where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
yeah, 12mpx feels like over kill. . .post processing takes 20% longer now moving from 1o to 12mpx. . .I dunno why people are SO obsessed with mpx's. . .
honestly, if you're a sports or wildlife shooter where you may have to crop slightly more, it makes sense to have more mpx, otherwise. . . .
Personally I do a lot of gigantic prints of my face (sometimes specifically my nose, or my mouth, my eyes on occasion, etc.), we're talking approx. 5'x7' so I need all the glorious MP I can get my hands on. I suppose nikon's puny 12mp would be alright if I only wanted people to see my features in hand held glory.
Nikon 12Mpix saga:
D2X, September 16, 2004, DX CMOS sensor, Sony silicon, ISO 100-800 (expandable to 1600)
D2XS, June 1, 2006, same D2X DX sensor
D300, 23 August 2007, new and improved DX CMOS sensor, Sony silicon, ISO 200–3200 (expandable to 100-6400), only slightly related to D2x sensor
D3, August 23, 2007, FX CMOS sensor, Nikon own design, unknown silicon maker, ISO 200-6400 (expandable to 100-25600), totally unrelated to D2x sensor
D700, July 1, 2008, same D3 FX sensor
D90, 27 August 2008, same D300 DX sensor
D5000, 14 April 2009, same D300 DX sensor
D300S, 30 July 2009, same D300 DX sensor
D3S, October 14, 2009, new and improved FX CMOS sensor, Nikon own design, unknown silicon maker, ISO 200-12800 (expandable to 100-102400), only slightly related to D3 sensor, totally unrelated to D2x sensor
All sensors used by Nikon are actually finished in Nikon own factory, hence the difference between Sony and Nikon image quality.
Sony makes silicon for sensors used in all Nikon DX 12Mpux CMOS cameras (6 of them).
Silicon used in full frame sensors used in D3, D700 and the latest one used in D3s are made by still unconfirmed manufacturer.
12Mpix is probably more then enough for most professionals and D3s is the best professional tool on the market for sports or most other photojournalist jobs.
On the other hand most amateurs would love to have Nikon DX camera with a Mpix or two more.
Hmmm... maybe thats why they want more MP .. cos the amateurs dont compose correctly in the first place so they need to crop more to get a better picture after the fact. Come to think of it I have seen thousands of pictures taken by "normal people"(cant think of a term below amateurs, :-) ) where the person and other main subjects are tiny!
PS There is also the LBCAST sensors invented by Nikon for the D2H, Possibly the LBCAST tech has been folded into the D3 and D3S sensors. Its a kind of CMOS after all. anyone seen the D2H sensor chips? I know that the D300 and D3X sensors look alike..(from sony) and that the D3S and D3 chips look alike but different from the D300/D3X...
There is another group that wants more MP, wildlife photographers, we can never get close enough!
The D3(S) and D700 sensors are NOT made by Sony. It is strongly believed they are an evolution of the LBCAST (true that it's very much like a CMOS) technology designed by Nikon but manufactured by a Japanese company named Renesas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renesas_Technology
kanuck said:
I wonder if Nikon is still trying to use the designed D3 sensor and just maximize their returns from all the money they spent on designing it. I hear Nikon spent a fortune on research and manufacturing the D3. Look how many bodies have come with basically the same D3 sensor since 2007. The D3 itself, D300, D300s, D700, D90, D3x and the D3s. Just throw in a few tweaks on the original sensor and boom 6 bodies for people to dump their cash into.
It's not the first time Nikon does this. The D100, D70, D50 and D40 all have the "same" 6mp sensor made by Sony. The D40X, D60, D80, and D200 had the "same" 10mp sensor too. Even early digital cameras had Kodak sensors literally inside Nikon modified film bodies. It's not a bad thing to have someone else's sensor inside your camera body.
You can add the D3000 as still using that 10MP sensor.
The D40X, D60, D80, D200, and D3000 have the "same" 10mp sensor too.
Just for you PB PM :^)
WRONG PLACE to bring this up LOL.
These guys really make me laugh.
The brains in this forum are as washed as they get. Do not look for any reasonable discussion here.
12 is enough, Get it????? Matter of fact, 12 is too much!!!! OK? End of story (until Nikon comes out with their 24M pixel model of course, then they will all sing its praises).
Its like asking the people of Pompeii if they have a volcano problem. Of course Nikon is lacking, I wonder what is happening to the company, they really look like they are asleep. I think they might not have the dept of pockets the other camera companies companies do.
haha, it's not an issue of brand loyalty...in fact I don't even currently shoot Nikon (although I will admit I am going to pick up a Nikon body next).
Did you read anything anyone posted? There are factual substantial reasons as to why it is unnecessary for most people to shoot with more than 12 or in many cases 6mp. On top of that it can become harmful to actually shoot with too many, as well as having to own the right glass to actually take advantage of the mp, which most people do not and will not.
of course you will just see what you want to see.
LOL! Like I said I have been using 6MP and its fine for me.. 12 MP would be nice.. 24 would be nice too... but I prefer the high DR and the High ISO, gives me much more options than high MP. every thing is a compromise. I think Nikon has made the better compromise. Choosing High ISO over high MP. Of course they also have the HDR High MP D3X so I really dont see the point of your rant(and accusing us all of being brainwashed) are you talking about the consumer range? If that the range you are talking about I guess Nikon is lacking and they should produce a consumer kit with high MP but lower DR and Lower ISO capabilities like the 7D. It does sound like the consumer and amateur level market does like the High MP.
I have compromised and chose High DR over High MP. Works for me. 6MP has been more than enough for me. Looking forward to upgrading the 12 then maybe 18 or 24MP some day when they have the HDR better mastered.
