According to a patent that has just been published!
Story:
http://photorumors.com/2009/12/17/sony-and-panasonic-patents/#comments
Sony developing Foveon Like CMOS Sensor!
(27 posts) (9 voices)-
Posted 3 years ago #
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I think this type of sensor is the future. The question is whether this implementation is practical and can be brought to market. And if so, how long before we see it. I think it's interesting in it's a 135 page PA. There's a lot of specific details, such as fabrication methods, which make me think Sony has thought this out.
Posted 3 years ago # -
astrophotographer said:
There's a lot of specific details, such as fabrication methods, which make me think Sony has thought this out.I would hope so, lol.
What are the chances we see this "Foveon Sony" in an upcoming Nikon? High megapixels with low noise high ISO and awesome color rendition!
Posted 3 years ago # -
What are the chances we see this "Foveon Sony" in an upcoming Nikon? High megapixels with low noise high ISO and awesome color rendition!
I think slim. Sony's a competitor now. Why would they help Nikon? My worry is that this technology becomes successful and Nikon (or canon) can't match it. In 3-5 years Sony could be the DSLR leader.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Nobody's gonna stop me from hacking a Sony sensory into my D300 though!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Astro all of Nikon's current and past DSLRs except the D2H/D3 series/D700 use Sony sensors already. Sony still makes money off of Nikon's DSLRs. They don't have to worry about out selling Nikon since they make money off of them anyway. Nikon benefits from using Sony's sensors because the more Sony makes the less production cost for Nikon.
Sony has always been a sensor power house. They supply to Nikon, canon, and just about everyone else as well. They have a long long way to improve their DSLRs though. The only bodies that stand out are the a850/900 and only because of price and sensor resolution, not image quality or ergonomics.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Canon's use them too? I though they made their own sensor! But Sony would make more by selling the sensor to Nikon probably.
Well then no need for me to hack anything :^)
Posted 3 years ago # -
Some of canon's point & shoots have used Sony sensors. Not their DSLRs. The G11 is rumored to be an example. I would love to see what Nikon can do with this type of "foveon" sensor. Or is Nikon still working on it's LBCAST sensor design?
Actually some believe the current D3/S sensor is in fact an evolution of Nikon's LBCAST design.
Posted 3 years ago # -
NikoDoby said:
Astro all of Nikon's current and past DSLRs except the D2H/D3 series/D700 use Sony sensors already. Sony still makes money off of Nikon's DSLRs. They don't have to worry about out selling Nikon since they make money off of them anyway. Nikon benefits from using Sony's sensors because the more Sony makes the less production cost for Nikon.Sony has always been a sensor power house. They supply to Nikon, canon, and just about everyone else as well. They have a long long way to improve their DSLRs though. The only bodies that stand out are the a850/900 and only because of price and sensor resolution, not image quality or ergonomics.
That not my understanding. All reports I've read say Sony manufactures Nikon's chip. That they are not Sony's designs, they're Nikon's. So yes, they may continue making chips for Nikon but they may not allow Nikon to use this technology.
Posted 3 years ago # -
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astrophotographer said:
That not my understanding. All reports I've read say Sony <b>manufactures</b> Nikon's chip. That they are not Sony's designs, they're Nikon's. So yes, they may continue making chips for Nikon but they may not allow Nikon to use this technology.Nope Nikon (and others) buy Sony's chips off the shelf and work there magic on them. Look at the D3X. It's the "same" Sony sensor found on the a850/900 yet Sony doesn't come any where near the image quality of the D3X. I believe you're thinking of the D3 series sensor which is an exclusive Nikon design but is NOT built by Sony. That sensor is more likely made by Renesas.
Posted 3 years ago # -
NikoDoby said:
Look at the D3X. It's the "same" Sony sensor found on the a850/900 yet Sony doesn't come any where near the image quality of the D3X. I believe you're thinking of the D3 series sensor which is an exclusive Nikon design but is NOT built by Sony. That sensor is more likely made by Renesas.Not according to Nikon. Are you saying Nikon is lying?
http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00RkHH
Of course how much technology does Sony and Nikon share in the manufacturing.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I think Rob Piontek says it best in the post right under the one you're linking to:
"Could this not be paraphrased as "It's basically the same, but we we need to make it sound special for this press release"? I mean, would anyone really expect Nikon to say 'Yeah, you can get the chip that comes in our new $8000 camera in a Sony that costs way less"?"
