Have you ever played in a Pro/Am golf tournament? You become a pro golfer by declaring yourself one. You play with Tiger on Sunday's only after you qualify to do so.

In the meantime you and I can play in Pro/Am tournaments all year you the amateur one week and I'm the pro. Next week you can be the pro.

You are a pro photographer when you declare yourself one. Same as golf.

most of us are probably no better at photography then we are at golf. But, we do sometimes get some great shots. (sometimes)

The real question is what make someone an amateur

Amature Latin source, amātor, "lover, devoted friend, devotee, enthusiastic pursuer of an objective,"s

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=5979

I had some buddies who opened camera stores and photo studios because they love photography. I learned quick. Talent is not the difference. The difference is that the amateur can buy a lens or toy because they want to, the professional buys the lens or toy because he has to. Kinda takes the fun out of it!

@mirtos - well put +1

It really is too bad that amatuer has a stigma from the "average joe". Its a basic misunderstanding of what amatuer is. Until recently to compete in the olympics, you had to be an amatuer. And if you have an olympic gold in a sport, nobody disparages you from that. But with a profession, amatuer conveys less skill, and the reality is, one often has nothing to do with other. It might, or it might not.I have a friend who takes shots in his spare time. They are amazing. Beautiful, and quite good. But his full time career is a computer engineer. He sells enough shots to pay for his cameras and his trips to take the shots, but at best he could be qualified as a "semi-pro", by the income method. He writes lightroom plugins, and is always improving his skills. (He shoots with Canon... but nobody's perfect *grin*) He only sells enough to pay for his extreme enthusiasm with his hobby. (hes taken a few shots that have been in ridiculous dangerous places... shots that many people in here would never risk their lives for).

Meanwhile, in my home town there is a photography studio, that does high school shots, weddings, and baby pictures. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to earn a living. I've seen their work. Its ... decent. Its not bad, but its not great. But, they have a good client base, and they make a good living. But my friend knows more about cameras, and is spending more time improving his skills than they do.

I don't mean to disparage them at all. But in the average persons eye, my friend who "pays for his hobby" is obviously less serious than the person who owns a business.

So its really too bad that Amatuer carries the stigma. (Cassius Clay was an "amatuer" before he competed in his first heavyeight bout)

My thanks and appreciation for the comments qualifying MY POST. They were VALID, especially with regard to amateurs. I have a high regard for amateurs, and apologize for inferring otherwise. It diminished my point which you eloquently corrected for me. Thank you!

""A critique forum would be cool though.""

I think it would. A NR Forum administrator can be the originator of a critique forum, however, as it may have some controversy. And they know I have walked near the gates of Hell on some of my posts and do not want to do anything that will get me excluded. I am having too much fun.

And as far as artistic work, I agree that often the artist never gets paid nor even recognized during their lifetime. But the pleasure of producing that which has esthetic value is "priceless".

I've been in the art photography world and there is no such thing as a "pro there" as everybody is either broke, holding a commercial creative job (like Me), married to somebody who works, or sold out,(ok a few get lucky but it is rare). Art photographers love praise and critique. The worst thing you can hear from a prolific critic is nothing... A bad review is better than a neutral or flat one because it doesn't compel people to come see why it was so bad and it doesn't help the artist grow or improve...

A critique forum would be cool though.

I think this forum is full of "My kind of people". As the bears and Dawg would say, "ha, ha, ha."

Back to the real topic.... a "pro" will be always looking for ways to improve what they produce. And this includes being able to accept comments on a photo. Maybe we should have a special topic called "Photo for critical examination". And this photo would be put up under an anonymous avatar so we would not know whose it was. Then anyone could pull it off, make the changes they wanted, and repost as their own idea of how to improve it. This would not be for the faint of heart as I am certain some of us might go after some wild changes.
For example, my photos tend to be "flat" in that the dynamic range is either within a reproducible number via print, or the highlights/shadows are simply gone with the visible range still reproducible. Yet, some may wish to change that. In any case, a "pro" will be able to look at others opinions..... kinda like art directors who just want it their way!
Gosh, maybe some of us have too much free time, huh?

kyoshinikon said:
You shoot with this right? http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/38172/2939225680056087808S425x425Q85.jpg

......but there's no CB antenna! lol

You shoot with this right? http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/38172/2939225680056087808S425x425Q85.jpg

msmoto said:
How about we ask the question "What is a Redneck Photographer?"

me.....LOL

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2068038354385.111866.1647615973&type=3&l=ff0649c595

