sevencrossing said:
A feel an true amateur will find it hard being a professional. an amateur does photography for love and the moment he makes, or tries to make, money, the love is easily lost

As an amateur, I find it very hard to delete photos from a shoot. I have an emotional attachment to most every exposure.

lovely quote from a urban paint artist I shot yesterday

" you are obviously a professional, your camera is held together with gaffer tape"

Pierre said:
My wife is getting aggravated with my recent additions to my tool-set (Nikon 14-24 F2.8 and D800) and she keeps serving me the ‘Are you a professional he! he! noooo, so you don’t need all of this..’

Just to say that no one is a prophet in his own country... LOL

Well said

My wife is getting aggravated with my recent additions to my tool-set (Nikon 14-24 F2.8 and D800) and she keeps serving me the ‘Are you a professional he! he! noooo, so you don’t need all of this..’

Just to say that no one is a prophet in his own country... LOL

This is so interesting.... a bit of psychobable is needed..... a heck of a lot of us are sensitive to what people think of us. We struggle to get others to like us. We do not accept criticism well. We fear rejection or abandonment.
So, we want to be called amateur, professional, enthusiast, guru, whatever, because it gives us an identity. And once we have decided what we are, we tend to defend this.

Jonnyapple may have the real answer... most of us are in some way or another, "all of the above" when the terms are defined by quality rather than the money.

I think we should just turn the tables by saying, "you're just a professional. I'm an amateur!"

I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes because people think these terms are mutually exclusive. Who says you can't be all three?

TaoTeJared said:
...These discussions almost seem more like a discussion of the misunderstanding of the definitions of words used. Hate to split hairs but words do have defined meanings. All from merriam-webster....

I absolutely have no problem with these definitions and I would not have dragged myself into this discussion if the terms were used with these meaning. I think we both understand each other as I am also a professional in another field.

What got me kicked is the way the terms are often used to imply quality or lack of as sevencrossing alreay mentionned.
In the mind of many here and in the public in general, the title appropriately depicts a generally agreed upon and derogatory view as in “the quality was so bad, the guy is obviously an amateur” or “how dare you, I am a pro, you’re just an amateur”.
Some use their pay check as an instant glorifier and their automatic belonging to the connoisseur group. It is this notion that is challenged as connoisseurship is not restricted to who get paid.

Again

sevencrossing said:... Amature Latin source, amātor, "lover, devoted friend, devotee, enthusiastic pursuer of an objective,"s...

Pierre said:
Then perhaps there is no such a thing as a pro photog, it seem that anyone getting a pay check can claim to be a pro without having any credential whatsoever, needing any proof of his skills, need to answer to no-one and is not required to guarantee any level of quality.

That could be part of the problem facing the profession given there is nothing that differentiate them apart from the claims of average Joes.

The problem with saying that, is the work is the proof. People see a photographer's work, and they choose based on previous work. That is the difference from most professions. Get hired as an analyst, developer, draftsman, researcher, teacher, etc. one has almost no way to view the quality of the work. Photographers, pro or amateur, our work is our proof.

I don't see credentials, associations, guilds, or anything outside a college degree more than just a piece a paper someone paid for and it has no basis if they should be in the chosen profession or not. To compare a photographer to someone (doctor, engineer, architect, dentist, etc.) who if they fail, could could kill people, is proposing an extreme comparison that falls short. A pretend photographer may leave a sick feeling in someones gut, but it would hardly kill them. A pretend engineer could kill 1,000s.
-----------

These discussions almost seem more like a discussion of the misunderstanding of the definitions of words used. Hate to split hairs but words do have defined meanings. All from merriam-webster.

AMATEUR:
a: devotee, admirer
b: one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession.

PROFESSIONAL:
a: Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs
b: having a particular profession as a permanent career
c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return

CONNOISSEUR:
a: expert; especially : one who understands the details, technique, or principles of an art and is competent to act as a critical judge
b: one who enjoys with discrimination and appreciation of subtleties

I think it is just like anything else. There can be several definitions to an amateur and every amateur might not fit the description. I know there are amateurs out there that make money in photography. I doubt any make a living doing it. Most of us just do it for fun.

If you compare to say sports. What is the difference between and amateur and a pro? Money. Time. Training. I am an amateur runner. I do it for fun. I never win. I lose money doing it.

TaoTeJared said:
Considering that does not exist for photographers - then no one is a pro in your mind. Guild? I think you have been playing or watching too many medieval games or movies. :)

I keep it simple and go with the Tax code (for U.S.) If you make 50% or more of your income from a job, that is your profession. I expand it a bit encompassing a few years worth if you had in the very recent past- I know some do split time and are right on that 50/50 line. If you don't make a significant amount of your income from photography, than you are a very good amateur.

You'd be surprised- in Paris, France there's a sort of chef's guild where once you pay the one time membership fee there's a sort of social network of chefs where you can find openings for employment. You can also pass time and meet other chefs there too.

TaoTeJared said:
Considering that does not exist for photographers - then no one is a pro in your mind...

Then perhaps there is no such a thing as a pro photog, it seem that anyone getting a pay check can claim to be a pro without having any credential whatsoever, needing any proof of his skills, need to answer to no-one and is not required to guarantee any level of quality.

That could be part of the problem facing the profession given there is nothing that differentiate them apart from the claims of average Joes.

