where there’s smoke there’s forum fire
ChrisLange said:
The fact that a 40 year old camera is easier, more intuitive, and faster to use than a 2 year old camera is a crying shame.
For you, that is. Chris, look at yourself: You work almost exclusively with old film bodies. Give me a Nikon F4, and I'll bet you within 5 minutes I'll put it down for my D300. Why? Because I work almost exclusively with modern digital bodies. In other words, you're just not used to it.
ChrisLange said:
I know they need to maintain their bottom line, I just wish users of certain types of equipment (prime lenses, rangefinders) weren't left out in the cold by Nikon. The Nikon SP was a fantastic camera, and it's a shame it hasn't been updated to a digital counterpart with modernised lenses as well. What about focusing on build quality over useless features like the D3000's stupid guide mode? I tried using a classmate's D60 the other day and put it down within 20 minutes to switch for my Nikkormat FT2. The fact that a 40 year old camera is easier, more intuitive, and faster to use than a 2 year old camera is a crying shame. We need an innovative new body design incorporating both analog input via knob, as well as digital visual feedback in the viewfinder (or some permutation thereof), not just better sensors.
But for the market Nikon is targeting with their entry level models, this is the direction they need to go in. The average consumer who knows little to nothing about cameras but wants a DSLR, doesn't care about build quality. They want cheap and guide modes and "cool" features like a guide mode. They can market a guide mode easier than they can market "excellent build quality" to the everyday consumer. Many of these people buying their first DSLR are children of the digital age only. Electronics is what the understand better so electronic features are what's needed to get them into the market.
This is in part why I almost never recommend the entry level models for those looking to get into photography even if they don't plan to be serious. These entry level models aren't targeted at people like us. They are targeted at people who make Nikon money to give us better stuff at our level.
alphanikonrex said:
For you, that is. Chris, look at yourself: You work almost exclusively with old film bodies. Give me a Nikon F4, and I'll bet you within 5 minutes I'll put it down for my D300. Why? Because I work almost exclusively with modern digital bodies. In other words, you're just not used to it.
That too, excellent point alpha.
Haha alphasprout, I would actually be interested in seeing what would happen if you used an F4. The viewfinder is the clearest and practically best of pretty much any Nikon SLR ever made, digital or otherwise. A mode is immediately accessible via the top plate like any other SLR, as is M, P and S. Shutter advance modes are around the shutter collar, also immediately accessible, without even having to look at them (including the silent advance). ISO is on a knurled ring to the left of the prism, and is immediately settable.
Even the Nikkormat FT2 has a stepless meter read out on the top plate, I'd like to see another digital body that has one of those...
I am used to them though, I use a D300 quite frequently, and of course the D70s as well, they just feel like crap compared to the older bodies.
(Shhh, don't tell anyone but I've been looking at F4's on eBay.)
Me, with an F4? Despicable!
You people are insane. Guide mode is a brilliant addition. Lots of cameras go click when you push the button thingy. Nikon is trying to get people to start digging a little deeper because nikon knows that this will sell them some gear down the road. I know they had to can their top optical engenier to pay for it but hey... Omletts need eggs.
The dslr movement has played out. Now it's up to nikon to start reselling to their existing customer base. Hence the guide "the first crack is free" mode.
chris - either You like it or not, d3000 is a beginners camera and it's not crafted to last long... anyway in a period of 2 years the technology behind this camera is obsolete anyway. Guide mode - great addition, at least if You don't know anything about slr's You can learn a little bit. During my entire life I've learned that this what is obvious for me, doesn't have to be for someone else.
I am a bit predjudiced in my ways of thinking, but it is frustrating to see nearly every DSLR left on little green box mode, or Programmed auto. These don't help you as a photographer if you don't know the fundamentals. Guide mode would be more useful if it said things like "hey! the meter isn't always right, try varying your exposure in manual or with exp. compensation to see the effects" or tried to get the photographer to experiment with manual mode...
You have to understand that the D3000 is aimed at non-photographers, people who have used point and shoot cameras, but find them limiting in terms of image quality. Not everyone who buys a camera wants to be a photographer, some people just want to pick up the camera, point and shoot, end of story.
PB PM said:
You have to understand that the D3000 is aimed at non-photographers, people who have used point and shoot cameras, but find them limiting in terms of image quality. Not everyone who buys a camera wants to be a photographer, some people just want to pick up the camera, point and shoot, end of story.
...but want better image quality as you said and they will at least get that with an entry level DSLR. End of story.
Don't care much for entry level DSLRs, but I frequently dream about a digital
version of the FM3a....the DM3a perhaps. I'd sell my soul for one of those!
you and me both :)
A mirrorless Nikon, a la the new Samsung NX10, would give you a very similar "film like" body. However then we "film guys" would complain about losing the mirror wouldn't we? :^)
The viewfinder is half the film body experience! I don't want anything to do with those half-assed electronic viewfinders.
ChrisLange said:
I know they need to maintain their bottom line, I just wish users of certain types of equipment (prime lenses, rangefinders) weren't left out in the cold by Nikon. The Nikon SP was a fantastic camera, and it's a shame it hasn't been updated to a digital counterpart with modernised lenses as well. What about focusing on build quality over useless features like the D3000's stupid guide mode? I tried using a classmate's D60 the other day and put it down within 20 minutes to switch for my Nikkormat FT2. The fact that a 40 year old camera is easier, more intuitive, and faster to use than a 2 year old camera is a crying shame. We need an innovative new body design incorporating both analog input via knob, as well as digital visual feedback in the viewfinder (or some permutation thereof), not just better sensors.
You know Analog Chris, I think that you have made one great point, Nikon should make a classic DSLR, I would think with the look of a FM2, silver body, modern features, but the right manual controls also, incl split screen focusing
Pete
bmxdad said:
You know Analog Chris, I think that you have made one great point, Nikon should make a classic DSLR, I would think with the look of a FM2, silver body, modern features, but the right manual controls also, incl split screen focusingPete
Something like a Leica S2 with a F-mount would be pretty cool, although at 1/16th the price would be nice.
The S2 is sweet, but still not really what I'm talking about. I mean like...a digital FE2/F3 or Nikkormat FT3, now that would be fantastic.
ChrisLange said:
The S2 is sweet, but still not really what I'm talking about. I mean like...a digital FE2/F3 or Nikkormat FT3, now that would be fantastic.
I don't think you can do a analog digital SLR without a LCD of some sort. Yes, you could store it in a CF card and look at it when you "develop" your photos in your computer, but that's way too old fashioned and I don't think anyone would want the inconveniences of film again. Plus there's the issue of white balance. No, I feel that there will at least still be a LCD and a joystick/selector of some sort with a couple extra buttons in addition to the usual, like DOF preview, ISO, shutter speed, aperture...
Which brings up a good point. Will G lenses work with the "manual" DSLR? I would assume they have to, right?
soap said:
Outside the motion lenses, how many F-mount lenses on the market have an image circle large enough to cover a 30x45mm sensor?
I mean like a blend of digital and analog the way Leica does it, not as in a medium format DSLR.
Ok, I'll bite, what makes the S2 a blend of analog and digital?
It really isn't, the only "analog" aspect it has is a shutters speed knob instead of a command dial. That and a clear viewfinder.
soap said:
Ok, I'll bite, what makes the S2 a blend of analog and digital?
ChrisLange said:
It really isn't, the only "analog" aspect it has is a shutters speed knob instead of a command dial. That and a clear viewfinder.
Yeah, the shutter speed knob and the ISO knob on the top panel. Pretty much that's it.
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