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A thought on HD video

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valonqe

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What I normally do when I have a long renders is leave it over night so it won't be a problem even if you have slower computer. But for today's work-load computers have gone far. Computer programmers are coming up with different codex every day compressing the file to small size but with good quality information so any computer can handle that.

Remember 8 years ago to build a computer for editing it could of cost well over 40k but today you can edit a feature film on a 4k Macintosh with ease.

So technology is moving forward so quickly it's hard to keep up.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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According to the DigitalReview of the canon T2i review, 5min of 1080p Mov. video takes up almost 2GB of space! While 5min of 720p video from a D90 only takes up 600MB. So you are going to be rendering for a long long time if you have several hours worth of vacation movies to edit.

Posted 3 years ago #
kyoshinikon

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I do agree that most consumer computers cannot render let alone fully play 5 mins of 1080p "film". If that overheat sensor problem 5 min limit wasn't a problem the D90 could probably do 20-25 mins on an 8 gig

Posted 3 years ago #
heartyfisher

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I always thought that 5min limit was not to do with heating but to do with some Japanese legistlation that clasifies (and therefore taxes higher) anything that can do video at greater than 5min.

Posted 3 years ago #
AaronFoto

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It's ridiculous to say 1080p video recording capability is a waste. Yes it is that important. It's THE standard. If you don't have it now you will in the future, and it's a waste to argue otherwise.

Get on board. (All in good humor)

Posted 3 years ago #
valonqe

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I agree with you AaronFoto. we are going that way any way so sooner or later everything is going to full HD, it's just time. It's a good thing that we have these DSLRS because we are practicing the craft before it becomes a must have.

Posted 3 years ago #
PB PM

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heartyfisher said:
I always thought that 5min limit was not to do with heating but to do with some Japanese legistlation that clasifies (and therefore taxes higher) anything that can do video at greater than 5min.

I believe that is actually an EU legislation, not one in Japan.

Posted 3 years ago #
reef

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Willis said:
I've been down on 1080p for quite some time now (as those of you who are regulars know full well), But now that Target is selling Blue-Ray players for $70 I've got to say the time is coming pretty soon.

So quick poll - How many of you out there own a Blue-Ray player, Blue Ray Burner, and 1080p Television? If you have all of the above, do you also shoot video?

Of the three, I've only got the TV part (which is kind of useless w/o the blue-ray player to be perfectly honest).

Now that the pricing is coming in-line, I'll probably pick up the rest of the set-up in the next year or two. I certainly wouldn't mind a Blue Ray burner for back-up purposes.

I fit this category and shoot on a RED ONE with $30k worth of Nikon glass. I like Nikon glass so I will continue to shoot on the RED with Nikon. But I must admit I am having to borrow a mates Canon rig for smaller/faster turnaround jobs. He borrows my rig for his bigger jobs of course.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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Welcome to the forum, reef. There's always room for more Aussies round here. So how do you think the video from, say, a canon 5DII compares with the video from your RED? I'm just curious.

Posted 3 years ago #
valonqe

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I have used RED ONE in few projects and in on TV commercial I used it with D90 together.
We rented the RED for 2 days and on the first day we had problems with electricity so we ended up canceling that day. Following day we shot what we could and then picked up the rest of the shots with D90.
We converted all the files to pro res HQ 720p to match up the D90 and then finished the commercial. Later one the client didn't like one of the actors so we ended up shooting the commercial form the beginning apart form the shots where you couldn't see the actor.
Because the RED ONE wasn't we ended up shooting with the D90 again. When it was broadcast on local tv station now body could of tell the difference between each other.

SO my experience with three cameras RED, D90 and D300s in terms of looks you can't tell the apart, of course the resolution and compression in RED ONE is unbeatable.

The only thing what we had to struggle with D90 was setting up the low ISO to avoid grain because we had to shoot at nights.

jonny we have a 5dmII at work and when I compare Nikon and Canon in D-move, canon's colors look a bit pale, not as vivid with Nikon.

Posted 3 years ago #
jbl

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kyoshinikon said:
Selectable Fps would be great though. As to raw, I shoot it because I print at 20-30 in

But why do you need to show your friends such a big print? can't you just show them your pictures on your monitor?

Why do you need more than 6 mpx?

/thread

my point is that if you need to print this big, there's a pretty big chance that other people also need high resolution video. In terms of post production, to me, even if I want to output in 720p, having the source file in 1080p gives a lot of possibilities.

This topic is pointless, we should not even discuss it, it comes down to a single topic: Some people do indeed need good video, in a similar way that some people out there needs good DSLR cameras.

Same thing.

I'm a student, I'm not buying a RED scarlet with a tiny sensor, I want FX sensor video. It's incredible that for a 8k-10k budget I can get pro quality photo AND video all at once for my projects, totally worth it.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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Thanks for the info, Valon.

I don't know why people complain about it, either, jbl. I'll take it as a bonus to taking stills and I'll love it!

Posted 3 years ago #
valonqe

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I think people are releasing that the video function on DSLRs is the feature so even those once that where complaining are starting to accept and move one.

