I agree with willis. When I first looked through a D700's view finder I swore I was looking at a movie screen!

Laurent - In fairness, its 96% of a much larger viewfinder. I was floored the first time I looked through a D700.
In DX terms, its more like a 144% viewfinder.

Apologies in advance to you film types who have been enjoying large viewfinders for years.

Best to get the D300 since it has a 100% viewfinder for much less expensive than a 96% viewfinder D700...

Laurent

"maybe I have some extraordinary d200 :)"

Perhaps, some of them are really good. After comparing three D90's to 2 D200's I've seen that the same AF system works the same in both cameras. What I will give the D200 is awesome metering!

gentoo - I know that some time ago I wrote that AF speed is pretty much the same, but it was my first impression, now after taking couple hundreds of images, I lean towards the d200 when I need to focus faster, as in my case it works better - maybe I have some extraordinary d200 :)

"I would agree with Gentoo that the D300 is a major upgrade to the D200. One more difference is the motor in the D300 is more powerful than the D200. I have friends that have the 80-400 lens which had a reputation to be slow focusing on the D200, but when they upgraded to the D300 they have reported that the speed of focusing on the 80-400 + D300 combo was significantly improved.. so much so that it has become a viable "Bird in Flight" combo!"

I forgot about that part and I know the D90's motor is a bit faster because I've mounted my AF-D lens on a D200 and the difference in speed is obvious.

"you can't look at the extra features independantly"

Willis this makes little sense. Every time any of us have ever compared any cameras on here we've talked about the features independently. Features are upgraded this way and until merged by the user are independent in the camera. Yes it's the combination of new features that will decide whether a new model is an evolution or a revolution.

"And is some senses a downgrade in terms of button layout and a few other factors)."

That's relative to the user. It's only a downgrade in button layout if the user is the type that cannot adjust to where they are. Those button still do the same things even though they're shared. I've explained this before but as long as you're shooting, the ISO button is always an ISO button. You have to actually be viewing a picture for it to become a minus (zoom out) button which makes sense because you're not going to adjust the ISO of a shot you just took in camera anyway. Likewise, you have your lens for zooming so that zoom feature is useless while shooting.

On the D200 vs. D300, you can't look at the extra features independantly. You basically get a LOT of minor upgrades that, when taken together, equate to better pictures.

D200 vs. D90, all you really get is better picture quality, which makes it a less compelling (but much cheaper) upgrade. And is some senses a downgrade in terms of button layout and a few other factors).

I would agree with Gentoo that the D300 is a major upgrade to the D200. One more difference is the motor in the D300 is more powerful than the D200. I have friends that have the 80-400 lens which had a reputation to be slow focusing on the D200, but when they upgraded to the D300 they have reported that the speed of focusing on the 80-400 + D300 combo was significantly improved.. so much so that it has become a viable "Bird in Flight" combo!

"AF from d200 is faster than AF from d90"

You must have a defective D90. They both have the multi-cam 1000 and I have two friends with D200's and two others with D90's beside myself. The AF is the same between all of our cameras. You said this yourself once:

"AF speed is pretty much the same on both cameras" http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=242#post-2985

Sounds like your D90 slowed down. I'd send it in and have it looked at.

As far as what you said about the D300: "it's not, it's almost the same camera with slightly better sensor on the higher end - barely 2 stops, apart from that they are pretty much the same".

Grossly oversimplified. The ISO performance is much better, I've seen the differences side by side. The AF system is far far better. The Multi-Cam 3500 is the same AF system from the D3 only optimized for the smaller DX sensor (It's the Multi-CAM 3500DX rather than FX). Having the same AF as the the flagship camera alone puts it head and shoulders above the D200. Trust me on this, the multi-cam 3500 is much faster and far more accurate and intuitive than the the multi-cam 1000. Then there are the picture controls which I know you don't really believe in but they are tools that can still greatly improve what you can do. The battery life is almost twice as long. THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CAMERAS!

