To bjrichus: Keep us informed on your results as you may well see something it would take us weeks or months to discover. We are seeing a evolution in digital cameras that is quite amazing. In my case at 67 years old I do want as good a light camera as I can get as soon as possible. I photograph almost every day and use what is available so I am not dreaming of gear not yet available. When I think back to the weeks (sometimes) of waiting til film got developed, etc. the present DSLR are to me amazing and wonderful. JI photographers who visited our lake country this fall were shooting movies with all kinds of gear and the New Nikon 1 camera. Wow! Did they have a lot of other gear for such a tiny camera! Not the way I would do it....but interesting.

A point I do not miss is that in some places a smaller camera has some advantages and that is why I keep testing them. Although I have made very favorable comments on the Nikon D3100 I would still NOT buy that camera as I am used to having controls on my cameras that I regard as "must have" not nice to have. I do think say the D90 and the D7000 are truly amazing for what we pay for them. We truly are in an era that a beginning DSLR camera owner is getting an unbelievably good deal PROVIDING they get the right one!

DaveyJ said:
I must say that in as close to exact scene photos the P&Ss always pull up very short.

The P&S I have tested cost about as much as some of the DSLRs I shot them against.

The latest comparisons I shot were D3100 versus several $500 P&Ss. The results were once again way in favor of the D3100.

I totally WANT small, light, and packed with power.

I have slightly edited your words to match EXACTLY my own feelings. The very newest APS-C P&S cameras (and also CSC devices like the J1) are pretty damn close to entry level dSLR cameras now, but not better.

Just wait for 2012 models and we might just see them edge out the lowest of the low dSLR's...

I use the 18-200VR lens the most of all Nikkor Lens. So andrewz has a good point there. However that lens is not inexpensive.
Not many people that have gotten in DSLR cameras with my help have gone that route. I use it so much as it does a lot very well.
Adding the 70-300VR which is a lower cost lens gives you so much speed, power, and relative quality that I believe covers almost everything well.

I'll agree with everyone who said 18-200. If I can only take one lens, that's the one I pick up. Yes it has it's limitation but everything does.

@heartyfisher: Nice shot you posted from the p5000! I have seriously tested P&S and owned a few high end ones. One was a Leica P&S. I must say that in as close to exact scene photos the P&Ss always pull up very short. The P&S I have tested cost about as much as some of the DSLRs I shot them against. The latest comparisons I shot were D3100 versus several $500 P&Ss. The results were once again way in favor of the D3100.

I totally WANT small, light, and packed with power. I still do not want to be at a spot that cost hundreds or thousands to get to and have photos compromised because I wanted a very small light but expensive camera. Where I am GOING to reduce my load is clothing and other gear. I primarily travel and move about even my own property with a primary goal of producing the best images I can. I do though feel FX like my D700 is not as important to me as it is to some. I believe that a small camera could record fantastic detail and quality. Therefore I still have a GREAT interest in P&S. It is better to be at the right place and time with a good enough camera. I still remain disappointed with P&Ss compared to say even a D40X. The D40X is NOT what I would buy now for any use. Unfortunately I do not see any P&S that I would trust to an important event or scene.

I have to disagree. It depends on the P&S and/or shooter. And no, we're not talking great as far as printing, but for decent web pictures and facebook (which is what most people want with their vacations), a good P&S can get you decent pictures. I guess it depends on your definition of "good". If you mean book or magazine quality, then sure, I agree with you. But if you dont mean that, you should be getting more than 10 out of 1000 if you are halfway decent. I wont argue the low light comment.

At 800 pixels wide, almost anything will look good (or equally bad), on a big monitor or large print, this is where the P&S or coolpix shots will show their limitations. Prior to shooting with a D700, I had been shooting almost 5 years with a Coolpix 8800 which was much better than the half dozen of P&S I have tried. Event at 800 pixels, it is fairly easy to tell the Coolpix and D700 daylight shots apart, but boy are the differences obvious on my 30 inch monitor or in low-light shots.

Despite being a good shot, I find hartyfisher P5000 shot very coolpix in mood.

That being said, someone that do not care about photos or is not willing to invest any effort is probably going to be more successfull with a decent coolpix-like than with the best DSLR available on the market.

I have many friends that shoot their vacation with P&S and out of thousands of shots, they may have 10 good one by pure luck and none in low-light. To me, trying to get good shots out of a P&S is a total waste of time, talent and money.

heartyfisher said:
I have seen some amazing shots taken with P&S .. In what way were your shots disappointing?

