Hi all,

During the war in Vietnam I work as a combat photographer for the US Army.While I wouldn't trade the experience for anything, I couldn't in good conscious advise anyone to go though a combat photography unit as I did.

When I taught, businesses activity sought students as robo-slaves with their professors as implicit accomplices in the unfair labor practice. I took such an internship program over that was riddled with violations of state law in my last teaching job. Fortunately, the coordinator and I were able to put in place a program that enforced learning goals, rather than 'get me a dough nut goals'.

Which, in the far-fetched case of an internship in a war zone. There would be no insurance for the intern, no meal program, no ombudsman to ensure any rights (for there would be no rights to seek), and only a $hitee creek and nary a paddle in sight.

Interns are students. They deserve mentors who can guide them in their journey in their professional growth, either by nurturing their technical competence or professional standards of conduct.

Telling them where to carry a goddamn bag doesn't cut it.

For more on this see:

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=3525

My best,

Mike

to a warzone no and certainly not for free

I'd be more than happy to go to a warzone, but I'd want to be sent and paid for by Reuters or AP.

Like Mike Gunter I have been drafted. Actually Vietnam is a beautiful place. Wars though do not improve places at all. Granted though that sometimes they are necessary. At least this gig is optional. I personally would NOT take this opportunity. Volunteering for internship is one thing. Volunteering to go to a war zone is quite a step up in the risk department.

I"ll do it. My cell phone number is (810) 282-5135 call me and tell me when we are leaving and about how long we will be gone.

NikoDoby said:
A few years ago James Nachtway even offered an unpaid internship at his studio in New York. There was a huge uproar about that too. Many felt that Nachtway was taking advantage of young and dumb students.

I agree with some of you above. No-pay internships used to be the way most trades were learned. I find that too many (especially young) people feel some sort of entitlement to being paid, even if they are being taught something. Crikey, even the young secretaries we hire at the office get mad when they don't get a raise, even though they've expressed to others in the office (including telling my daughter) that they aren't going to do *&%^ unless they're told it's ablsouteley necessary and has to be done now.
This particular offer to go to a war zone doesn't appear to be a learning experience (learning photography that is) as much as just a non-paid job as a gopher.

True, most "real" unpaid internships do offer credits at least.

Mike Gunter said:
Why on earth would the guy 'advertise'? There are plenty of young folks who come by to volunteer for the chance to help (assuming they could learn something) - even I get those misguided souls - a dozen or so a year.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say he advertised because no one locally would take his offer. Even the misguided souls.

He actually did end up "hiring" someone. He was another combat photographer who had been to Afghanistan before. For some people the thrill of death and adventure is more valuable I suppose.

The thing is, isn't this just the photographer's version of an internship? Most internships aren't paid and you're at your employer's bidding to do everything they tell you to. Oftentimes internships are done through the college- you pay for the credits so you can actually have the "honor" of interning at the company. My cousin did that for Versace.

Hi again,

The big misunderstanding I seem to be getting from those who would go is that they think they would get 'something' out of it besides the 'honor' of carrying $hit and the sore muscles one would get from it.

Why on earth would the guy 'advertise'? There are plenty of young folks who come by to volunteer for the chance to help (assuming they could learn something) - even I get those misguided souls - a dozen or so a year.

This is a loser's bet. All you'd have to show for it is how foolish you've been.

My best,

Mike

A few years ago James Nachtway even offered an unpaid internship at his studio in New York. There was a huge uproar about that too. Many felt that Nachtway was taking advantage of young and dumb students.

Would I go to a warzone? Yes. Once, for the experience.

For free? No way. Not unless it was ALL expenses paid. And I had permission to sell shots myself.

Like Mike G,over 40 years ago, I was given a request by my government that I couldn't refuse....an all expense paid one year tour of beautiful South East Asia.

I went,I saw,I puked,I left, but at least that's where I first discovered my love of photography.

These days,unless I'm dragged kicking and screaming,I won't enter a combat zone,with or without pay,with a camera OR a rifle....NADA....no way!......bugs and flowers don't shoot back ;>)

What is the biggest font I can use to say .... NO

Work for free in a WAR ZONE ! .. no freaking way baby ... no freaking way

For me, having become old(er), somewhat busted up (back, knee), and having invested in a career other than photography, and now having a family, I would not take the same risks I took when I was younger and much more agile.

