Rx4Photo... The problem with photography is that there is a relationship between cost and quality and features. It's a good generalization to say that its a bit like the size of computer disk drives; the more you pay, the more you get.

Not that equipment by itself improves (for example) your composition skills, good gear just lets you overcome technical problems much more easily.

At some point in shooting lots of pictures, you will bump into the limits of the gear and your own abilities. In my view, that you recognize your need to shoot with faster glass is a good sign. You have bumped into an equipment limitation and have recognized it. Equipment (fast glass over slower glass) is a problem that is easy to fix. You only need money (!)

All it takes is money and practice (shoot more pictures) which really costs nothing on a DSLR once you have purchased it. Oh yes, and also read lots of photography books and read comments on forums like this one. Did I also say shoot more pictures?

As for agonizing over the cost, I'd rather have an f5.6 long lens than no long lens. Sure, I'd rather have an f2.8 or an f1.8, but if I cannot afford one, too bad, at least I have one.

If my budget does not go to a $2,000 lens and only lets me spend $200, and I cannot control that, then as I am not a pro and as the mortgage will still get paid if I have that $200 lens, I won't lose too much sleep over it. When I win the lotto......

:-)

Good luck.

This type of scenario is what's nagging at me right now. I've got 8 year old twins (I married late, kids came even later) and I just know that my future is going to be filled with sporting activities, stage, recitals, etc. The only "fast" glass I've bought so far is the 35mm f/1.8 but I agonize over the price of fast zooms. So far I've already taken darker than desired images of them playing keyboard at an outside Christmas concert under a covered pavilion. But, I've still got a lot to learn about adjusting exposure and flash.

tcole1983 said:
I did have my flash, but at the distance we were at it wasn't showing up at all so I took it off because it was just adding weight.

It always makes me smile when the point and shoot crew use flash on a scene from 100 yards or *more* away and wonder why they get great pics of the three rows in front of where they are sitting and nothing else. At least the two girls in front of me with a P&S type camera didn't use flash and got something that according to what we overheard, they can post to Facebook! I'm sure it'll be a case of "Mister blurry-cam strikes again", but they were happy with it.

My kid is looking to be a doctor (orthopedics as it happens), so we have at least 4 more years of supporting him. Our hope is he will help keep my wife and I in our old age - LOL - or at least help me out by buying some fast glass for Christmas with his potentially massive future income!!!!

Sorry I was out and about most of the day. I will have to read everything more careful tomorrow. Couple problems. We were in auditorium type seating so where we were sitting there was no option for using any sort of tripod or monopod. The seating also threw out any chance of getting up and getting closer...it was a college graduation for graduate degrees (masters or doctorates) and yeah, it wasn't going to happen. I had originally taken some practice shots when we got there, but they dimmed the lights when the ceremony started and so that made it even worse :( I did have my flash, but at the distance we were at it wasn't showing up at all so I took it off because it was just adding weight.

I luckily saw her when they were getting ready and used my flash and got a couple of good pictures, but none turned out of when she walked across the stage or was standing in line before she walked across. Also then we took a couple of family shots and it was just a combo of things. People looking the wrong way or moving and the light was fine on that. I had my 35 f1.8 on at that time, but when I handed it to my sister in law I should have thought to put it on auto, but instead it was probably on like f8 and not shooting fast enough for someone that has a 10 year old P&S.

Anyway I was just disappointed overall. It was really the first important type shooting I have done indoors with some poor lighting and it really whooped me. I know of things that could have been done, but other then cranking the ISO all the way up I couldn't do much of the other options. Under the controlled settings I put my flash on and got some good pictures, but it was when the lighting was bad and stuff that it sucked. Lol more of a complaint at myself overall and not any equipment. A couple pictures could have turned out better if I had been thinking or paying attention more (like checking them on my LCD after I took them).

Oh yeah and no doctorate for the wife. Time for me to work on my masters though maybe. It made me proud and a little jealous at the same time.

@Gelu88: "I would add this wonderful post..." Absolutely. I see much of it is about how to set your stance up like a tripod! The first one (elbows in) is normally the #1 tip we - all of us - have forgotten at some time or another ;) I like the idea of improvising with a Gorillapod and I'll look into using one of those in the future.

@jonnyapple: Thanks for the welcome. You had better light than I did. 1/60th was about the best shutter speed I could count on. About being lazy, I did a group shot for my office of about 60 people. I used the tripod to mount the camera and used the ML3 remote to fire it. It let me concentrate on entertaining the large group and setting up the shots. Not at all lazy... ESSENTIAL even in broad daylight.

