Here are a couple I took with the 18-105 on the D90 (edit: I guess I lied. That first shot was with my D300). I'm not including any from the wider range, but it has similar performance to the 18-70 (which I used for a long time) or the 18-55s I've tried. I put them up full size if you click on them if you'd like to pixel peep.

I agree with Pete on the D90/18-105/50 1.8 kit. I think that's the best value in the advanced amateur range right now.

80mm at 1/30s

105mm lit mainly by bounce flash

GabrielWolff said:
OK, so after making the guys at the local electronix shop crazy by trying out these two models for 5 hours, sleeping over it, coming back the next day for another session of taking photos of employees... I guess the vari-angle screen is something I can get used to live without.

So the D90 it is. Which means waiting a month (and a few extra concerts) longer. But the camera IS better...

But of course I came back with a few more questions for those of you who did not yet give up on me :)

1) I saw a few shops selling the D90 with AF-S lenses. Did I misunderstand you guys or is that a waste of money? Why would you have AF in a lens if you have it in the body?
2) For those of you with glasses - do you shoot with your glasses? I found it inconvenient to look through the view finder with glasses. Is that something to get used to?
3) A good recommendation for a 18-55 lens?

Thanks again :)

I still think you will be happy with the D90, yes the D5000 is slightly cheaper.

Anyway like Johnny said, Maybe get it with the 18-105 Kit lens and for the the none AF-S lenses, I would get a 50mm F1.8 lens, This is a lens that will not AF on a D5000 and it will do fine on a D90, you can get one for $150 area. They are fun, you can simply not take the same pictures with a consumer Zoom lens. All my last few posts has been done with that lens. But for every day use you would properly have the 18-105 on your camera

Pete

just a quick update, D5k is listed as $550 for body only on amazon!! I might even buy one at that price!!

I still think you should get the 18-105 included in the kit with the D90, Gabriel. Compare the reviews/tests here. I think it's worth the extra money for the longer telephoto and better image quality.
18-105 VR: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1221/cat/13
18-55 VR: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1154/cat/13

as for glasses, You can buy rubber eyecup - this helps a lot

as for AF-S/AF glasses, well I will never change any of my AF-S glasses for AF, AF-S is fast and silent, where AF is slow and loud

IMHO - d90 is not a good camera for You, and d5000 will suite Your needs better, but it's Your choice

as for 18-55 lenses, there's only one worth mentioning 18-55 af-s vr is You want to go for nikon

NikoDoby said:
One more point about the AF-S versus AF that maybe what's confusing you. When you use a camera with an auto focus motor with a lens that already has a built in motor the camera's focus motor does nothing. The lens motor takes care of the focus. So if you only buy AF-S lenses then your camera is just carrying around extra weight that you don't need until you actually buy or use an AF lens.

Ingore- I saw just one of your posts :)

One more point about the AF-S versus AF that maybe what's confusing you. When you use a camera with an auto focus motor with a lens that already has a built in motor the camera's focus motor does nothing. The lens motor takes care of the focus. So if you only buy AF-S lenses then your camera is just carrying around extra weight that you don't need until you actually buy or use an AF lens.

I guess your still confused as to what AF-S and AF lenses are? Having the focus motor in the lens makes it faster to focus and quieter to use. You don't get that loud robotic sound of the gears turning. AF-S motors are for the most part almost silent. Also having the AF motors in the lens helps with camera battery life not to mention the camera itself can be smaller and lighter.

The only reason you'd want a camera with the AF motor is so that you can use "older" lenses. Nikon still sells new "old" AF design lenses but they will be updated to AF-S very soon or simply be discontinued. The benefit of having a camera with an auto focus motor is that you can buy older lenses used from ebay or a camera dealer.

The smaller viewfinder makes glasses difficult. Especially with an APS camera like both the D90 and D5000. This is were the variable lcd really helps. Full frame cameras like the D700 offer a bigger viewfinder because of the bigger sensor size. But you'll just have to get use to the D90s viewfinder. You can also buy a viewfinder magnifier like the DK-17M but you'll have to modify it to work with the D90.

I think you've gotten lots of recommendations of different lenses already. Perhaps if you explain to us why you want the 18-55 we can help you.

OK, so after making the guys at the local electronix shop crazy by trying out these two models for 5 hours, sleeping over it, coming back the next day for another session of taking photos of employees... I guess the vari-angle screen is something I can get used to live without.

So the D90 it is. Which means waiting a month (and a few extra concerts) longer. But the camera IS better...