"...how about that! I never looked. Msmoto, you should be shooting with at least a D3S with a D3X as a specialty backup!!! Just kidding. : )"
Mmmm... OK, I will admit that I do have a D4 on backorder from B & H. My run back into photography is a result of retiring in about 2002, traveling about first in cars, then motorcycles, then Airstreams, and now a motorhome. I support the writing my three stuffed animals do by taking photos for them, and supplying one photo five days a week. All this can justify a heck of a lot of expenditure, but I am not getting any younger and need to get it while I can still carry a heavy body-lens combo. And I love the NR Forum where we can just have a lot of fun and see some absolutely fantastic photos.... many of "top shelf" caliber.
So, let's all keep up the good work. I see almost everyone on the forum as a "pro".

msmoto said:
If one checks my profile it is revealed I used to be a Pro in the field of medicine. Yeah, 12 years of school and all that stuff.

...how about that! I never looked. Msmoto, you should be shooting with at least a D3S with a D3X as a specialty backup!!! Just kidding. : )
By day I'm a Clinical Pharmacist in the Trauma and Critical Care units of a trauma hospital here in South Florida. Doctorate and all - remember brachial plexus? : ). I kid with the MD's all the time about their expensive habbits and toys yet we all respect one another because we know each others' places in the community.

On this board, I respect all of the knowledgeable and wise posters. The people who can go deep into detail about the history of Nikons's cameras and lenses and say more than I will ever know - and do it without making you feel like crap. In my eyes those types are experts or pros as it were - even if they're not shooting photos all day every day. Your line aboout a "Pro" doing a job while respecting others is key.

Rx4Photo....get it? Rx. LOL

This is so cool to be an anonymous voice on a forum.... as we all are. If one checks my profile it is revealed I used to be a Pro in the field of medicine. Yeah, 12 years of school and all that stuff. But, the point is a lot of people do this and make very poor "pro" doctors. I know a lot of them I would not send my worst enemy to see. And every field is the same way. Society is full of words which have so many varied meanings that the word is almost useless. I think maybe this is where we are with trying to get anything more out of "professional photographer" than the fact someone might earn their living taking pictures. No real quality tag goes with this anymore than with some of the docs I have worked with.
How about we ask the question "What is a Redneck Photographer?" See, I think this is someone who works for National Geographic and is outside a lot so gets a sun burn on their neck and becomes a "Redneck".
Or maybe it comes down to our individual behaviors and at least when we are out taking photos we try our best to be respectful of others boundaries while doing our job in a meaningful way. Particularly in photo journalism, a lot of which I seem to do, this is a difficult line to walk. But, a real high quality "Pro" will always be doing the job while respecting others.
And if I irritated an NG photogs, my apologies. You have my undying respect.
Ms. Tommie Lauer

kyoshinikon said:
The question boils down to, What is the stigma others (potential clients) in particular have for you? If you say you are a pro and act like one too, you are a pro (in their eyes)

The term Amateur does have a stigma to the average Joe, money or not.

agree with this. if you say you are a pro, act like one, and others view you as one, then you are one, whether you are literally or not.

The question boils down to, What is the stigma others (potential clients) in particular have for you? If you say you are a pro and act like one too, you are a pro (in their eyes)

The term Amateur does have a stigma to the average Joe, money or not.

msmoto said:
Oh, my, I can see why this topic causes some to cringe.

Way to go msmoto - bring the nasty topic back up. ;)

While TriShooter brings up many good examples of what ACTING PROFESSIONAL is, it falls short of what a professional photographer is. It appears he was trying to illustrate differences or levels of paid "pros" but in doing so, he makes a poor assumption and borders on insulting by grouping labels that many identify themselves as amateurs or hobbyists, into a sub-par category that is lacking any sort of professionalism or knowledge of photography. There are many amateurs and hobbyist that far exceed paid Pros in all aspects that was described but I believe many self identified amateurs or hobbyists, would not call themselves pros.

I have noticed, at least in the US, with the downturn of the economy, many former art journalism students & other backgrounds, are emerging as "pros". Although their images are great, their business skills are still developing or will/have pushed them out of the market due to their miss-management or lack of experience. Even if this was the case, I would still consider them as a working pro at one time. At the same time, I have seen Pros have keen business since, planing, etc. but who's images are just "Bla."

I have always thought that if the majority of your income comes from anything, you can call yourself a pro.