Willis - [...]If frame rate matters, The d90 is kind of slow.[...] - it's almost the same as on d200, and most of the times fast enough to capture wildlife

gentoo - [...] The D300 is heads and shoulders above the D200 so comparing them seems rather silly.[...] - it's not, it's almost the same camera with slightly better sensor on the higher end - barely 2 stops, apart from that they are pretty much the same
[...]I believe the D80 and D200 use the same sensor. Not sure if they have the same AF system. [...] - as for sensor indeed, as for AF the difference is higher than between d90 and d300, as d80 is really slow, and AF from d200 is faster than AF from d90

Niko - [...]D90 is perfect for those who have "real" jobs and shoot on the side for extra cash or as a favor[...] - couldn't say it better, I love my d90 but dxxx handling is more pro, and You can feel it, but once I'll go pro I wouldn't use it as my main body, a back-up yes but only till I'll earn money to get some better gear
[...]Listen to your wife Jon. Rule number one in a marriage[...] - once again, You couldn't write it better :D

JDeV - as for Your wondering about using different card format, You shouldn't have any problems with that, as the new SD cards are really fast, I have d200 and d90 and use it both with Sandisk Extreme III, and really don't see any speed difference between them - actually can take more pics in a series on d90 as the file size is smaller

She keeps reminding me about rule #1 I think rule #2 is to always remember rule #1

Jon

Listen to your wife Jon. Rule number one in a marriage :^(

Heartyfisher, here's why the begging is needed. Years ago when I closed my studio, I decided to sell everything against my wife's wishes. I did keep my Nikon stuff, although I had a 20mm f2 Nikkor that I don't remember selling, but I can't find now!! Anyhow, I sold my Hassy stuff, my 4x5 and lenses, 8x10. I had a ton of Speedo Blackline boxes, heads, quad heads, booms, Chimeras up to the 6 footers...sold all of it. We have a barn, so my wife said to just store it in case I wanted to get back into photography some day. I assured her my shooting days were over...well, as they say, the rest is history :D

Jon

Wow Jon you really want that D300 don't you :^) The decision is now solely on you my friend. Actually it's your wife's call isn't it? :)

Heartyfisher I like your logic the best sir. I welcome the opinion of another pro :^) Not that anyone else's opinion was wrong that is.

And to Gentoo, I sincerely apologize my friend if you were offended by any of my earlier remarks. Goes to show how passionate we all are about our gear doesn't it?

If you dont mind grey, You can get them D300 for less than 1500.

I just re-visited ebay, and Cameta has a new d300 "Buy it now" at $1349. There is a used one for $1025...that's the lowest I've seen there.

Jon

Nikon's Professional build is truely amazing. It made its name in the war zones around the world. Look at the results from the Antarctic expeditions. Not one Nikon failed. When you get one of those Professional quality Nikons you do get the peace of mind that your gear wont fail at the important times even if you do accidentally bash it around or stick it in environmental conditions that humans should not normally be in.(cold or heat or outer space). However the use that the D90 will be put through by JDev is unlikely to stress it to the point of breaking.(looking at his port) and he does have a couple of back up options. Once the money starts coming in he can go for the bigger cameras.

Still I am agreeing with the "new guy"(hi martin) The D200 is more than capable of being used for his business for now. and when money does come in, then pick the best camera for the job. Probably a D700X(for detail and HDR) and a D700 for low light. A D90 could augment his current system(better high iso than his current gear and best current DR (except for D3X) and when the money starts flowing his son will be very pleased with that hand me down!! ( and best of all no begging required an any time !! )

Another thought. If you currently have all that wonderful MF gear why not keep using them as well?

Earlier this evening, I went on ebay and saw some of the prices for a new d300. I've dealt with Cameta once before and they were great. I'm always leery of used equipment except when I buy it at my local professional camera store. Someone was selling a used d300 for $1249. Cameta had some "Buy it now" d300's for $1600. With the d300s out now, what do you think the d300 will go down to?

