When you say centrally clustered metering do you mean centrally clustered focus points? Centre-weighted metering is something entirely different.

If you mean centrally clustered focus points, the D5100 - in common with all the other Nikon cams that use that 11-point system - has 11 focusing points. The centre one is a cross-type. All the reviews and the documentation make this very clear and they are very clear in the VF (one of the D5100's many plus points IMO). Having them all in the middle would not achieve much. The D7000 has many more - 39 iirc - which obviously gives more flexibility but it costs a lot more - you get what you pay for. But 11 is fine and pretty standard at this price point.

My D5100 nearly always chooses the correct focus point. Having said that I also dislike the cam choosing for me so I also shoot mostly in single point mode (using a half-press of shutter to recompose, I have that and the AE lock in their default settings).

I try to use the middle point as it is a cross-type and thus should get it right more often (again the 7000 has more x-points). Suggest you try this for your situation.

Incidentally one of the D5100's minus points is that it's really easy to knock the focus point on to one of the others as the heel of the hand brushes on the 4-way - easily tapped back again but slightly annoying.

Your shot of the eyes looked like it had quite a bit of motion blur? If you are handheld do you use VR? If you are on a tripod do you turn VR off?

I agree with the suggestions to shoot a test chart. Then you know what you are dealing with and can get the cam and or lens examined if the tests prove something is wrong.

HTH, good luck

>>>...follow TTJ's advice and you will be happy...<<

I think so, I'm getting a KatzEye screen for the D5100 when they make one available. I don't see one listed yet, but I'll waste no time getting one when they do.

Interestingly enough, watching this video of a D7000 with a KayEye shows that this model (and probaly those above it) have exactly the kind of centrally clustered metering that the D5100 so desperately needs. You can see it right at 20 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_vwZxfLe7Y

This is exactly what the D5100 needs. If I had that option I would not have focusing issues. The D5100 would then focus just like my Fuji S9000, right in the middle where I want it and need it. It's unfortunate Nikon has omitted that feature on it's lower end DSLR models. Even the lowliest Nikkormat and Nikon FM film cameras had accurate focusing screens.

The KayzEye system appears as though it will solve the problem for me by allowing me to bypass the D5100's inferior autofocusing system entirely.

TaoTeJared said:
Change to A/S/P mode and switch the multi-point to single point with continuous or single point focus. The manual or a book on the camera maybe your next stop. It sounds like you are fighting the camera rather than working with it. "If you fight technology, you will always loose." Once you learn about the different AF systems, I'm sure you will become more happier.

Vid

this is the answer to your problems, follow TTJ's advice and you will be happy, when you have mastered single point, then switch to multipoint.

Just search for "focus chart download" , then download and print the chart . Follow the instructions and do your own focus test ( it is not a resolution chart )

This is the only proper way to determine BACK / FRONT FOCUS issues.

Regarding the D5100 focusing/not focusing/wrong focusing in real life conditions , that's another story . But get the basic test done first . If you see there is a problem in focusing of the charts correctly , then you will have pinpointed the problem .

>>Why don't you just do a proper focus chart test and cut the Gordion's knot for good ?<<

I'm not familiar with what you're referring to, but what bothers me about this system is the way it picks an area to focus on. Every time I depressed the shutter button, a different set of lights would go on. On the same subject. Some were the same lights, some weren't.

I'm not sure what shooting some resolution chart would do for you, because it's real-world conditions that dictate where these things will decide to go next. The camera may very well be perfectly programed to focus perfectly on the test chart every time. That's not going to do anything for me in the real world.

All this said, I'm sure I can figure out my own system to get this to work for me, at least more of the time. As I mentioned earlier, I went from ~15% target to ~85% target by futzing around with throwing things out of focus and refocusing. As annoying as I find all this, I'm overall still pretty happy with the D5100. The IQ is just great, and it has some backward compatibility that I like. Focusing has been a bitch, for me anyway, with this camera, but it's not like everything I shoot with this has been a disaster.