On the flip side, if it weren't to a war zone, I might be willing to be a gopher for Joe McNally or someone of his caliber, without being paid. That would be a vacation for me.

warprints said:
Why do so many of us say we'd go, or at least consider it, if we were still much younger? Willing to take riskes before we've invested decades in life experiences? Acknowledgement that we're kind stupid when we're younger? Interesting.

Not so fast! I'm pretty young and I decided against it. I haven't even finished undergrad yet.

Part of the reason why is because I've decided against being a photographer anyway, so the experience probably won't help me in the long run. The other thing is the unpaid thing. If I need to supply my own gear, etc. then no way will I do it even if it could be Joe McNally I'm following here. Even Chase Jarvis hires his own interns.

elvishefer said:
For me it's a combination of career and the fact that I'm getting old and fat.

I've decided on a career, and it's certainly not photography. I'm not old yet, but I can be considered slightly fat. :D

warprints said:
Why do so many of us say we'd go, or at least consider it, if we were still much younger? Willing to take riskes before we've invested decades in life experiences? Acknowledgement that we're kind stupid when we're younger? Interesting.

Isn't that normal? I would have thought that most of us would say we have got wiser with age (experience)?
Also my bones creak a lot more now! :-)

For me it's a combination of career and the fact that I'm getting old and fat.

Why do so many of us say we'd go, or at least consider it, if we were still much younger? Willing to take riskes before we've invested decades in life experiences? Acknowledgement that we're kind stupid when we're younger? Interesting.

Mike Gunter said:
I did it. Of course, it was during Vietnam, the internship was called 'the draft'

:D

I don't think going anywhere to be someone's gopher for free is an ideal learning situation, unless you want to learn to be a hungry gopher.

If you are being paid to be a gopher, then it's totally worth it, as you could spin what you learn into essential skills when you go to the same place to shoot. And you'd have money for food, too. ;)

Would I do it? Not for free. Paid? The timing is wrong but if I was still in my twenties, definitely.

This topic stuck in my head this weekend and a resounding thing continually bounced in my head - Unpaid. IMO I would not work for anyone for any real length of time for free. I have found those who want people for free rarely have a second though for others safety, needs, or concerns.

Help a friend, follow someone for a weekend to learn a new technique, maybe a week to learn video (Which i have yet to touch) or a specialized shooting situation I would do that. Go halfway around the world to a place that has a real potential of going wrong very fast - I don't think so. In the back of my mind would always be "If he wouldn't pay for me, how much did he pay that guide to keep us safe?"

I would :) the first three please : )

okay okay, however, what about if they said at the end of the time you would get to keep three of the lenses that you used, as a bonus for going

your choice of :

Nikon 300mm 2.8 VR

Nikon 400mm 2.8 VR

Nikon 600mm VR

Nikon 14 -24 af-s

Nikon 70-200 VRII

would you go?

adamz said:
If I wouldn't be married than YES. Right now, rather no.

I would have though that being married you would say yes.

NikoDoby said:
Would you risk your life to take photos for free in a war zone?

Never. It is simply stupid to work for free, especially if you are going to be in any hazard zone. No money, no work. This slave labor thing has to stop. And working in a war zone has to be at least three-four times the usual rate.

I think you guys missed that this assignment was for "commercial" purposes. From what I understood, the intern wouldn't be taking photos for a news organization etc. He would be assisting the photographer as he shot images to be sold for profit. The unpaid intern would be keeping track of gear and meeting with fixers to locate photo ops and taking care of logistics. They would also be responsible for keeping track and backing up all of the photographers images and maintaining his files.

The photographer offered to give "pointers and critique" any images the intern took on his own time while they were in Afghanistan for about two months. I've seen this "trend" on the wedding circuit too. The "pros" offer you "experience" but what they actually want is just free labor.

Studio I know a guy who worked in Iraq as a "contractor" and He too told me he made a little over $100,000 for about three months of work. One day he was driving in a vehicle when they felt a big sudden bump in the road. It turned out to be an IED. They thought they were about to be ambushed so they hurried to turn the truck around and they ended up running over it again as they sped off!