It is revolutionary with the introduction of video in DSLR's. With the fraction of the price you are getting the same look with cameras that cost 30times the price of the DSLR's.

Sony's F900 cinealta costs well over 50k and the sensor on it is only 2/3 so the look of that camera is similar to any video camera.

I also understand all photographers when they say that they don't care because they only take pictures because at the end of the day Nikon is a photo camera and they main concern is to get it right for photographers. But since they have introduced the D-move mode all we are suggesting is to fix the minor details which at the beginning maybe Nikon didn't think it was important.

The good thing is that the video mode is not a function to raise the over all price of a camera because it is only a firmware tweak. So having it as a option it is a BONUS.

What I do now days since I bought D300s is I take a panning shot of each location I photograph as well as video diary. I don't carry any more my video camera.

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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The video pan is a good idea, Valon. I think in-camera video just scared stills photographers when it came out because a lot of them had just gotten used to the idea of digital and were afraid they'd have to adapt to another big change. Now it's clear that, like you mentioned, it doesn't hurt the performance of the camera for stills (just look at the D3s's performance!), and the complaints have died down. The video you can produce with these cameras really is quite beautiful. Just a few more tweaks to add (frame rate options and rolling shutter fixed/improved on) and I'll be completely satisfied. And 1080 would be icing. ;-)

Posted 3 years ago #
reef

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jonnyapple said:
So how do you think the video from, say, a canon 5DII compares with the video from your RED? I'm just curious.

On a 30" screen, yeah massive difference... on the web - hardly any. Also the 5DII isn't even close to the RED when shooting high speed or action shots. I use 120fps in 2K aall the time it is awesome! The 5DII is great for scenery, interviews, architecture anything fairly static but not for sport, motor racing etc.

Also, in all this comparing this and that... it just depends on what the client wants(where the money is coming from)... I have clients still asking for DV tapes at the end of the shoot, so I will use a DSR500... It is still a broadcast standard, albeit a low standard...

In the future there will be a camera that can take PL, ZF, B4 and EF lenses, shoot in any format at 720p-6K, 1500fps, 4Ch mixer and only require a 32GB flash card for a days shoot. Oh and it will come in at around $5k... :)

Posted 3 years ago #
jonnyapple

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Good points, reef. No need for overkill, I guess.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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reef said:
In the future there will be a camera that can take PL, ZF, B4 and EF lenses, shoot in any format at 720p-6K, 1500fps, 4Ch mixer and only require a 32GB flash card for a days shoot. Oh and it will come in at around $5k... :)

In the future time travel will be possible too :^)

Posted 3 years ago #
valonqe

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We can only compare RED footage from any DSLR in terms of looks, as far as resolution goes DSLRS have to catch up. We are not that far from seeing all the goodies on RED in DSLRs. Things are getting smaller and faster now a days.

You mention 120fps reef on the RED which I to agree is good for some interesting shots. How about Nikon P100 which shots full HD and up to 120fps in standard and it's only a P&S camera?

This tells me that we are getting there. Closest to the motion camera at the moment is Canon 7D which offers you everything in terms of 35mm motion academy frame including different frame rates for filming dramas and slow pace narrative films, which doesn't require fast crazy panning.

Of course what kills all that beautiful image is the compression but there are ways around it, Phillip Bloom test it on a big screen and said that it looked grate.

So we are nearly there just it requires a final push from us to make a big deal with NIkon that if they don't bring the Full HD with different frame rate firmware we are going to hack it and not tell Nikon about it, make them beg for it for torturing us... :-)

I just hate to deal with Canon users when Nikon brings out the Full HD cameras, when they say they copied us we did it first. ;-)

Posted 3 years ago #
kyoshinikon

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jbl said:
But why do you need to show your friends such a big print? can't you just show them your pictures on your monitor?

I sell prints in a gallery. I can't afford to giant prints for friends or I would be shooting a D3x!

I feel like the industry is leaning towards full frame video (not 1080p but 4000+px) and that will rise to more amateurs who shoot video and select the best frame.

I am not against video (I actually love it in my camera) but as a still photographer. I don't want a million cool buttons that don't do still photography and nothing that improves the quality of still photography. There are tools (probably very simple and inexpensive to add but will not be added) that would be a much greater help to still photographers than a size up in video..

Posted 3 years ago #
valonqe

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kyoshinikon said:

I feel like the industry is leaning towards full frame video (not 1080p but 4000+px) and that will rise to more amateurs who shoot video and select the best frame.

I am not against video (I actually love it in my camera) but as a still photographer. I don't want a million cool buttons that don't do still photography and nothing that improves the quality of still photography.

IT is true kyoshi and I totally agree with you, but since the features that we are debating here are features that don't require extra buttons to be added onto the camera but features that can be fixed through firmware teak.

All other features on the picture side stay the same. To my understanding Nikon doesn't have to compromise any thing for the video. Since we have some sort of video already why not fix it as it should be? 1080p is not that important when you compare that to not being able to set the ISO and shutter speed on d90 and d300s.

