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Shooting FX and cropping to DX

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sevencrossing

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msmoto said:
@ kolja

..........One thought about a cropped sensor is if one is shooting with a long lens, the smaller sensor gives a 1.5 magnification factor. Now, with a full sized sensor like the D600, one can shoot and crop, although I am a believer that shooting and cropping is not as effective as using a crop sensor initially............

I personally love the ability to crop in post

and for me a huge advantage of shooting with a D800

but what do others think?

or should this be in D400 the thread?

Posted 6 months ago #
msmoto

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I think this is a great topic.... I might learn from it. And I do crop with the D4, sometimes to far smaller than the DX size. So, I understand the idea, but just want a DX like a D400.

Of course as I write this, the D800 sticks in my mind, or maybe the revision of the D800...

There will be some new crop sensor bodies on the market in the next few months. And the mirrorless APS-C is a great idea, if only I can find one which will accept all the "F" mount lenses and function fully.

Oh, I think I will modify the thread title so as to make it more clear. If you do not like the title, let me know.

Posted 6 months ago #
PB PM

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If you have the d3x, D800 or D600 cropping for DX isn't bad, but on the earlier 12MP FX bodies you loose a lot of resolution shooting that way. I always crop in post, rather than the DX crop mode, because you have little to gain by doing so.

Posted 6 months ago #
sevencrossing

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msmoto said:
Oh, I think I will modify the thread title so as to make it more clear. If you do not like the title, let me know.

My question is ( apart form cost )why buy a dx when you have a more flexing cropping option, by shooting in FX and cropping

but I think we have disused this in the D400 thread

Posted 6 months ago #
msmoto

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Crop sensor advantages:

File size?
Less expensive to build for the same performance.
Shooting at 4 FPS is different than 8 FPS. The crop sensor mirror is easier to move fast....

However, i must say that in action sports of all types, long, long lens, sometimes cropping is the only way to go as it is not always easy to get the subject in the frame where one wants it. Big advantage for full frame.

I will be looking to see what others say about this idea....

Posted 6 months ago #
SkintBrit

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Most of you know I hate post editing with a vengeance, and that's why I have been known to use the DX crop facility on my FF bodies. As msmoto originally stated, it is obviously better to use a DX if possible, so as not to loose so many of your FF megapixels, but as sevencrossing has said I love the flexibility of it. PB PM is correct however, it must make more sense to shoot in FF and then crop later, as once you've cropped "in camera" those discarded pixels are lost forever.

If I had a D800 I would use it all the time!

Posted 6 months ago #
sevencrossing

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msmoto said:
Crop sensor advantages:

Shooting at 4 FPS is different than 8 FPS. The crop sensor mirror is easier to move fast....

????

The fastest DSLR Dx camera is the the D300s 7 frames per second continuous shooting
The comparable Fx camera is the D3s
9-frames-per-second shooting rate in FX format, 11 fps in DX crop

The fps seems, in part, to be governed by the speed of the process and its ability to write to the Storage media and in the case of D700 the amount of battery power

that said, get rid of the mirror and the Nikon 1 V2 gets up to 15 fps with continuous autofocus and up to 60 fps with fixed-point AF this may in part be due to relatively small files sizes

the D4 manages 10 fps full frame

Posted 6 months ago #
Yetibuddha

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Well, in terms of cropping, one's compositions out in the field may not be perfect, particularly in smaller scale landscapes with lots of brush in the image area. So, it is just a natural for me to crop if needed. For wildlife, it seems that a big factor is megapixels on subject, so when one has to crop, e.g., a grizzly bear at 100 meters is still small on a 300 mm lens on FX, cropping will occur. So what gives one the most megapixels on subject. For me, I now have a D800 so I can crop pretty good after the image is captured.

Posted 6 months ago #
Nikoner

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Regardless of FX or DX I crop in post processing (even if its by just a little bit) to get a tight straight shot, as its not always possible to get ideal composition at the spruce of the moment especially with sports. With D800 loosing megapixels is not an issue. Although I hate to post process I have to, as I have a tendency to shoot slightly lopsided, so have to straighten the shot anyways that's a crop in itself.

Having used DX and now FX, I don't see any motivation to use DX ever.

Posted 6 months ago #
tcole1983

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I am curious with comparable megapixels in a FX and DX body if there is an advantage to FX anymore. If you can have the extra reach from DX plus cropping if needed, if that is comparable to FX. If you shoot longer shots and crop much it seems like DX would be a better option still and provide extra cropping room if needed. I guess it all depends on how much you are cropping and what you are shooting though...say the D600 vs D3200 or D5200. I think then the flexibility can go both ways. If you shoot birds and animals DX still seems relevant and landscapes or other stuff might be better to shoot FX. That is all aside form low light performance, ISO, dynamic range or whatever else FX provides over DX. Strictly subject wise...

I personally rarely crop...of course I only have 12.3 MP to work with, but that is one thing I really try to get right when I shoot is the composition of the photo. I bet I only have a handful of shots that I have cropped out of 10,000+.

Posted 6 months ago #
TaoTeJared

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The advantage of DX is that the pixels are more compact and can record more detail. That is at native ISOs though. Once you move up, then the good ole noise reduction engine starts up and you will lose detail. That is where FX will give an advantage. I ran across a video of a photog who shot stock macro shots with a Canon G12 because of the extra DOF and still have the ability to have the flashes. There is a use for every format.

