Sweet. RIP thread.

spraynpray said:

So you still sorted Bland?

It's all working great because of the help I got on here. My shoot yesterday was in RAW and it downloaded all the files perfectly.

I started it! ;)

MTP just rolls off my tongue sometimes w/o the brain being involved. It is the "common" non-UMS class.

You're right, Drab. Sorry about the perpetuated confusion.

Yea, looking online just now the D90 is PTP only, so filesystem corruption should only result from the camera battery dying during a write, faulty media, or Nikon really screwing up a standards implementation.

According to Mr K Rockwell there is no USB menu option for PTP or mass storage for the D90, it's only got PTP: kenrockwell.com/nikon/d90.htm
Here's another discussion about it if it helps: flickr.com/groups/nikon_d90/discuss/72157613514667737/
P.S. I'd stick to SanDisk and Lexar cards Bland.

My head hurts.

So is there a reference to this magic in the manual telling me how to change it, or if not, which one do I have on my D5000 and D90? Sounds like the one that gets corrupted if interrupted rudely 8¨\

For sake of this discussion PTP is MTP.
JA in your description of "safely remove blah blah blah" you are describing attributes of UMS / MSC.

Drives mount under USB Mass Storage Class.
Amongst the many characteristics of this is that many operating systems cache writes to UMS devices. This means that even through a piece of software may appear to be finished with the drive, and even though said piece of software may itself believe it is finished with the drive, the operating system will not have actually performed the write which had been requested of it. This means if one were to physically remove the USB device that the filesystem can be in an inconsistent state where the table of contents (FAT) need not actually represent what is found in the pages of the book.

I know I erroneously referred to MTP (Media Transfer Protocol, which is an extension of PTP (Picture Transfer Protocol)) earlier in the thread. My bad, a misthought on my part. For sake of this discussion they are the same thing.

PTP differs from UMS in that UMS gives the operating system full control of the memory card at a block level, meaning the operating system is responsible for 100% of the low-level treatment of the card. This can lead to problems as I described (when using a non-journaled file system.)

With PTP the camera itself remains in control of the memory card, and acts as a warehouse worker serving the operating system. Windows says to the camera "Delete file 1234" and the camera says "Ok, will do boss". The beauty of this system is that if the USB cable gets pulled at anytime during the conversation the camera either hasn't received an order, or the camera is busy performing the order and uninterupted by the pulled cable.

Contrast to UMS where the operating system itself does all the work. The USB cable in this example is like the umbilical cord attaching an old deep-sea diver to the boat (Windows) above. If at any time during the diver's work the umbilical is broken tasks will be left incomplete, and without records. This is filesystem corruption.

OK Johnny, thanks for responding.

At least it got me reading the manual in depth while I'm STILL waiting for the camera to arrive. Funny how few people know about or use properly the 'safely remove device' feature of their PC's. On the odd occasion when it hasn't done what it should and I got lazy and removed the card or camera anyway, I usually got some problem afterwards including an irrietrevably damaged SDHC on my wife's Oly.

So you still sorted Bland?

spraynpray, I think I may have led you astray in my post above. It turns out the D90 doesn't have MTP as a USB mode, either. I think the D5000 does, but both the D90 and D7000 only show up as a camera (PTP mode). This is why I don't usually trust my memory and I'm sorry if I wasted your time looking for it.

You can tell it's in MTP mode if you can "safely remove USB mass storage device X:" in Windows. It would show up as a mass storage device (like a flash drive) instead of a camera.

spraynpray said:
Hey guys,

I have been following this thread with interest but have still not found where the MTP mode is located in the menus. I am using the 'dumb' search in acrobat reader in a downloaded manual while I wait for my camera to arrive and it does not find it in the manual so a prod in the right direction would be appreciated.

Thanks, Andrew.

I never could find it either but someone said when you're downloading and it shows it's being downloaded from your camera it's in the MTP mode. Mine is showing D90 as the source when I download, so I'm assuming I am in the MTP mode.

Hey guys,

I have been following this thread with interest but have still not found where the MTP mode is located in the menus. I am using the 'dumb' search in acrobat reader in a downloaded manual while I wait for my camera to arrive and it does not find it in the manual so a prod in the right direction would be appreciated.

Thanks, Andrew.

MTP mode is not immune from filesystem corruption, but it is a good prophylactic, as (IIRC) Windows refuses to cache writes to MTP devices (meaning if you unplug the camera w/o doing a "Safely Remove Device" beforehand Windows hasn't delayed any writes to the card in the name of performance.) and unsafe removal of storage devices is the most common cause of FAT32 file corruption.

If you are happy with your workflow with the camera in MTP mode, I'd suggest leaving it there for that reason. Glad the problem appears to be fixed.

Thanks Drab and everyone else on your advice. I bought a new Promaster 8gb SD card today and I just downloaded 190 raw files at ease. Not sure what the specific problem was before but I think it may of been a combination of a bad SD card and needing the corrupt attributes off of my computer.