Vidrazor,

Why don't you just do a proper focus chart test and cut the Gordion's knot for good ? OK , I see some issues in your uploaded images but not sure if you eliminated all the other factors ( vibration , quality at borders being worse than center , quality at wide apertures etc ). Maybe you did , but it really is hard for us to check each photo for everything . One image has so much noise , it is hard to see anything else .

We can argue about each of your images for pages but if you upload focus chart tests , there will be nothing to argue .

>>Change to A/S/P mode and switch the multi-point to single point with continuous or single point focus.<<

For the early tests I was on manual mode. For the shoot itself I was on shutter priority to maintain sync with a radio-triggered flash. Focus mode was always AF-S to lock exposure so I could re-compose the shot. I find the AF-L/AE-L button much too clumsy to use.

Single-point failed almost every time. I used multi-point most of the time in the actual shoot. Here are some sample overviews of tests the day before and of the shoot day showing focus point: http://tinyurl.com/3gpsup2

On 0877 I focused on the near eye with the single point and recomposed the shot. Here is a 100% crop of the eyes as the D5100 chose to see it: http://tinyurl.com/3rn4ydq
That's the 18-55mm, 55mm @ f5.6.

Shot 0882 is another 18-55mm, 36mm @ f5, focused on the left eye and recomposed. Here is a 100% crop: http://tinyurl.com/4ytu4tx

The same situation with the 55-200mm, 75mm @ f4.2: http://tinyurl.com/3lugdzs
Click on the image to view at 100%.

>>"If you fight technology, you will always loose."<<

I couldn't agree more, however I'm not the one picking the fight. Images 0946, 0951, and 0963 are all examples of the throw of the dice that is the D5100 AF system. In these examples the dice fell in a bad place. Needless to say, these were all focused on the wrong place. I do not chose what the suckers decide to pick, the camera does. I had to constantly knock the lens out of focus and refocus and hope it picked the correct spot, as it did in example 0979.

>>The manual or a book on the camera maybe your next stop.<<
>>You really need to read the user manual and learn how your camera works. <<

Contrary to popular belief, I did RTFM. I saw no revelatory information in there that would point out how I make the camera focus where *I* want it to focus. It decides every time. No match for the D5100's IQ, but here's the Fuji S9000 on the first shot: http://tinyurl.com/3nf8a42
Click on the image to see at 100%

>>you are using 18-55 & 55-200. these are 3.5-5.6 and 4-5.6 and as such do not have shallow DOF<<

They certainly can, perhaps not what you get from a larger aperture optic, but if you look any of the examples I've posted here you can clearly see the need for critical focus, where YOU want it. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Here's another (downsampled) example of a shot that fortunately went well: http://tinyurl.com/3wzf6sr
Click on the image to see full res. That's the 55-200mm, 175mm @ f5.3. So yes, you can can fairly shallow DOF with these optics.

I think that generally speaking you'll get "good enough" focus from this system. After all, most people wouldn't care if the left eye or right was in focus. If you print out any of the images I pointed out above there were focused in the "wrong" place, they wouldn't appear out of focus, but it's not focused where *I* want it, in these examples it is the eyes, or a specific eye.

I still think a central cluster of focus points would make for better focusing then this splattered grid. Time and again it decides to pick someplace other than where I want it, other times it hits dead on. It's been a complete throw of the dice for me.

vidrazor,

you are using 18-55 & 55-200. these are 3.5-5.6 and 4-5.6 and as such do not have shallow DOF

Therefore, my question to you is: is your question really about the little focusing squares that show you the focus point?

for example, you focus on the eye of the model and then the camera shows you that it is focusing on the model's breast when you recompose.

is this your problem?

I probably should have been more detailed but PB PM filled it in. I have found the 1/3 rule seems to work with zooms but primes seem to vary which is sometimes due to design and intended purpose and use of the lens. Example, if it will almost always be shoot wide open. I have found the front focus DOF to be less than 1/3 in most instances.

ribid, that is true, to some degree. The value of focus depth is effected by a number of factors though, focal length, distance to the subject and the aperture value selected. At 18mm, F4 on a subject 10m away depth of field could be 5m in either direction from the subject (not actual just an example). Change the focal length to 300mm at F4 and the depth of field could be 10cm in each direction from the focus point.