@LoveTheBerry: Some of us are not professionals, but enthusiasts. D3s or D7000 bodies and F2.8 or faster glass isn't something we can just go out and buy knowing that we can write off the cost against our corporation taxes next April; My gear comes out of my net pay. I take your point however as good gear can go a long way to prevent these issues. Have a Merry Christmas to you and yours too - take lots of great shots. :)

*Another thought,....using the "VRII" on a tripod CAN cause more issues that not having it at all. I was told to turn off the "VRII" while using the tripod.

*To foto's thought,...I carry my 70-200 2.8 with me at all times and have never had an issue. The ThinkTank belt has an awesome lens holder system that allows me to have the lens of choice vs. lens that with me.

*High ISO on a D3s is not much of an issue with noise as with other cameras. If you are a "Pro" and making a living on this,..why not invest in your equipment? I remeber a story about a Wedding Photographer that had an "Issue" with a client. When it went to court, the judge asked about the equipment used. The photographer was using a entry level camera and lens, a Superstore instead of a Lab for printing and lost their BEHIND in court. As I said in the past,..would I want to have my surgeon using "entry level" forcepts, cautery, devices? No,..I want him/her to have the best and whatever they are comfortable with.

*Lastly,..I love reading your comments. You all are very talented and a great resource for information and bouncing ideas. Thanks and have a Merry Christmas (not too politically correct,..huh?)

I was in a convocation yesterday, too, and they were very photographer-friendly; great light, too, as they handed out the diploma covers next to a wall that was about 70% windows. Sorry about the bad experience, tcole.

Some great advice here. Welcome to the forum, bjrichus.

About the monopod, I have one and like it, including for panning on moving subjects. I prefer my tripod because it holds itself up. Lazy, I guess. ;-)

I would add this wonderful post on how to hold your camera to minimize camera shake. I rarely see these positions being used but they really work well depending on the circumstance.

http://www.digital-photography-school.com/how-to-avoid-camera-shake

Also, another thing i do is use my gorillapod; while shooting an opera for a paper, i sat in my seat, put my feet on the seat so my knees were level with my face, and shaped my gorillapod to be stable on my knees, this worked very well. A beanbag would also do the trick in this situation

also, placing the gorillapod against your chest while standing creates a psudo-chest harness, and as long as you breathe properly it works well

foto2021 said:
Tripods and monopods are not of much use with moving subjects, which was the OP's problem.

If I may?

Yesterday, I was in exactly the same situation as the OP (see my earlier lengthy comment).

A monopod allowed me to get sharp shots when hand holding alone would not and my subject was moving about quite a bit, waving hands and jumping up and down with the emotion. I used the movement to produce a couple of shots showing that dynamic nature of the event. I need to posterize one of the shots with more blur in it in Photoshop and it'll be a bit of an 'arty' image. The other 56 images of the day (I deleted another 40 or so 'failures') are good.

These people were not really sports shots, or street or journalistic subjects. A D7000 (couple of stops faster ISO than my current older DSLR body) and a lens one stop faster would have sorted it for me at least. Remember that not everyone is on the "upgrade the same day a product is released" (or as amateurs, can afford to be) bandwagon.

As Mike says, using a support is out of fashion these days, and in this situation it is not like I am trying to look like Henri Cartier Bresson would with a small hand held 35mm rangefinder camera, now is it? The monopod works, and I'm going to do what works to get the shot within the limits of my budget. If that means I'm carrying a pole with a camera on the top at this event, then that's what it takes.

Mike Gunter said:
You might even, heaven forbid, consider a tripod or monopod. I probably am the only person on the forum who uses one, and I use one for nearly all my shots. Not terribly convenient at all, but it really helps.

Tripods and monopods are not of much use with moving subjects, which was the OP's problem. VR lenses reduce the effects of camera shake but do nothing to reduce motion blur.

The answer is to use the highest ISO setting that you can get away with. While this will increase noise, at least some of that noise can be removed in post-processing.

For a one-off occasion such as a graduation, the shooter has to decide what matters most. Choose between (1) subject blur and low noise, or (2) a crisp, sharp shot and higher noise that can be reduced (if not eliminated) with careful post-processing. I would choose (2) and increase the ISO until I had a shutter speed that all but eliminated motion blur. You may choose differently.