I did not change ports or cord because I wanted to see first if the problem was something else. Also, my computer was in MTP mode because it should my device as my D90.

Pewo, those are nice ideas, but they don't address the issue of filesystem corruption which we have already verified Bland has.

Your card test, also, doesn't answer why the card is to blame. There is a very important distinction, as filesystem corruption is to be expected in non-journaling filesystems on removeable media, and one needs to be prepared to fix it. If one were to replace their flash media everytime FAT32 misplaced clusters even Bill Gates would be poor.

Because of this, and because the probability of FS corruption is much higher than the probability of actual flash corruption, one should always bet the odds and swing for quick, easy, free, and likely choice, which is chkdsk.

Bland, I don't know where it is in the D90 manual, jonnyapple mentioed where he thought it was, but I don't know. If your D90 shows up in Windows Explorer as a camera it is in MTP mode. If it shows up as a drive letter it is in UMS / MSC mode.

Bland

I will add my thoughs and I hope they are helpful. Whenever strange things start to happen the only way in my experience to figure it out is to look at each individual part of the puzzle first:

*Do you have a firewall/antivirus program like Norton Internet Security 2010? Is it up to date?

*Have you installed all the monthly updates that Microsoft publishes for XP and Office?

*Do you know how full is your hard drive? If its pretty full, have you run the disk defragmentation program under accessories/systems tools?

I am asking this stuff to see what is the health of your system overall, as the problem could be coming from somewhere else.

To see if it is the card, I would spend $15 and get a new SDHC card from B&H or similar. Dont by junk, but it doesnt have to be fancy for now. Put it in the camera and let the D90 format it. Take pictures then try to download. If it works, you know it was the old card.

However, you mentioned you were using a card reader. Most cards sold today are SDHC cards, and older card readers do not accurately read SDHC cards. So its possible that is your problem - an out of date card reader. I do know that your old computer needs an up-to-date SDHC reader to work. I have a Transcend external reader for my XP machine that works great.

One last thought: when I transfer raw files and/or jpegs instead of doing a traditional download I do a copy/paste. Of course it "is" a download from the card, but perhaps it might get around your problem. Worth an experiment! I have never an issue doing this way and the files are just fine.

I hope something here helps!

P

Drab, where do I check to see if it's in the MCS or MTP mode? Thanks!

Bland said:I'm going to get another SD card on Monday and I'm also going to get a card reader just in case this problem happens again.

The odds of it being physical block corruption (needing a new card) and not simply filesystem corruption are very small.

A card reader will not prevent this, or aid in fixing it. If anything a card reader, because none that I have seen mount in MTP mode, increases the odds of filesystem corruption as opposed to the no-caching-of-writes defaults of MTP mode under Windows. A card reader is simply a convenience in that one does not need to use their camera (and camera battery) to download. Also many card readers are faster than many cameras.

Wow,..look at me,...I just noticed I am a senoir member,...

*Bland,...Do you reformat you card after you download your fles? Instead of deleating them,...you should reformat. If you dleete,..it still leave "little fragments" of information scattered on the card,..formating truly wipes the entire card.

Merry Christmas to all,...

Testing123...thanks for the info, I just ran it like you told me and it had a ton of corrupt attributes and etc it fixed. I'll also try another cable and port on Monday as I have an event to shoot and I'll shoot it in raw to see if this fixed it.

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm going to get another SD card on Monday and I'm also going to get a card reader just in case this problem happens again. I'll post the results here on Monday.

Merry Christmas everyone and thank you for all the help you have given me and others this year!

I tend to agree with Drab that you have a corrupt card. Though you might have a bad USB cable or port. Have you tried a different cable or port?

Formatting a card from the camera does a quick format TTBOMK, and won't catch errors.

On Windows 7 right click the drive in Explorer->Properties->Tools->Error Checking->Check Now. I bet it is the same in XP.

I can copy the raw files that are on my computer but I can't from my camera. I reformat my sd card everytime I use it, it's an 8GB PNY SDHC.

I have Windows XP Home Edition and I know nothing on how to check for drive errors.

Bland said:
Drab, sorry for the confusion. The computer didn't shut down it just stopped the download.

Good

Bland said:
It may just be my entry level emachine doesn't have the horsepower to download a large batch of raw files.

I can assure you this is not the case.

Bland said:I was using the Nikon Transfer for the downloading.

Let's take the third part (software) out of the equation. Can you copy them using Windows Explorer?

I'm now suspecting filesystem corruption on your memory card. Do you know how to check a drive for errors in Windows?

Drab, sorry for the confusion. The computer didn't shut down it just stopped the download. I was using the Nikon Transfer for the downloading. I went through my computer and checked everything as you said and it was all set correctly.

I went through all of the D90 menu but couldn't find anything for a MSC (USM) mode or MTP mode. I'm not sure what that is. I'll do some more checking on these modes once I get back this afternoon.

It may just be my entry level emachine doesn't have the horsepower to download a large batch of raw files.