I believe the issue is really the belief or stigma that "pro" = good. I have never seen or understood the label "Pro" is not synonymous with good. To me, Pro just means they make a professional living at it. Just as there are good and bad plumbers, there are good and bad Pro photographers. Just because some one is bad, it doesn't mean they do not make a profession out of it.

Love em all except for these 2 TriShooter...

"A professional produces more and better quality than expected while an amateur produces just enough to get by."

True if you are referring to the typical amateur but many ameteurs dedicate more time and effort than a pro will because they can while I know many fulltime "pros" who have crummy work that is enough to get by...

"A professional produces a high-quality product or service. An amateur produces a medium-to-low quality product or service."

Ever see the Ameteur category on the IPA's? Not every Amateur is a craigslist photog

Maybe your first line answers this. I do know people who do work for others for cash(retired and love doing it) and their work is top tier. Somebody like this is at a whole different level than the 20yr old mom who got a d5100 for Christmas and wants to start a serious photography business (amateur by your analogies)

To add to what you said however,

a pro (or serious amateur) has backup gear in case of error or malfunction and backs up his/her files (and sometimes even negatives) on an offsite storage system, an amateur doesn't.

a pro checks his/her gear before and after every shoot, empties his/her cards directly after a shoot, and charges his/her batteries immediately after a shoot so they are ready for the next shoot.

A pro will scout a location and familiarize him/herself with a location prior to a shoot (including studio shooters), an amateur will not.

Pros "make" photographs even when they are taking them... Amateurs only take photos.

Pros know the rules AND know how to break them. Amateurs either don't know the rules or strictly and religiously follow them.

Pros don't show the Good, Bad, and Ugly to a client just the good (and produce a high margin of good work so they don't feel that they have the need to.
Amateurs often give EVERYTHING to a client.

...

The problem is clear.

In plumbing, a Pro fixes a drain while an amateur often merely messes it up more and relies on duct tape. In photography the line is less obvious because quality of work doesn't equal amount paid. By the monetary standard I personally am "not" a pro (it fluctuates between 30-65% of my income) however based on the quality and the way I operate, I am absolutely a professional and do work with full-time pros from tome to time. Isn't a part time plumber still a professional plumber anyway?

Oh, my, I can see why this topic causes some to cringe. I suspect we all have various definitions of "pro", but TriShooter (reminds me of Kodak's Tri-X) I think has some important points. Because I do freelance so often, I have to shoot from a disadvantaged position at times. In 50 years, the "pros" on the other side of the fence have always been extremely considerate and avoid blocking my view of the track, for example. And these are the real pros who recognize that maybe the only difference between pro and amateur is the money exchanged. So, the "attitude" of a "pro" is setting an example for the "idealized" photographer and this is an important characteristic if one is to considered a "pro". Yet there are a few sleaze balls who behave in a profoundly selfish self centered manner and these may earn their living from taking photos, but are not, in my opinion, pros in any way shape or form.
It has been suggested we are on this forum to help each other and to have fun. I agree. And if anyone wants a before and after forum of photos, maybe this would be a great topic to start. We could see the work in a finished product which in my experience is "pro" work and maybe some folks could give descriptions as to how it is done.
Have a great day....

When looking at what makes a professional it is wise to remember that the Titanic was built by a “Professional” while Noah’s Ark was built by an “Amateur.” Professionals are not perfect but have certain things that differentiate them from others:

A professional learns every aspect of his craft. An amateur learns what he needs to know to get the work or the shoot done that day.

A professional carefully discovers what is required and wanted from a client to avoid misunderstandings and deliver the desired results while an amateur often will assume he understands when he does not.

A professional keeps his studio, or work space, clean and orderly while amateurs work in disorder looking for thinks they forgot to check on before starting.

A professional is focused and clear-headed while an amateur is easily distracted and frequently discombobulated.

A professional sees his own, and others mistakes quickly and takes steps to correct them at that point in the process, while amateurs do not see errors or overlook them and then endeavor to hide them in the end product..

A professional leaps at difficult opportunities to demonstrate his knowledge and competence while amateurs usually give referrals as they like to work under conditions as ideal as possible to stay within their comfort zone.

A professional finishes each job as quickly as possible and honors his deadlines, while amateurs seem to get buried by a lesser work flow and frequently miss the deadline, or hedge on the quality to meet the deadline.

A professional remains steady and coherent under less than ideal circumstances because he has the experience to handle almost any situation while amateurs get upset and are inclined to assuming the worst.

A professional spends his money, and his client’s money, wisely while an amateur is more impulsive in his urge to impress others with his importance and his equipment. An amateur buys a new backdrop when a pro might notice a movie screen that will accomplish the thing with a color gel and a flash.