;) why I still back my recommendations I made. Essentially making the D5100 a P&S if need be...or I recommended a dSLR type P&S. I found when I first got my D5000 that the info button in the menus was helpful...I no longer use it, but at first it was nice.

Over half the pictures on my flickr page are with a P&S...I thought my Fuji S5200 did a great job. I just outgrew it and it didn't give me the control I wanted when taking pictures. I will say that if the OP was taking pictures with whatever type of camera and wasn't getting good results that just by buying a Nikon dSLR they won't automatically turn into great pictures. Bad technique with any camera will result in poor pictures. I thought I took good pictures with my P&S and now I think I take even better pictures with my dSLR, but it took some learning.

I have seen some amazing shots taken with P&S .. In what way were your shots disappointing?

I took this with an old Nikon P5000

Some of my net friends photos from P&S

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2007/329/2/5/112407_1_by_Lelleean.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2007/315/c/0/111107_2_by_Lelleean.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs15/i/2007/050/f/6/Marry_Me_by_Darksamu.jpg
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/088/b/c/Up_and_Down_by_taramara.jpg

The D5100 has the same sensor and the same PSAM modes as the D7000. It too should remain relevant for some time.

Yes, a DLSR on Auto will take better photos than a point and shoot in large part because it has a much larger DX sensor even though the Point and Shoot advertises about the same number of megapixels. The even larger FX sensor found in the D3, D3s, D3x, and D700 is superior in low light ability and detail capture. But please don't shoot on Auto. Use P at first and watch what choices the camera makes for shutter speed and f-stop. Then use S or A when you want to control the shutter or the aperture as your baseline. For example, use a high shutter speed to stop motion (such as in sports photography) and use a large f-stop to blur the background (such as in portrait photography).

The D7000 would be a safe camera for you as it will be around for quite a while I think. It also is plenty of camera that will allow you to grow into the hobby and really develope your skills. Get a "super zoom" so you don't have to change lenses until you feel that you want too. You can also develope a fondness for a particular focal length this way as well. D7000+18-200mm VR II and your all set. Price might be a bit steep, but your getting quality, its going to stay relevant for some time and you will be satisified after using it even after the first time.

@ mirtos: Any of Nikon's DSLR's, when put in the "auto" mode, will do a better job than any "point-and-shot" camera. The fun part of using a DSLR is when you start using the "manual," "aperture priority" and "shutter priority" features of DSLR's. I would like to think that this is what you were hinting at when you said: "people on this forum sometimes have a tendency to forget that."

I'll also second the 18-200 VR. Even tho I have a 70-200 VRII, I still use the 18-200 as a carry around lense. It's not as sharp as the Pro lense, but it'll do just fine for posting photos to the web and small prints, which is what Hazi wants it for.

I dont disagree that the 16-85 is better optically, but for the "one lense" approach, I'd have to go with the 18-200. The 18-200 isnt as good as the 16-85, but its not as if its bad. I still use my 18-200 when im just walking around with one lense.

Also, Hazi, while there is a learning curve for the DSLR, I would say that it is to use the camera to its fullest potential. I think people on this forum sometimes have a tendency to forget that. While not quite point and shoot, Nikons are really good cameras, and you will be able pretty much just go out there and "point and shoot". I dont think a DSLR is hard at all to just start using. Put the lense on, put the memory card and battery in, and start shooting! (I know thats how I learned with my first SLR camera, except of course, change "memory card" for "film"). There will be a lot of features that you will want to learn, but this wont prevent you from just going out there and taking pictures day one.

Have fun!

Personally, I would suggest the 16-85 which covers most day to day subjects and is far better, optically, than the 18-200. Then, as you progress through your hobby, you will be able to buy long zoom lenses, depending on what you intend to take pictures of.

Just my 2 cents… :)

I recommended the D5100 and the 18-200 based on your questions. It is a single lens that covers a large range. It doesn't do everything the best, but it does keep you from switching lenses all the time. I still use mine fairly often. It does like any kit type lens have its limitations in low light. A flash can help in some cases, but some times you need a faster lens F1.4, F1.8 or F2.8.

Hazi: you made a good choice BUT you will find that the 18-200 lens which covers such a wide range is not really good for low light photography. When you want to shoot in very low light pick up a 35mm or 50mm lens with a big opening such as the 35mm 1.8 DX or the 50mm 1.8G. Each cost about $200. The 35mm 1.8 DX is probably the best choice since low light usually means inside shots and the 35mm allows you to cover more inside space. You don't really need to spend the extra money the 50mm 1.4 since your camera can be set to automatically increase the ISO to compensate for the difference between f1.8 and f1.4.