Someone else suggested buying an expensive f/2.8 VR lens. This is not the answer unless you are going to make enough use of that lens to justify its high purchase price. Bear in mind that the 70-200mm f/2.8 VR lens is a large, heavy beast. It is likely to get left at home because of its weight and bulk. The occasions when you need f/2.8 may be few and far between, which is why Nikon is reported to be working on an f/4 version.

It may be worth upgrading to a camera body that offers low noise performance at higher ISOs, such as the D7000 (DX sensor) or D700 or D3 (FX sensor). I use my D3 for theatre work (under contract) and find that images shot at ISO 12,800 need very little post-processing.

Hi BJ,

Tripods are more and more of a necessity for me due to my age, of course, but it does keep things sharp.

Perhaps a tripod thread is in line. Better do a search first. ;-)

@Lovetheberry,

I'm in lust with FX, and I'm trying to convince myself that I need the F700, but I'm not sure that is just a green grass/other side of the hill thing.

While there are absolutely better pictures to be made the camera, I equally sure that my market base wouldn't notice. If I bought the camera, it would be me I'd be pleasing.

My best,

Mike

I've always heard that "It's the Photographer,..not the camera", but i this case,..a D3s and a 70-200 VII would make this picture work.

I still believe that you have to have the knowledge,..but,.....

My suggestion,..that WONDERFUL camera store in NYC can ship you intime for Christmas!

Mike Gunter said:

You might even, heaven forbid, consider a tripod or monopod. I probably am the only person on the forum who uses one, and I use one for nearly all my shots. Not terribly convenient at all, but it really helps.

Mike, I couldn't agree more. A support of some kind is often a really helpful item. As one gets a little older, shake levels increase - too much good living. LOL... Seriously, I find that even my el-cheapo tri and mono pods lets me shot at 1/60th or even (most of the time on the tripod) 1/30th and be tack sharp. It is a modern (35mm street photography inspired) trend not to use a support.

I recall reading in several text books - especially for large scale landscape and portraiture that a tripod is not an accessory but a necessity. When my kid graduated high school 4 years ago, we had the classic graduation shots done by a pro photographer in our town. The camera she used was a for then a top end DSLR costing several thousand but the support was this huge wooden and steel contraption, bolted to a massive concrete base. She said they had it made for them and it cost more than all of the cameras they used.

Perhaps a subject for another thread? ;)

Mike Gunter said:

Congratulations to your wife! Getting a Master's Degree is a terrific accomplishment!

Buy her something nice!

Absolutely. I wonder if there is a Phd on the way too? ;)

Rx4Photo said:
Your next line should be..."that's my story and I'm sticking to it...I NEED faster glass, sweetheart!!!!" ; P

ROFL.... I know what my wife's reply would be.... :(

Lots of interesting advice here about low light shooting, but for me, super fast lenses are not an option. I am not a rich person or a pro, I can only afford relatively slow longer lenses myself.

As my kid graduated yesterday and I was in exactly the same situation myself as TCOLE1983 was, here are a few tips I got from a sports pro photographer several years ago and I hope these might help someone else as they saved the day for me:

1. Get to the venue early. This lets you scope out the best location to shoot from and get practice shots in without being rushed. You can then know what works and what does NOT work. This lets you PLAN for the best shots and know what not to bother with; less stress and a better chance of success. Also sit on the end of the row of seats (see #4).

2. Use a monopod. When you are in a poorly lit stadium (as I was), a monopod is useful when a tripod is not permitted or possible.

3. Stand up. It might be rude to those behind you, but if you are there early (see #1) you can practice this to get good and quick at it. Lets be honest, being "up" for a few seconds when you HAVE to so you get the one shot you need, is better than missing it! Many photographers will tell you to overcome the embarrassment of getting in the way of someone who is waiting for their kid/wife/whatever to walk across the stage, which 99.999% of the time won't be for ages yet.

4. Stand on the stairs. I did a few shots adopting the "tripod position" (with the monopod as one leg of the three of course) standing on the otherwise almost empty stairs next to the row of seats I was in (seated on the end seat makes this EASY).

5. Use a monopod. I said that already, but reason #2 for this is that the best I know I can do hand held at the venue without flash (I was about 60 yards from the stage and using a 70-200mm lens) was right on the border of visible shake. Using a monopod lets me be almost 100% steady, so I was able to also use MANUAL settings... No flash at 1600ISO, 1/60th to 1/125th at F5.6-ish and I got a series of slightly noisy but well lit and tack sharp shots with just a small touch of movement blur showing where people were walking or waving fast. In short, while not perfect, I got the shots.