Jon

Don't worry Gentoo it's all good. Don't mean to rattle you up. Your still buying the beers though :^)

NikoDoby, you pretty much nailed it. I started this as a d300 vs. a d700, knowing that the d700 would be a long shot. The d300 is what I think is my realistic choice at this point considering the possible upgrades in glass, computers, etc. that the d700 would entail and that's after the $800-$1000 extra for the body itself. The video capabilities of the d300s is tempting, but there's so much more involved in getting back into this commercially, I could have paid for a D3 for what it costs for email blasts, promo pieces, software, website...it never ends. As far as the PC is concerned, I never plug my Speedotron into the camera...I'm afraid I'll get a power surge and blow out the camera. I use one of those cheap $29 remotes in my studio. If I do eventually take my studio lights on location, I'll probably get some PW's which means more money. I even had someone on another forum tell me that it's more important to buy a laptop than a new camera, so I can shoot tethered. Anyhow, I learned quite a bit from the information I got from all of you here. Thanks.

Jon

"Gentoo I'm sorry pal but there is a reason Nikon makes the D300. Shutter life is but one aspect that makes it a pro camera, but not the only one. When you take into account the metal body, weather sealing, faster auto focus, and PC sync terminals then there is no way you are going to convince me a D5000 or D90 will be just as good because they use the "same" sensor."

Um...I don't think that's what I said. Can you go re-read my posts and then address me? Thanks.

Oh and thank you for your suggestion Martin!

Jon consider what Martin said about buying a used D300 if your funding is that limited. It will force you to go out and get clients and make some money for new equipment. Before you know it you'll be able to move up to a D700 or D3. Just an additional thought that maybe you haven't looked into.

Okay Jon this thread is starting to confuse me! ;^) You've obviously have done your homework and you've pretty much settled on a D300 or D300S, right? Good! Don't let this thread start clouding your choice. As a working pro you know you will need a back up camera. In fact your going to need two of everything!

So now that you have given us more of your background I can understand where your coming from. If you know how to handle medium and large format cameras, I think you can manage to decide which camera is for you. You want a D700(or D3) but right now the D300 is your only logical choice because of your budget. You know that.

Gentoo I'm sorry pal but there is a reason Nikon makes the D300. Shutter life is but one aspect that makes it a pro camera, but not the only one. When you take into account the metal body, weather sealing, faster auto focus, and PC sync terminals then there is no way you are going to convince me a D5000 or D90 will be just as good because they use the "same" sensor.

My point is that Pro's use Pro equipment because it does take a beating. If your NOT using your equipment up then you are not a pro. (Hey I should write that in the "what makes a pro" thread :^)

If your serious about making money from your gear Jon than you need the right gear to do the job right. Yes you also need skill(check) and a business plan(?) but that's for another thread! A D90 is perfect for those who have "real" jobs and shoot on the side for extra cash or as a favor, but not for someone whose had a studio and wants to make a living from it again. Not when it means the difference between getting paid for the shot or having to blame your equipment for missing it.

Jon since you do have lighting equipment then your going to need the PC sync on the D300 even if you rarely use the lights. I'm guessing there's a reason why you haven't sold them, right?

Sorry if I come across a little harsh guys, but I make a living from this and I want Jon to get the right info.

Okay! Now free beers for everyone!!!(Gentoo's paying) ;^p

"Right now, I wouldn't go out on a big commercial job without a back-up camera body. I would have to use my son's d80, but it uses different cards, and I would want something closer to my d200."

Image quality wise, the D80 is closer to the D200. It's to the D200 what the D90 is to the D300. I believe the D80 and D200 use the same sensor. Not sure if they have the same AF system. They're very similar otherwise.

Martin, I have a SB600, a SB800, and an old SB24. I still have my Speedotron Blackline, and a couple of pieces of Alien Bee's with their Vagabond battery pack...it's just that I really like to shoot available light better. My reason for a second body is so my d200 would be a back-up, not so I can take better pictures(although if any of these cameras help me make better pictures, I'm all for it). Right now, I wouldn't go out on a big commercial job without a back-up camera body. I would have to use my son's d80, but it uses different cards, and I would want something closer to my d200.

Jon

ps...the weird thing is, I'm totally comfortable with big studio lights, and even more comfortable with available light, but I just can't wrap my head around Nikon's CLS. For the most part, when I use more than one stobe unit it looks crappy. I have Joe McNally's "Hot Shoe Diaries" and I have Dave Black's website bookmarked, but my strobe lighting on location just never seems to look as good.