I'm not sure "to DX" is a needed descriptor. Everyone crops, but having 36mp to crop from is much better than 12mp for sure. When some have concerns of the "huge MP" I just laugh, at 36mp I can crop 100% and still have a perfect 8x10. You can't do that with sub 20mp images.

Posted 6 months ago #
R8R

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I've done a little CH shooting in crop mode with the D3. The files are "only" 5 megapixels but, it's 5 damn nice megapixels.

Would I shoot at 11fps if I knew I wanted to print the results at poster size? Nope. It does make for some nice fast sequences for average screen viewing though.

Posted 6 months ago #
msmoto

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@ sevencrossing... OK, to clarify...the D800 and D300s are basically the bodies I was comparing. If it costs $XXX to build a DX sized mirror which moves at 8 FPS, then an FX mirror for the same cost will in principle move slower as it is larger and therefore going to have to be of less expensive materials. But, the critical factor includes as well the time required to hold the images in the buffer.

Even so, the D800 will only do 5 FPS in DX crop mode while a dedicated DX, i.e., the D300s is much faster at 8 FPS.

Hope this clarifies my thinking

Posted 6 months ago #
SkintBrit

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I thought the FPS speed of a camera was more to do with data handling and model supremacy, than the physical constraints of the hardware?

Posted 6 months ago #
SquamishPhoto

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It is. Moving a mirror fast is not a huge technical feat.

Posted 6 months ago #
sevencrossing

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data handling is IMHO the D800s only big weakness; I think this will addressed in the D900

Do we need a new thread ?

( should I buy a D4 or wait for the D900) :)

Posted 6 months ago #
msmoto

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This is still about DX vs. FX, but I should never have gotten into this discussion......the D800 is looking like it may well be my "DX" camera, shooting in crop mode. And, in FX, the data handling of the D800 is most likely the issue one must deal with. It does raise the question as to why if this is the limit, shooting in DX does not give one 8 or 9 FPS.....

Sevencrossing...if you go the route for the D4, you will find it is an incredible camera. Especially at the ISO 12,800.

Posted 6 months ago #
sevencrossing

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msmoto said:

sevencrossing you go the route for the D4, you will find it is an incredible camera. Especially at the ISO 12,800.

when i win the lottery I will immediately buy a D4 and 400mm f 2.8 ( and 24mm f 1.4)
the D800 pays for itself, doing commerical photography
but I dont need 10fps or ISO 12,000 for real estate or studio work

Posted 6 months ago #
donaldejose

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"FX cropping to DX" compared to what? The D7000's 16 mp? I assume compared to shooting the image with the best DX sensor in the first place. After the higher level DX sensors (D7200 and D400) are out we will be able to compare image quality of DX to FX cropped to DX (or DX lens on FX body). Certainly the D800's 36 megapixels allows for plenty of cropping, especially if you are only going to print up to 8x10 or view on your HDTV or computer monitor which only displays about 2 mb (two mp). However, DxOMark rates the 24mp D3200 sensor very high and we can expect the sensors in the D7200 and D400 to be rated even higher. Consequently, it seems highly likely the best DX sensors will significantly outperform a DX crop from an FX sensor. Pixels rule and you will not be able to get 24 mp in a DX size crop from FX in the foreseeable future.

Posted 6 months ago #
sevencrossing

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donaldejose said:
Pixels rule and you will not be able to get 24 mp in a DX size crop from FX in the foreseeable future.

Has any one compared a D3200 with a cropped D800

who knows, maybe we will get a D4x but will any one be a able to afford it

Posted 6 months ago #
Yetibuddha

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What would be the advantage of shooting an FX in DX crop mode?

Posted 6 months ago #
tcole1983

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Yetibuddha said:
What would be the advantage of shooting an FX in DX crop mode?

Not sure there is an advantage, but the flexibility. Would create smaller files, little faster FPS, might not have to crop in post if composition is correct, and "extended reach".

Posted 6 months ago #
El_Pickerel

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Most of my dance photography with the D800 is at 1.5x crop. My original idea was that these are not shots that will likely never be printed and I can save some space, but I also like gaining the effective focal length increase, and greater DOF at wide apertures as a result. Having the AF sensor cover almost the entire frame is a nice benefit, too. Another thing I did not consider is the crop line in the camera and having the viewfinder provide information outside the frame. Like with a rangefinder, I can see what is happening just outside the frame. With unpredictable, rapid action this is very useful.

Posted 6 months ago #
donaldejose

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Good point about being able to see what is happening just outside the framing. This could be useful in sports also because it can help you anticipate shots.

Posted 6 months ago #
Nikoner

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donaldejose said:
Good point about being able to see what is happening just outside the framing. This could be useful in sports also because it can help you anticipate shots.

In theory may be, and that too if you are going to a take just a few shots and call it a day.

In practice a sports photographer normally shoots 1000's of images per game (i.e. within a scope of 2 hours), and for all those shots to be squinting at the 1.5 crop box and also keeping the same eye for possible action from either end outside that 1.5 crop but within the viewfinder, and also keeping your other eye out for possible action elsewhere, or some dangerous projectile flying out at you, or you stepping on someone/thing else, or bumping into the referee, etc... Believe me I tried it just for kicks, it’s not worth the trouble, and neither required for a seasoned photographer. And as stated in my previous post, I simply do not see any merit in shooting dx on an fx format.

Posted 6 months ago #