If I had something like a D7000 I might have been able to go to 3200ISO and a higher shutter speed and get lower noise levels, but I don't (yet), so that's just too bad. You can't worry about the things you can't control and I did at least get the shots I wanted.

It's almost impossible to get good pictures while sitting... However, before changing equipment, you should read this post from Thom Hogan: http://www.bythom.com/blame.htm

Why didn't you walk nearer? Could you use a (set of) flash? Did you try beforehand some dummy shots to check white balance, histograms etc?

tcole1983 said:
I did crank the ISO up some because I was taking to practice shots before they started walking across the stage. Kind of hard to use a tripod when sitting in seats...well actually impossible or I would have. Also it was like a one shot thing...as a person is walking it is kind of hard to make any changes.

Hi, Don't be afraid of cranking the ISO all the way up, yes they will have noise, but you might actual have workable pictures. There are software that can help removing some of the noise issues also

Pete

I did crank the ISO up some because I was taking to practice shots before they started walking across the stage. Kind of hard to use a tripod when sitting in seats...well actually impossible or I would have. Also it was like a one shot thing...as a person is walking it is kind of hard to make any changes.

Mike - You are not the only one on this forum :)

tcole - solution is simple, get d3s + N70-200vr2, and You'll be able to take snaps even in the night :) but seriously high iso + flash is the only solution in such cases. You can also shoot RAW and underexpose 1 stop - You gonna get sharper (faster shutter speed) pictures that needs to be corrected during PP.

I had one of those days the other day. It made me feel like crap for days and also I had a bad shoot today. :/ it just sucks but I'm hoping to get some wonderful images soon or I'll have to give away all my gear :P

Mike Gunter said:

You might even, heaven forbid, consider a tripod or monopod. I probably am the only person on the forum who uses one.

A tri or mono what ?????? Never heard of them :-)

Mike Gunter said:

Buy her something nice!

Yes, get her a 70-200 VR2, she'd like that! (remember to duck on your way out).

Hi tcole,

A faster zoom is great, but then you also have a shutter speed that you'd want watch. As Segura pointed out, a higher ISO (if your sensor and surroundings can afford it) might also help.

You might even, heaven forbid, consider a tripod or monopod. I probably am the only person on the forum who uses one, and I use one for nearly all my shots. Not terribly convenient at all, but it really helps.

Likely as not, you know all this and much, much more. What I would caution you on is that the weight of the fast lenses is a burden (pun not intended), and might actually cause some unintended additional blurriness. For the images to be sharp (considering the DOF), you'll likely stop down a bit anyway. Perhaps not as much as the widest as the slowest kit lens, but near it. So, your "average" gain on the main, may not be so much.

I'm suggesting that you work with what you have, for technique anyway, before you jump into another lens.

Congratulations to your wife! Getting a Master's Degree is a terrific accomplishment!

Buy her something nice!

My best,

Mike

I had the same type of day, tcole. We had our Christmas today and my flash wouldn't fire correctly. All I can figure is it was the first time I used rechargeable batteries in my SB400.

tcole1983 said:
Wife graduated today and the auditorium had pretty terrible lighting, but just all around I felt like I was shooting bad. About half blurry pictures, but I am not sure I can help it with moving people in bad light. I have my mind set now to save some money for a faster zoom then my 18-200. We were then taking some family shots and I gave the camera to my sister in law and had it on A mode...so those are all blurry as well. Just a disappointing day all around taking pictures and I feel bad especially since it was my wife's graduation for her masters degree :( I did at least get one pretty good shot of her before everything...so not a total failure, but almost.

Your next line should be..."that's my story and I'm sticking to it...I NEED faster glass, sweetheart!!!!" ; P

I'm a beginner photo and just got into DSLR world. I have problems in low light with my 35mm 1.8 when autofocus...so usually if I notice blurriness I just switch to manual and it seems to do the job. I know it takes somewhat longer, but worth it if you can't find the autofocus working...but if you are talking about blurring like movement I would have to agree with Segura and the ISO part...I also switch to fully auto no flash if I see my pictures being messed up just to see if it is my settings (like I said I'm a noob, but it is the only way I know what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it). Don't know if this helps