's the difference anyway, when you get down to it, besides that some scientists don't have a clear view of what's possible in real life?). I'm in physics, but the applied side of things. I'm not trying to hijack your thread, anjz. PM is broken—that's my excuse.

Posted 3 years ago #
kyoshinikon

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D90 to D300s for low light capabilities = not worth the $1700...

D90 to D700 for anything = you will die very happy knowing that now you can see in the dark...

So Johnnyapple what benefits do you get for being a platinum member that preferred, gold, regular, and coal members don't get? :^D

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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Unless I'm missing something, the main benefit is having 'Platinum Member' show up in blue underneath my avatar. ;-)

Oh yeah, and there's also that limited edition D700 that Niko promised me.

Posted 3 years ago #
mb

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It is called limited because it lacks sensor, viewfinder, mount and the body altogether so it is somewhat limited technologically but it allows you to fully engage your creativity ;)

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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You know, mb, I think you're right about the creativity. Ironically, rules can sometimes actually enhance creativity! After reading your comment, I've decided not to wait for the D700 replacement and start shooting with the limited edition D700 replacement that I've had all this time without knowing. It's been a productive day on the forum so far. ;-)

I'm off to post about the new sensor that my limited edition D700s doesn't have...

Posted 3 years ago #
anjz

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Kyoshinikon, you came along just when I thought I had my current bout of NAS under control....

Posted 3 years ago #
kanuck

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Hi,

I was bothered so much by my old D300 and its noise that I upgraded to the D700 and now everythings fine. I used noise ninja which I managed to download for free off the net. This program has been so good that I would even buy it at this point. Its easy to overdo it though so mind the sliders and a little is often all you need. I have been told the D90 is a better camera than the D300 (same sensor) and the upgrade to a D700 is still significant price wise. Your pictures seem to have less noise in them anjz so maybe just give Noise Ninja a shot. Nice pics!^^

Posted 3 years ago #
heartyfisher

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Cant see the images... :-(

Posted 3 years ago #
zenzone

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I also can't see the images in the original message.

I have both Neat Image and Nik's Dfine 2.0, and Dfine has much more capability and flexibility than Neat Image, although Neat Image is a lot better than nothing. Dfine has a lot of user settings, so it takes a signicant amount of learning and experimentation to see how well it can do. As soon as I bring a P&S JPEG image into Photoshop, I increase its image depth from 8-bit RGB to 16-bit RGB for greater precision in the subsequent computations. Removing noise without loosing fine detail takes some doing, but you can surprise yourself with how well you can do after you climb the Dfine learning curve. Nik has some online lessons, but experimentation is also a good idea.

ZZ (not associated with Nik Software or Dfine)

Posted 3 years ago #
anjz

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Sorry, I killed the links! The photo is at the following link:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4374073719_70f6a41fa0_b.jpg

Thank you again.

Posted 3 years ago #
zenzone

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anjz,

This is an attempted linked-in of a crop from your image.

The area on the left side of the arrows has been processed with Dfine 2.0 at more or less default settings. There is some improvement, although, as others have noted, your original isn't too bad, so the improvement isn't very obvious even at 100% magnification. Nik has a downloadable tryout version of Dfine, which you might want to try.

ZZ (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

Posted 3 years ago #
anjz

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I'm going to play around with my Dfine trial download. Thanks for the illustration. I think I may bring my laptop to the camera store this weekend...just take a quick look at the D700. Shouldn't be too hard to walk out empty handed ;)

Posted 3 years ago #