This was the main reason why people started the debate on this two cameras and now we feel that the time passed buy 1080p should be there, off course not compromising the photography side.

You mention the video is more related to armatures, which it may be true if you compare it between a pro photographer and a person who uses the camera as a hobby ( me ). But the video has introduced a great interest amongst filmmakers which they want the DSLRs that shoot video for filming, and to them D-movie it is a priority.

SO all the requests that you read here regarding the 1080p are from those people that use the video feature professionally and they want that feature perfected.

A Lot of people that bought cameras for the purpose of shooting video before the D3s came around can't afford to spend extra cash just to buy the D3s which it can shoot video manually.

For a lot of people including me the D90 and D300s are the best camera for a lot of purposes but the video mode on both of them is lacking the most important think which makes the reason as to why is there and that is to be able to choose the ISO and shutter manually.

Posted 3 years ago #
Pierre

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I have a probably very stupid question to ask but being new to the movie-over-DSLR I don't feel too shy to ask.

I saw the quite shocking video of a DSLR mirror flipping up and down crazy full-speed for a full minute or so, does that mean that if I wanted to take a few hours long video on my future D700s, it would exhaust its 150K activations life span?

My hart would just stop to see my 3K$ toy flipping likes this and if that’s the case, who with a straight mind would ever want of movie capacity on any DSLR at $1000 per hours? This just can’t be right! Or is it? I can comprehend movie on an EVIL but on a DSLR?

What is it I do not understand?

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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When taking video the mirror stays up. It only moves up and down while taking still photos. The reason the mirror is there is to direct the image up into the optical viewfinder. When you press the shutter release button the mirror flips up and the shutter opens to expose the film or digital sensor to light. The mirror stays up for as long as the shutter stays open. For example 1 second or 1/500th of a second.

EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras don't have mirrors. They simple turn the sensor "on or off" to record an image. Liveview in a DSLR works similar to this in that you get a continuous image electronically on the LCD straight from the digital sensor. In essence your LCD becomes the viewfinder. Hence the name electronic viewfinder.

Oh and video on DSLRs is limited to about 5 minutes. So if you want to record something for 30 minutes, then you're going to have to restart recording every 5 minutes. It's not like a dedicated video camera that just keeps recording until you stop it after 30 minutes or you run out of video tape/memory space.
On a DSLR you'd have to take those six 5minute clips and edit them together into a 30 minute video.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Here's a slow motion video showing the aperture (on the left), mirror, and shutter (on the right) taking a picture.

[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Video Plugin

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Posted 3 years ago #
Pierre

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Thanks Niko: I thought the mirror needed to flip for the autofocus/aperture/exposure tracking to work while taking DSLR movies. That just shows the depth of my ignorance. In the video you provide why then the D3 need to flip its mirror 11 times per second? Why not in this mode, leave the mirror up and just use the camera in EVIL mode? Wouldn't a one second click count for 11 activations? Is this just to let you follow the action thought the view finder?

This brings another question in my mind (just for the sake of asking), what happen at the 150K activation lifespan boundary? Can you just change a module and you’re as good as new? Or the camera is just good for trash? How much such a repair could cost on a D700?

If Nikon was to go in the FF EVIL territory, what would then happen to my FF lenses investment? Would they be obsolete when I switch from D700 to FF EVIL body? I read the FF lenses are bulky just to accommodate the dept needed for the mirror and EVIL lenses could be a lot smaller at the same performance.

Posted 3 years ago #
NikoDoby

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Yes if the mirror didn't flip back down you'd be staring through a totally black viewfinder. If you were trying to photograph a bird in flight, for example, even though 11 frames per second is very quick, you wouldn't be able to pan and follow the bird. The mirror also directs light into the small auto focus and metering sensors. That method is called "phase detection". It's very fast and very accurate for the most part.

Other cameras, such as compact point & shoot and mirrorless EVIL models, use a different method for auto focus called "contrast detect". Focus is achieved by measuring the amount of contrast on the image sensor itself. This is method is much slower than phase detect. This is why DSLRs focus so much fast than point & shoot cameras.

Some DSLRs such as the D5000, D90, D300, use both methods. When in "normal" mode they use the reflex mirror to focus with phase detection. When in liveview mode the mirror stays up and they use contrast detection to focus off of the image sensor. That's why focus is so slow in liveview and also why there is no auto focus while in video mode on some DSLRs.

As for the lens part of your question, a full frame EVIL camera doesn't necessarily require a new set of lenses. The distance from the back of the lens to the image sensor is less on an EVIL camera but If Nikon were to ever make a mirrorless "DSLR" they would make it compatible with existing lenses. The easiest way to do that is to add an adapter.

The reason others such as Panasonic and Olympus have developed new lenses for their EVIL cameras is because their image sensors are smaller than a DSLR sensor but still larger than a point & shoot sensor. So in order to maintain the small size of their cameras they needed to make small lenses too. They could have just used large DSLR lenses but that would have defeated the purpose of having a small "point & shoot" camera with interchangeable lenses.

Posted 3 years ago #