Based on comments here, my country appears to be quite different than yours... Here even our car mechanics needs certifications. You guys get your teeth fixed by amateur dentist? Get surgery from amateurs surgeons? Your skyscrapers are built by architects that are not monitored by government? A university degree means nothing? Here, almost every aspects of a professional life is regulated by an "Order" or some sort (i.e. Guild) as in "The Order of engineers" or the "Order of medicines" that sue the wannabees all the time.

Not that long ago, there was a big discussion here where a pseudo pro wedding photog got sued in court because the customer was disappointed with her pics, so indeed, a pro is accountable and may have to answer in a court of law.

sevencrossing said:
... unfortunately it has ended up as the same old amateur v professional argument...

I totally agree with you, it is becoming a stale and sterile discussion and we should move beyond labels and titles and stop mixing concepts. An amateur also means a connoisseur as in wine amateur.

Pierre said:
.....or what does it takes to achieve photographic sainthood.

something along those line is what I had in mind when I started this thread
unfortunately it has ended up as the same old amateur v professional argument

Scary thought, in order to achieve Beatification I think you have to be dead first

Pierre said:
By definition, a professional is one ...

He may receive privileges and protection from his guild but also has obligations and is officially accountable for his performance and his behaviour sometime even in a court of law. He may see his certification been revoked and he may be radiated from his profession and banned from the practice.

Considering that does not exist for photographers - then no one is a pro in your mind. Guild? I think you have been playing or watching too many medieval games or movies. :)

I keep it simple and go with the Tax code (for U.S.) If you make 50% or more of your income from a job, that is your profession. I expand it a bit encompassing a few years worth if you had in the very recent past- I know some do split time and are right on that 50/50 line. If you don't make a significant amount of your income from photography, than you are a very good amateur.

WOW - there must only be perhaps ten pros in the world by those standards Pierre!

By definition, a professional is one that received formal education, has passed examination, takes oath and is recognized by his peers through certifications that are usually renewed at periodic interval (think dentists, electricians, architects, scientists, engineers, firemen, doctors, lawyers etc.). With all of the training and certification, the professional is expected to be the most knowledgeable and skilful or is guaranteed to have at least obtained the minimal requirements.

He may receive privileges and protection from his guild but also has obligations and is officially accountable for his performance and his behaviour sometime even in a court of law. He may see his certification been revoked and he may be radiated from his profession and banned from the practice.

It is not because one calls himself a professional or that he receives payment that he is one.

The amateur on the other hand has potentially none of that, no certification, obligations to preform or accountability. I am perfectly happy to be shielded under that denomination and therefore to remain free to evolve at any pace and direction that pleases me.

That does not mean using the term in a derogatory way or to dismiss the excellent work of one is acceptable neither.

We can abuse of words until they mean nothing but let’s not call dogs’ cats.

Perhaps a more appropriate discussion would be "What makes someone an advanced amateur" or what does it takes to achieve photographic sainthood.

framer said:
Here's my unofficial hierarchy:
- Ex-professional Becauses he really doesn't care about the BS anymore but still has an enlarger stored in his bathroom.

I have an enlarger stored in my office ... it's leaning up against a bookshelf.

I got trays, tongs, tanks, old cameras all over the floor too.

To use a common analogy like sports consider Olympic runners, gymnasts, swimmers etc.
They are all considered amateurs but are more professional than anyone on the planet at their sport.

Some of the very best photographers are amateurs in the true sense of the word but this does not make their work any different than professionals.

:)

You take pictures like I do...

Here's my unofficial hierarchy:
- Ex-professional Becauses he really doesn't care about the BS anymore but still has an enlarger stored in his bathroom. May or may not even own a camera.
- Professional
- Semi-professional
- Quasi-professional
- Serious amateur
- Amateur
- Jocular amateur
- Photo taker
- Anyone with a cameraphone
- iPhone owners
-
-
-
-
Flower photographer...
(Not joking!)

framer

bjrichus said:

How many tens of thousands of words here have been covered here already on the subject of "Am I an amateur or professional/what makes an amateur or professional?"

Agreed. I am sure many tens of thousands have yet to written

Like Yeti Buddha I am probably misallocating my time from photography to philosophical debate

I am trying, admittedly without success , to get away from, the OR debate

At present, I believe I fit most definitions of "Professional photographer"

The question I am asking my self. Can I go back to being an amateur?

(if MikeWhis is correct my spelling should help)

sevencrossing said:
You seem to consider amateur as a derogatory word

and sady it is often used that way

something I find quite sad

I did not say that a derogatory term.

It would be nice if original posters did a search for topics already covered. How many tens of thousands of words here have been covered here already on the subject of "Am I an amateur or professional/what makes an amateur or professional?"

Seven, good point. However, I think an amateur can go about the practice of photography in a disciplined, hard working way, simply because of the love of the hobby. And, some of those behaviors may look very professional. That does not mean money is involved.

All this said, this isn't the biggest cup of tea we need to work on--Its just I am an academic and like these debates, and being quasi retired, I am misallocating my time from photography to philosophical debates!

Have fun.

Here is the official hierarchy:

- Professional
- Semi-professional
- Quasi-professional
- Ex-professional
- Serious amateur
- Amateur
- Jocular amateur
- Photo taker
- Anyone with a cameraphone
- iPhone owners
-
-
-
-
- Dog photographer
- Paparazzo

(Just joking!)

Pierre said:
...... amateurship is an awakening venture that brings you to the 'Ultimate State of Consciousness'. It is divided in layers of enlightenment with sainthood at the top.

love it