But of course I came back with a few more questions for those of you who did not yet give up on me :)

1) I saw a few shops selling the D90 with AF-S lenses. Did I misunderstand you guys or is that a waste of money? Why would you have AF in a lens if you have it in the body?
2) For those of you with glasses - do you shoot with your glasses? I found it inconvenient to look through the view finder with glasses. Is that something to get used to?
3) A good recommendation for a 18-55 lens?

Thanks again :)

I just purchased Nikon D5000 body + AF-S 35mm F1.8 lense after returning Nikon D3000 + kit lens 18-55mm.
The lukewarm reviews for D3000 and the fact I did not like kit lens made me decide to return it. According to DXOmark.com the Nikon D90 & D5000 had best results for low light in APS-C format. I like to take pictures in available light without flash.

I am very happy with the D5000 and felt I did not need the extra features of D90. I admit top lcd would of been nice. In Canada D5000 body is $719 and D90 $1019.
Difference in price paid for AF-S 35mm lens.

Dan

tai, I just read your post on the primes thread from 16 hours ago, and it looks like I copied your comment there. I hadn't seen it when I wrote what I did here, but it's good to see someone else who feels the same way about it that I do.

GabrielWolff said:
Do you guys use primes a lot. I understand they are faster, but you are very much limited without the option of zooming in, no?
And would you buy second hand lenses? How long can a lens be trusted?

I use primes more than zooms overall. When I'm doing event shooting, I usually have a prime on one body and a zoom on another. I use primes that date all the way back to the 60s on my Nikons, though I shoot almost entirely AF for paid event photography. There are a lot of bad old primes, but there are also a decent number that are just as good as new ones.

GabrielWolff said:
And yet another question: You all mention prime lenses a lot. That surprises me as well. I can think of very few situations in which I would not need zoom [portrait sessions, mainly].

Do you guys use primes a lot. I understand they are faster, but you are very much limited without the option of zooming in, no?

And would you buy second hand lenses? How long can a lens be trusted?

Zooms are a fairly new addition to photography. I use zooms quite a bit but for some situations I need the extra light or want the shallow depth of field that a prime lens offers. And other times I feel like letting my legs do the zooming—you can call me crazy, but I think that moving to find the composition you want involves you more in the composition of a picture than just turning a zoom ring does.

I wouldn't have problems with older lenses if they've been treated well. The optical quality shouldn't get worse over time, but lens design has improved over the years.

GabrielWolff said:
Thanks Pete, for the very precise explanation. Just what I was looking for.

I understand the Focus issue. The DOF issue is new to me and I get it. But why can you get away with lower shutter speed? I mean: What's on the screen/view finder is only a representation of what's going on on the sensor, isn't it? So how is the shutter speed affected by the way you look at it?

P.S.: You're kidding about the photo taken by your son, eh? He didn't reallytake THAT photo at the age of 9...?!

Hi Gabriel my Grand Parents were German and I spoke German fluently when I was younger(but not anymore), I grew up in Denmark just a few KM from Germany

The shutter speed is affected by how steady you are holding the camera, so when your are looking at the screen your camera will move around more than if your are holding the camera against your eye and closer to your body, this can allow a lower shutter speed and a better aim

My son Mark has the use of my backup camera D80 and yes he actually took that picture. His toy Motorcycle was placed inside a photo tent on a black surface/back ground, flash on the out side fired by wireless remote, camera in M mode, but AF on for the 16-85 zoom lens. I was trying to show him what happens when you turn power up and down on the flash(vivitar 285) or move it closer or away from the side of the tent. He knows how to shoot, is slowly understanding what happens when you adjust aperture. Anyway he took a few hundred pictures of different toys, this is the one that I liked the best by far. Yes digital camera are great in allowing you take take lots of pictures and use your display to fine tune your picture

Using the flash off camera is also great for portrait pictures, the flash just fired straight in their face is not really the best way for a great picture. The D90 can control the SB 600 off camera, The 50mm F1.8 is a very Sharp lens and great for portrait, you might find the 18-200 lacking in that quality, you could also purchase the D90(D5000 if you have to) with this lens combo (18-55 VR and 55-200 VR) which are BTW very sharp, check reviews of them

I do use my liveview to take pictures, the leaf/bridge in the Photo-a-day was taken in liveview and it would have been easier if my screen on my D300 could Vari-angle like on the D5000 but I do without

To end this the 18-200 lens is not the best choice, it sounds like you want to get good at taking portraits, a flash could be of help to you.