A professional endeavors to get involved personally when others they are working with have challenges or problems to resolve them while an amateur does his job without considering the needs of those he is working with, averting his eyes from others people’s problems to focus on his own..

A professional incorporates positive attitudes into his production style with fundamental politeness, cheerfulness, enthusiasm, genuine interest, and a sense of teamwork and harmony, while amateurs tend to easily fall into negativity because wherever there are people things happen. Professionals turn these into opportunities while amateurs get upset; disappointed that their perfect shoot is going down the tubes.

A professional will finish the job regardless of the challenges while amateurs will give up throwing their hands in the air at the earliest acceptable opportunity when things are too difficult.

A professional produces more and better quality than expected while an amateur produces just enough to get by.

A professional produces a high-quality product or service. An amateur produces a medium-to-low quality product or service.

A professional earns high pay because he is skilled and handles adversity as an opportunity. An amateur earns low pay and wonders why, and probably feels it’s unfair.

A professional has FUN, and an extremely promising future, while an amateur feels like his future is rather uncertain and his fun has turned into work.

Using these criteria I am confident we have people who think of themselves as serious amateurs that are more professional than some professionals, and vice versa. The main thing is to have FUN and follow the road of continuous learning.

msmoto said:
I do almost everything on a pro-bono basis, especially for charitable or not for profit groups.

Same here, and I do it in a way that I'm not costing a (worthy) professional photog any money.

Mmm... having earned my living in the 60's and early 70's from photography, I suppose I am a professional. Today, after a career in a different field during which time I earned enough to not have to work at present, I have set up a business which does have the capabilities to sell photos. However, because I do not need the money at present, I do almost everything on a pro-bono basis, especially for charitable or not for profit groups. One can look at my photos and see this as they are often of community activities, fund raisers, etc. I think I am a professional. I do not see how one can remove that label except by using the term "retired" or "former" professional.
Does the word professional mean good. One might think so, but my experience is that there are very few "good" photographers in this world. Or maybe there a lot of "good" but few "outstanding" photographers. Most of us can produce a good photo from time to time and even a really nice one. But the great photographers stand out in our history and no one has to point them out. Interestingly enough, in the 1960's a wise photography instructor named Gerhard Bakker at the Layton School of Art in Milwaukee where I was fortunate to have studied, stated about a photograph.... "tried so hard to be different, forgot to be good." This sums up a heck of a lot of photographs today, some of mine included.
Maybe the absolute talent of the "professional" in terms of quality, is the ability to be a judicious editor and throw out about 90% or more of what one shoots.

From Red Bay, Alabama, sitting in my rolling studio.... have a great day, Ms. Tommie Lauer

Here is my two cents on the topic:

What Mike Gunter said is the truth but at the same time definitions are usually and often needed if for nothing else but to give us a general sense of direction and structure. Depending on the situation, it may or may not do much good to keep those definitions so rigid and inflexible. From this, I'd say that for a person to be considered a professional, two criteria need to be met; a) that person is an expert in the particular craft or duty he's assuming and b) that person uses that craft or duty to generate income.

At the same time what donaldjose said is also true. Perhaps the sensitivity inherent to this topic comes from the fact that there are some who, for any number of reasons, feel excluded from this title. Perhaps this feeling comes from the somewhat parallel and prestigious definition in the artistic world of being an artist. Then again a professional may not always be an artist and an artist is not always a professional. Art starts and ends with feelings. Simply, it's a mechanism that the artist uses to infect his feelings and emotions using his chosen medium into his audience.

Some may fall into the category of professional, some may be artist, others could be amateurs while yet some others might just be none of the above. However, these are all just labels and really don't amount to much at the end. What really matters is wether you are content with the work you produce or not.

Mike Gunter said:
"Mike Gunter said:

........While somewhat retired,...........

I have been looking for answer to question "are you a professional photographer?"
Yet again, Mike has the answer'

Hi all,

This is from another thread...

I'm not too inclined to comment on topic; every time it comes up, I cringe.

And it comes up too often.

Self worth shouldn't come from a moniker, but should be earned by doing something not once but over time, and adhering to standard practices in a field of practices. It's not exclusive; there's no club to join, no membership fees - at least I haven't seen any.

There's no doubt that some have received more training, have more skill, are more gifted, have more luck, have had better mentors, etc., but them's the breaks.

But in the end, if we can help each other out, perhaps we can further the craft for each other.

My best,

Mike

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