TaoTeJared said:
What helps me with new cameras, I keep a small notepad and make one page for each AF setting (also for everything else) and shoot different objects to find what setting works for what and what doesn't. It's tedious and a pain, but that is how I force myself to learn the system.

Good Idea, I guess I will start moving also with a small notepad while taking photos.

TaoTeJared said:
What you are seeing with the multi-point is that it is finding the closest focus point so the DOF starts there.

I thought that the DOF starts before the closest focus point, like in the marks of old manual lenses that depending on the aperture used, you have a DOF range that starts ~1/3 before the focus point and end ~2/3 after the focus point.

vidrazor said:
Well, I still had off-focus with multi-point...

Very annoying focusing system overall, I must say. I find it very annoying to have a camera decide where to focus instead of the user.

Too bad you can't stick a standard manual focusing screen in the D5100, my focusing accuracy would improve by 1000%! :-D

Change to A/S/P mode and switch the multi-point to single point with continuous or single point focus. The manual or a book on the camera maybe your next stop. It sounds like you are fighting the camera rather than working with it. "If you fight technology, you will always loose." Once you learn about the different AF systems, I'm sure you will become more happier.

Once you learn the AF system, you can get MF screens for your Nikon. I have heard some good things about KatzEye™ Optics but have not used them. If you go that route, I have heard spend the money for the "Upgraded" brighter version.

Sounds like you are using auto area, which always chooses the closest subject. No wonder you are having trouble. You really need to read the user manual and learn how your camera works.

Well, I still had off-focus with multi-point, but if I knocked it out of focus first (by focusing on my knee) then re-focusing on the model I could get a useful image. The main trick apparently is to get the right focus points lit on your subject, which was typically a roll of the dice for me in yesterday's shoot. I had to stop after EVERY shot to make sure it was focused properly. At least I got the hit rate up around 85%, a definite improvement. It was at around 15% the day before.

Very annoying focusing system overall, I must say. I find it very annoying to have a camera decide where to focus instead of the user. If it had a central cluster of focus points instead of a scattered spread, or at least a central cluster with a spread as an option, I think I would have a much better time at it. My Fuji focuses centrally, and although it has an occasional hiccup, the one thing it does right is focus where *I* want it to focus. Unfortunately the Fuji doesn't have the D5100's IQ.

Too bad you can't stick a standard manual focusing screen in the D5100, my focusing accuracy would improve by 1000%! :-D

Rangefinder- I'll have to play with a 5100 at the local shop to see that. I have a little dot that tells me I'm in focus - maybe the same thing and I never cared to learn the name of it.

I forget that the AF system takes some time to learn moving from film. Really, you have to play with it on all the settings. What helps me with new cameras, I keep a small notepad and make one page for each AF setting (also for everything else) and shoot different objects to find what setting works for what and what doesn't. It's tedious and a pain, but that is how I force myself to learn the system. If you pull your exposure from something other than your main subject, (sky, dress, background) this can throw your focus off. I set my "Lock" to AE (exposure) rather than focus, that seemed to help me when I do that.

What you are seeing with the multi-point is that it is finding the closest focus point so the DOF starts there. For moving objects this is great but if you are doing shallow DOF it is a pain. For me, 99% of the time, I'm on single point AF with continuous focusing, for shooing people.

If you are having issues with the 55-200vr getting focused correctly, I would take the camera in and get it checked or get a new one. You really shouldn't have this much of a problem. Set your camera to 'portrait' mode with your 55-200 and then let it set everything for you. If the focus is off, this is the best way to remove any user error.

vidrazor said:
What I don't understand is when I'm using single-point and I aim it squarely at the closest eye, why the model's breast are in focus instead.

As I said, if a lens/camera combo are not properly aligned it can lead to focusing errors. These errors usually show themselves in terms of front or back focusing. In this case it sounds like the camera is back focusing. To get this corrected you might need to take your camera into Nikon to have the focusing realigned. This is one glaring area where Nikon's quality control has really dropped off in recent years. I hear more and more cases of focusing errors like this.

As for multi-point focusing, what focus mode are you using? 3D? Dynamic? What drive mode?