So here is a starting kit idea:

D90/D5000 18-55 VR, 55-200 VR (this are often sold in kit/package price) 50 F1.8 (MF on D5000 and a SB 600 flash (D5000 can not control flash remotely by it self)

Whatever you get have fun with it, visit NR in the future and don't forget to submit a few pictures to the Photo-a-day

Pete

And yet another question: You all mention prime lenses a lot. That surprises me as well. I can think of very few situations in which I would not need zoom [portrait sessions, mainly].

Do you guys use primes a lot. I understand they are faster, but you are very much limited without the option of zooming in, no?

And would you buy second hand lenses? How long can a lens be trusted?

bmxdad said:To use your viewfinder gives your better control of your camera, you can get away with lower shutter speed, aim better, and if you need to MF you can see if you are getting the right thing in focus. And you can use the DOF(dept of Field) preview to see how much is in focus. I do use live view shooting only if I have to and sometimes on tripod studio shots

It is one of them jack of all trades but not really that great at specific tasks

Thanks Pete, for the very precise explanation. Just what I was looking for.

I understand the Focus issue. The DOF issue is new to me and I get it. But why can you get away with lower shutter speed? I mean: What's on the screen/view finder is only a representation of what's going on on the sensor, isn't it? So how is the shutter speed affected by the way you look at it?

P.S.: You're kidding about the photo taken by your son, eh? He didn't reallytake THAT photo at the age of 9...?!

NikoDoby said:Gabriel I don't understand what your referring to when you say Pentax LX? The LX was a film DSLR and it doesn't have an LCD screen which I assume is what you are referring to when you say viewfinder, correct? Are you talking about the Pentax digital KX?

Yeah, I'll explain that.

I am indeed referring to the LX, an analogue camera. The thing I liked about it a lot [and the reason I sticked to it for so long] is the possibility to hold the camera 20 cm beneath your head and only sporadically take a look through the "looking hole" ("Sucher" in German). Most other cameras require you to hold them on face level (or lower your face to camera level) in order to look through a "looking hole" that lets you look parallel to the ground. Especially in the case of portrait sessions that is an inconvenience, as your face is covered by the camera and communication with the portraited person is interrupted.

What I was asking is: Does any of you ever actually use the LCD screen/monitor for Live View? Or do you only use the view finder? In other words: do you ever hold the camera waist level [or just not right next to your eye] when shooting or do you always kneel when taking photos a meter above ground level?

Sorry for the complication, German is a native language to me, thus the incredibly complicated way to explain things. Comprehensibility is overrated ;)

Thanks for chiming in Mcammer. I think the best advice Gabriel can get is from people who actually own and use the D5000.

Gabriel I don't understand what your referring to when you say Pentax LX? The LX was a film DSLR and it doesn't have an LCD screen which I assume is what you are referring to when you say viewfinder, correct? Are you talking about the Pentax digital KX?

GabrielWolff said:
And here's another question:
I liked the Pentax LX I used so far mainly because of that feature: to be able to see from above how the frame looks. It seems like anyone with a digital camera is always using the viewfinder. As this seems like a head ache to me, there must be a darn good reason for this. If you're using AF, focus is not the reason.

Do YOU use the view finder? And if so - why? And how important is the screen resolution then?

Thx (and thanks for the 129450 comments you already posted :) It helps!)

G

Alright let me answer a few of them:

What is an SLR?

A single lens reflex (SLR) camera distinguishes itself from other cameras by enabling the photographer to see the image exactly as it will be captured on the film or sensor beforehand through a viewfinder. This is done via a reflecting mirror that passes the image through a pentaprism and onto an eyepiece through which the photographer finds the view. When the camera trigger is pulled, the mirror lifts out of the way, and the shutter opens up to let the light pass through onto the film or sensor, capturing the image. Now that we have a basic understanding of the mechanics of an SLR camera we can now discuss the sensor.

* 1) Lens
* 2) Primary Mirror
* 3) Primary Mirror During Snapshot
* 4) Focusing Screen
* 5) Pentaprism
* 6) Viewfinder Lens
* 7) Digital Sensor
* 8) Sensor Filter
* 9) Shutter
* 10) Relay Mirror
* 11) Autofocus System

The focus at this point is simply faster and better at getting it right than live view AF,

To use your viewfinder gives your better control of your camera, you can get away with lower shutter speed, aim better, and if you need to MF you can see if you are getting the right thing in focus. And you can use the DOF(dept of Field) preview to see how much is in focus. I do use live view shooting only if I have to and sometimes on tripod studio shots

For most pictures the build in flash will do and you can buy or make a diffuser to reduce the glare that they can make, but a larger external flash opens up a new world of exposure, I will show you picture my 9 yr old son took of his toy motorcycle

This could not be done with your build in flash

Anyway I am in Camera Sales and the D5000 is by far the best seller that we have, but I would recommend the D90 if you plan to more involved with photography, it is slightly better made, I would feel that the larger body is easier to control, The 18-200 lens is OK if that is all you plan to get, It is one of them jack of all trades but not really that great at specific tasks

Anyway this is maybe enough for this time

Pete

GabrielWolff said:
Is that something you would consider? Using lenses other than Nikon? Wouldn't Nikon lenses ALWAYS fit the best on Nikon cameras?