Tell me why do you want High MP? What do you shoot that needs 24MP? Are you sure its not you that is brainwashed :-) LOL
I have a friend who is really picky on image quality and he has canon gear(21MP) but he was seriously considering switching to the D3S except for the lense investment that he has. I convinced him to stay with canon. Its not worth jumping just because of small IQ advantages that will be equaled or leapfrogged by the next generation of tech. I am just glad that nikon has the edge at the moment. :-) (except for the Low MP LOL) (Not considering Flash,Hi-ISO,Focus acuracy!)
As mentioned before 12Mpix is more then enough for most professionals.
At standard newspaper resolution of 300dpi 4288x2848 pixels (12Mpix) will give you 9.5” by 14.4” image size that is larger than most front pages are so you have some room to crop if needed.
Much more important is sensitivity, dynamic range and color accuracy.
“Most professionals” does not mean all, bird and wildlife photographers, among others, will probably need more for cropping, so you have 24Mpix D3x.
@mb, I do like the canon colours better than the ones produced by the D300,D3,D700. I Like the D3S colours though. Have not seen enough of the D3X colours to make a judgement, but ones I have seen are not too bad :-) Cant wait for the D700S would be a killer camera if the colours are the same as the D3S! I could even excuse the lack of HDR :-)
Well why wouldn't you?
In camera HDR is rubbish from what I saw.
I suppose colors are a bit personal, I don’t like Canon tendency to oversaturate.
The 12 M Pixel rules seems pretty arbitrary illogical.
The same argument could have been made in the film days about medium form and large format cameras. Who needs them???? The fact is I did and I used them and loved the quality. Ansel Adams need it and the whole f64 school did. Couldn't they have just as well used a 35mm and printed 5x7? Of course.
All the reviews of the high M Pixel cameras describe the incredible detail and beautiful images. I have yet to read a review of the d3 that said, incredible image quality, BUT who needs it?
Who needs it? You do and I do. Why? Because it is there and it is possible.
Dellaaa - Ok, so we're stupid because you used to flame 35mm shooters? Yeah, you had a need for large format, others didn't. If you are going to be shooting large posters, maybe 12 MP isn't good enough for you. I used to shoot primarily 35mm, but also shot 120. Turns out, for me, the 35mm was just fine. On blowups, yeas, 120 was better, but I didn't need it for 99.9% of what I was doing.
By the same token, if 99.9% of the people on this forum get excellent shots from 12 MP, and don't need a lot more (and some don't find they need 12MP), why flame them? If you are not happy with what Nikon offers, stick with your large format, and get a life. Don't interfere with ours.
I find I don't really use high iso a lot on my camera. In most cases 1600 is more than enough even at night or in really poor light conditions. 1600 looks great on the D700 and so does 3000 thats enough for me. These hyper iso and bodies with video are a complete waste of time for me. The D3x is the only Nikon sensor that interests me at the moment.
Some very interesting posts on here though especially about the time line of each bodies sensor. I thought the D300 was descendent of the D3 but looks like it was the D2X then..
I agree, the D700 and D3 have great low light shooting abilities, and I would love to have one, let alone something with the high ISO of the D3s! If they could make a D3x that had the FPS and low light of the D3, then I might be interested, until then I'll stick with 12MP cameras.
One important thing about handling high ISO speeds well is that it's basically telling you how much noise there is in the shadows—even if you're shooting at low ISO. It means that if you shoot jpeg, there's not a lot of difference between a D700 and a D300 because that extra information in the D700 image gets thrown away when a curve gets applied to get the gamma right. If you're shooting RAW, though, it means you've got lots more you can do to open the shadows (kind of an in-camera HDR).
@dellaaa : Look you are special . and as a person with special needs you will have to pay for it. Thats just the way it is. The only options for you is to go MF digital or the D3X. Or compromise and get the canon versions with High MP with lower IQ. Yes its frustrating when you are special .. You cant just get normal gear. Still you don't need to take it out on the rest of the world. If you were normal like the rest of the world then you wont be special anymore :-) Look every thing is a compromise. and nikon has chosen it optimal compromise and It just so happens that most people agree with that chosen compromise. similarly canon has chosen its compromise and many people agree with that compromise as well.. other (MF digital, D3X, FujiFLM EXR) have chosen their level of compromise. Go find one that fits with your style and finance.
mb said:
Well why wouldn't you?
In camera HDR is rubbish from what I saw.
I suppose colors are a bit personal, I don’t like Canon tendency to oversaturate.
What in camera HDR? I was talking about the D3X DR of close to 13EV compared to the DR of most cameras of about 10 EV (Of course my S5pro has about 14EV)
I find the colours from the D300/D700/D3 weird, like colours from "neon signs". The D3S seems to have taken the edge off the neon sign colours which I like. I dont think the canon over saturates, they have nice skin tones. Wish FujiFlim brings out an EXR DSLR. I just love the S5Pro colours.
mb said: Well why wouldn't you?
In camera HDR is rubbish from what I saw.
I suppose colors are a bit personal, I don’t like Canon tendency to oversaturate.
---
What in camera HDR? I was talking about the D3X DR of close to 13EV compared to the DR of most cameras of about 10 EV (Of course my S5pro has about 14EV)
I find the colours from the D300/D700/D3 weird, like colours from "neon signs". The D3S seems to have taken the edge off the neon sign colours which I like. I dont think the canon over saturates, they have nice skin tones. Wish FujiFlim brings out an EXR DSLR. I just love the S5Pro colours.
Meh, if you shoot RAW you choose the colours. I never use camera brand picture controls.
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