Nikon is charging close to $8,000 for a camera with the "same" sensor as the $2000 and $2700 Sony a850 and a900. On such an expensive flag ship camera of course they aren't going to admit it's the same sensor.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Oh and the machines Sony uses to make their sensors are more than likely Nikon steppers.
Posted 3 years ago # -
So far Niko, you haven't presented anything to back up your claim that the D3x and the Sony use the same sensor. Do you have anything besides your opinion?
Also if they are the same chip how come the D3x is described as 2.8 MP/cm² and Sony's A850 is 2.9 MP/cm²?
Posted 3 years ago # -
OMG, who really cares!!!
True Statement: Nikon sometimes uses Sony sensors in their cameras.
True Statement: Nikon's cameras pawn Sony's!
End of story :^)
Posted 3 years ago # -
From Rob Galbraith - " For now, it's only possible to note that the D3X's sensor shares certain key specifications with the Sony-made image sensor in the Sony DSLR-A900, including size (24mm x 35.9mm), image dimensions at full resolution (6048 x 4032 pixels), the number of readout channels (12) and pixel pitch (5.94µm)."
AnandTech.com - "Sharp-eyed readers will notice that the D3x sensor specifications exactly match those of the recently introduced Sony A900. Nikon makes no claims to have designed or manufactured the D3x sensor so it is likely the same sensor as the Sony A900 with customized Nikon image processing."
Even Ken R. says the D3X is an overpriced D3 with the "same" sensor as the a900. That's why he didn't buy one.
Posted 3 years ago # -
The Foveon chip has been around for several years now. Sigma has been using Foveon sensors in there DSLR line and the newer compact single lens model they have. There has been little said about the sensors superiority for better color over CMOS sensors.
Posted 3 years ago # -
The X3 Foveon sensor in the SD and DP series Sigma cameras is a CMOS, however Sigma/Foveon don't have the resources to develop the sensor like Sony does. I'm just calling it a "Foveon Sony" since the patent is referring to a similar vertical color filter and not actually the X3 Foveon.
Regular film works in the same way to capture images. In other words Sony is developing a sensor arrangement that is "technically superior" to todays Bayer arrangement.
Here are some interactive X3 marketing links that give an idea of how collecting color info at every pixel works and some of the benefits.
Select the scene (text,fabric, or cloth) and then move the slider all the way to the right
http://www.foveon.com/files/image_comparisonv2_2.swfAn animated swf.
http://www.foveon.com/files/ccd_vs_x3_photondropv5.swfPosted 3 years ago # -
Sigma acquired Foveon Company a while ago and I doubt anyone else will use this not so great low ISO 4Mpix technology.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I understand the X3 advantage over the mosaic pattern of all the other sensors. It looks like a slam dunk but mb must be right about poor noise problems or other problems with the X3 sensor, otherwise Foveon X3 technology would be a bigger story. Maybe Sony has figured out the bugs.
Posted 3 years ago # -
as for nikon using sony's a850/900 sensor in d3x I also came across this info, can't tell You now where it was, but it was a reliable source (some photo magazine);
why is nikon buying sensors from competitors? economics, is the easiest answer - it's much cheaper to buy a product and implement it into Your own product than to create the whole infrastructure to create the same product; is it a thread for us, Nikon users - not at all, look at the analogy with cars - only few companies manufacture parts, and a lot of companies are using them; even more, same engine can behave differently in two different cars, exactly the same way is with sensors.
as for the foveon sensors, let's see what future will bring us
Posted 3 years ago # -
The point is that Faveon technology is could hardly achieve higher sensitivity because light must penetrate one or two layers. Surface light sensitive elements will always have the advantage.
Current limit of Faveon CMOS sensors is around 4Mpix of actual image, Nikon could make non Bayer interpolated D3x sensor with straight 4 light sensitive elements per pixel and get 6Mpix one with same or better color rendering and much higher sensitivity.Posted 3 years ago # -
The Faveon tech is nice but I think many people dont realise that you have to subtract some "light energy" (not because it has to penetrate the silicon) because the upper layers registers the energy of lower layers as well. so the "blue" layer registers green and red and the green registers red as well as green.
And if you think about it.. a 12mp dx like the D300 is only 3mp.
Posted 3 years ago # -
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