I'd consider some of them, but most of the companies Pete listed are actually making the switch to built-in focus motors, so I don't think that should be something to worry about. I think the cheap AF primes from Nikon are a more important consideration.

GabrielWolff said:
Manual shift? Automatic transmission?

shutter was making a car analogy.

GabrielWolff said:
How often does it happen that you use a flash, except for the "flash inside a silver umbrella" [yes, no clue how that is called in English :)]. Do you use a SB600-like flash a lot?

I use bounce flash quite often—this is where you point the hot-shoe flash so that it bounces off the ceiling or a wall or something (this won't work for concerts, though, since you'll want to capture the atmosphere including the lighting at the venue). On-camera flash is less useful on the D5000 than the D90 because you can't use it to trigger the nikon flashes remotely (SB-600 or SB-900). Because on-camera flash looks a bit unnatural when it's the main light source, the thing I usually use the on-camera flash for is to fill shadows in bright sunlight (a little ironic, I know, since you'd think there is a lot of light when the sun is shining).

GabrielWolff said:
Well, it's not just you guys. I find it really hard to hear anything good about the D5000 when it comes to comparing it to the D90. Makes me wonder how damn important the vari-angle screen is in the end... I think I have to try that in a store again :)

I'm sure it's nothing against the D5000, Gabriel. It's a great camera. I think what you're seeing is support for one of the most feature-packed cameras ever made in its price range. I think the D90 is worth the extra money just for its compatibility with the 50mm 1.8. The rest of what I think I've repeated here enough times I won't do it again.

And no, I don't work for Nikon. ;-)

edit: explained bounce flash.

Chiming in with some D5000 love.

I had to make the D90/D5000 decision this summer on short notice (trip + broken camera). To me, the D5000 has the internals of a D90 and comes a bit cheaper. The advantage of the D90, as I saw it at the time, was compatibility with a bunch of older lenses. I didn't have any lenses and figured I could just as easily buy the new (AF-S) lenses. The swivel screen of the D5000 seemed like it might be useful at times (see below). Certainly that is a trade-off for the higher pixel count of the D90's screen. Another feature missing on the D90 is Interval Timing. Could be fun, though I admit I've just played with it a few times on my D5000.

I don't regret my choice at all. After learning enough here to start changing settings (knowingly), I do see the advantage of D90's dials vs. D5000's menus. Oh well. The D90 package at the shop where I bought was $300-400 more, if I remember, because of the lens it came with (18-105?). I've put that savings into lenses I wanted more.

If it's the last camera you ever buy, go with the D90. Otherwise it's personal preference.

Swivel screen being put to use:

resulting shot:

Sure I use viewfinder, more than that I could live with a camera that doesn't have the back screen, but couldn't with one that doesn't have the viewfinder. As for the screen resolution, You don't need extra res to be able to compose Your picture properly. And although d5000 screen is not as good as the one in d90, it is still better than many screens from compact cameras.

And here's another question:
I liked the Pentax LX I used so far mainly because of that feature: to be able to see from above how the frame looks. It seems like anyone with a digital camera is always using the viewfinder. As this seems like a head ache to me, there must be a darn good reason for this. If you're using AF, focus is not the reason.

Do YOU use the view finder? And if so - why? And how important is the screen resolution then?

Thx (and thanks for the 129450 comments you already posted :) It helps!)

G

NikoDoby said:
I think it doesn't help that this forum is so biased towards the D90 :^) I wonder what would happen if I started a "I hate the D90" thread? ;^)

Well, it's not just you guys. I find it really hard to hear anything good about the D5000 when it comes to comparing it to the D90. Makes me wonder how damn important the vari-angle screen is in the end... I think I have to try that in a store again :)

bmxdad said:
D90 + 18-105 + 50mmF1.8 + SB600 app $1600 which I think would be a better value and something you can build on if your photographic interest matures. BTW the 50mm F1.8 is by far a better portrait lens than the 18-200 will ever be, OK

Ho often does it happen that you use a flash, except for the "flash inside a silver umbrella" [yes, no clue how that is called in English :)]. Do you use a SB600-like flash a lot?