Well, I certainly wouldn't rule out user error. What I don't understand is when I'm using single-point and I aim it squarely at the closest eye, why the model's breast are in focus instead. Multi-point has been hit or miss for me. If there are other items around a subject area, it will want to focus on one of them instead. A different one every time as well.

For instance when I was shooting a long shot down an avenue at 200mm, the camera kept focusing on various streetlights or cars down the different blocks in the frame. It never went to infinity.

I went to take a shot of my camera setup in a previous post on my observations about the D5100, at around 40mm, and the multi-point focus kept focusing on objects behind the camera and tripod.

So in all honesty I don't understand how this comes out being a practical focus system.

Although out of topic, what is missing from my camera is DOF focusing. (I saw this feature on entry-point C*n cameras long ago, that is, using to single clicks on the shutter, you can set the far and close ends of the focusing area).

Agree with PB PM, from one side, it is hard to get intro trouble with the multiple focus points.. but from other side, it is hard to get used to the numerous focusing points when you upgrade your gear from an old beloved D70s towards a new toy like the D7000 :)

Only entry level cameras (D60, D3000, D5000, D3100, D5100) have the rangefinder, that's likely why TaoTeJared doesn't know what it is. The rangefinder uses the same system that the normal viewfinder (phase change) auto focus system does. If the normal AF is not calibrated correctly, then the rangefinder will be off as well.

Two possibilities, user error or as noted before a case of the auto focus either in the lens or the camera (or both), being miss aligned. If they aren't aligned they don't speak properly and don't focus correctly. Do you have trouble focusing on other subjects or just people? If it's just people I can only suspect user error. I've never had trouble with the 11 point AF system that Nikon uses in the D5100 (same as that found in the D200, D80, D90, D3100 etc).

Yes it is my first DSLR, and I can attribute some things to user error. But this autofocus thing I don't get. The problem I've had with multi-point is that it gets distracted by nearby objects and shifts to them instead. In these particular tests I used single-point and focused on the near eye and waited for the AF lock, but the result is usually a focus somewhere on the model's breasts. I'm shooting wide open mostly for shallow DOF so I need that focus lock to be correct.

Rangefinder focus is a digital focusing aid to use with MF optics. I would be surprised if your D300 doesn't have it. I suspect however that it's the same system used for live view focusing, which is more inaccurate, so I'm going to shut it off and perhaps stick with the kit optics on the D5100.

My previous digital camera, while occasionally getting a focus error, never gave me problems like this. If I focused on the eye(s), that's what I got. That camera is a hybrid Fuji S9000: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms9000/

I will bring one film camera for backup tomorrow, and more closely check the D5100 frames onscreen. Next to maximum zoom on the screen appears to be 1:1 viewing, so I'll know if I have to try something different.

Recomposing, depending on the distance can throw you off. You may try switching to the AE lock rather than the AF lock. Continuous, multi-point is damn near spot on 99.9999% of the time and I have never seen inaccurate focus on portraits. I'm not sure what the "Rangefinder focus" is, I do not have any setting like that on my D300.

Is this your first Nikon DSLR? I know you have had some all-in-one and film cameras but just wondering how large of a learning curve you have. I would think it would be small which means its the camera. This is like the 2nd or 3rd post on AF/Focus issues that you have had with your camera. You are having way too many issues - I think it is time to send it in to get checked or send it back for a replacement.

Has anyone had autofocus issues with the D5100 and the 18-55 & 55-200 kit optics? I don't think it's the optics themselves, but the AF system. I was doing some portrait tests for an upcoming shoot tomorrow, and I consistently got an area in front of the principle point of focus in focus.

I have the camera set to single-point AF to minimize multi-point focusing inaccuracies that I get. Focus mode is AF-S to lock focus while I recompose the shot. I would set the focus point to the closest eye on the model to me. I also have rangefinder focus on for using manual optics. Would the rangefinder setting have any effect on AF optics? Oddly enough using rangefinder focusing on manual optics gave me focus just behind the principle point of focus, the opposite of the AF optics.

Curious if anyone's had similar focusing issues. Thanks.