Good luck.

hazi said:
FYI - I have been led to believe that 8-200mm VR lens is the best all round lens to go with a D5100.... and that it is also good for shooting (with flash) in low light / darkness.

Hazi, when it come to "low light/darkness" the 18-200 VR II (the VR is in gold vs red which is the older model) is not that good. Shooting in such condition it is best to use a fast prime lens, such as the 35mm 1.8 (if price is not an issue the 1.4 is dream lens to have), 50mm 1.8 or the 1.4G. If on the other hand you are seeking a telephoto/zoom lens, then it better have an aperture of 2.8 in order to obtain nice sharp images.

Things to keep in mind: if and when you shoot in low light/darkness with your 18-200, using a tripod and longer exposure time, will yield a better image for you. It will also help keep your ISO at a lower setting, which will result in less noise in your final shot. Lastly, consider getting a flash for your new camera...either the SB-400 or SB-700. They will really come in handy.

Congrats on the new gear. Have fun...cheers!

FYI - I have been led to believe that 8-200mm VR lens is the best all round lens to go with a D5100.... and that it is also good for shooting (with flash) in low light / darkness.

Hey everyone - thanks so much for your really useful advise. As a result of your responses I am doing the following:

1. I am purchasing the D5100 with 18-200mm VR lens.
2. I will be booking myself into some photography classes here in Dubai where I live.
3. I cannot wait to start my new hobby!

FYI - I did consider the non DSLR option, but if I don't buy one now... I never will!

Thanks Again,

casperwb said:

sometimes the SLR Digital may be a steep learing curve, yes it can be used as a big fancy point and shoot, however it can be intimidating to the newbie, more so if he tries to make changes to the menu.

having someone to help you, a photographer friend to go shooting with, to explain aperture, shutter, and ISO. DOF, trigger finger control, holding technique, composition, lighting, flash, oh we can go on and on.

it is a complicated curve to tackle by yourself.

I could not have said it better myself amigo. Yet, given our new members' spirt, as indicated in the title of the topic, one would hope he/she is willing to take their understanding of photography to the next level.

Between the D90 and its replacement the D7000, the D7000 is far better.

However, you need not start at that semiprofessional camera level and probably you should not start at that level because you won't know what you are doing in setting the camera options.

Go to a camera store and look at the Nikon D3100 and the D5100. Both have a sensor and lens which will be more than sufficiently capable of taking great photos which can be enlarged far beyond your size expectations. The D3100 has a Guide mode and the D5100 has a Scene mode. Ask the salesperson to demonstrate those two modes to you. Buy the camera with the mode you understand best. That is your current level of knowledge and will help you most in improving your photos. Both the D3100 and the D5100 have the same P,A,S, and M modes of operation as the D90 and D7000. Once you have learned the principles taught by the camera's hand holding guide mode you can move up to directly using the P,A,S and M modes. If you learn to do what both the D3100 and the D5100 can do your fiends will be impressed with your photos and your camera's abilities for many years. Both were also designed to do video.

golf007sd said:
casperwb's and TaoTeJard recommendations a both valid and worth consideration. The only problem is that they do not, to the best of my knowledge, fall under the category of being DSLR's...which is what you were asking us to give you feedback on.

very interesting point of view

I think we are just making suggetions based on his other questions

sometimes the SLR Digital may be a steep learing curve, yes it can be used as a big fancy point and shoot, however it can be intimidating to the newbie, more so if he tries to make changes to the menu.

having someone to help you, a photographer friend to go shooting with, to explain aperture, shutter, and ISO. DOF, trigger finger control, holding technique, composition, lighting, flash, oh we can go on and on.

it is a complicated curve to tackle by yourself.

therefore, TTJs recommendatons is the best to date. after classes you will have a better understanding of all the things that goes into making a photograph, allowing you to make the decision as to what "type" of camera would be better suited to your needs.

casperwb's and TaoTeJard recommendations a both valid and worth consideration. The only problem is that they do not, to the best of my knowledge, fall under the category of being DSLR's...which is what you were asking us to give you feedback on.

TaoTeJared said:
I'll be the rational one here - Sony's products are quite good. What were you using specifically? I have had many friends use Sony stuff and I could never say the quality was ever disappointing. Don't take this the wrong way, but do you know how to utilize the settings and all the functions of the camera?

Personally I love Nikon, but I have found if you don't understand any camera fully, the quality is always sub-par.

Maybe you need some classes to help your skills. Cheaper and more productive than just changing a camera without knowing how to use it.

I agree.