Pabnj, thank you for thinking that, I believe I found it and I'll hold on to it. I'm lucky to know what I wanna be at such a young age

Thank you Foofie, at least somebody understood my point, and that Super Shooter & I were not talking about samething.

Smarterchild, you are on the right track, keep-up the good work. Personally I think you found your calling, and a lucrative career.

Of course! im going to be there next year and then probably going to live there for a while after i graduate. but i love chicago. Visited columbia 2 years ago and just fell in love with it and knew it was the school for me. I dont know why but you just have those feelings in thoose types of things..

I got like that with jobs and thats why i charged free or dirt cheap while starting. After you build up some confidence and knowing youll get some good photographs then youll do fine. It just takes time to build yourself up :). I cant believe i did that wedding this summer, I was encouraged mostly by the bride that id be great. and i did. I had nightmares/bad dreams about somthing bad happening at the wedding after i actually shot the wedding. Worried somthig may happen to the photos. But like this thread was about.. you start out small and move bigger and then you start making some money and then youll get paid as a pro. it all takes time

yeah thanks. All that aside, I am very impressed that you do all this. I would never feel comfortable doing this, hah. I just shot those engagement photos for my friends and I did that gratis (obviously because they were not only my friends, but because it was my first time doing anything of that nature), and as enjoyable as that was, I don't think I would do it again.

Unless I am making it up (I'm too lazy to look through this thread) you said you are going to go to columbia (in chicago) for college right? Very cool, I had an aunt that went there, and I almost applied there too (I ended up deciding not to go to an art school, and didn't apply to any), but either way next time I'm in Chicago we should have a little NR meet up :)

Good point foofie :). Amateurs do need to start up from somewhere. And i have brought myself up to a higher level then most amateurs. Even tho a lot of people thought this was my first job after ive posted my history.

But in all ways i thought you were right foofiebeast.

or you could just not act like our parent and let us talk niko. :) I think my last post was pretty nice considering he just called ameteur photographers trying to make a name for themselves pathetic. But I don't see you cleaning that up :)

Ok guys clean this thread up a bit and deleted some of the back and forth "name" calling that started up at the end here. Unless someone has something new to suggest I think this thread is done.

smarterchild said:
I recently did a baby shoot where i handed them a disk of roughly 60 pictures of both color and b+w. She was very happy with the pictures and she told me she wanted some black and white pictures with a little color accents on them ( like hat in color or bow in color or whatever) and i told her that i would edited a few and told her to message me which ones she would like redone in any way like that... And this is what i got..

"I would like the following in black & white:
6788; 7037; 7051; 7091; 7156; 7257; 7323; 7353; 7408; 7493; 7552; 7626;

-----
6886; 6916; 6961 black& white with colored tie
7037 photoshop out the black strings on Isla's face"

I told her there was no way i could get this done this weekend, Which i told her i could have a few redone this weekend. I also want to tell her i want more for the orignal price since im looking at a few more hours of photoshop work. any suggestions?

==============================

I would suggest that you evaluate the amount of over all time that you spend on a project - not just the time you spend clicking the camera.

This includes consultation, drive time (front end & back end), archiving / backing up photos, post processing, burning disks, etc. Take a piece of paper and track the time you spend on each step for the client. Take that total and divide it in to the amount you are paid that will give you approximately your hourly rate. I hate to say it but you will supprised.
Of course this doesn't include computer hardware / software, camera equipment purchase / maintenance, business license, insurance, web desing, gallery, training, marketing and many many other expenses.

You might check the http://www.PPA.org and see the calculator that might be of assistance. Another starting point would be a training that Jen O'Sullivan webcast a couple of days ago that you can see at - *Link Removed*
Joe
===================================

P.S. Yes I'm sure you now realise the importance of a written contract clearly laying out what you expect from the client, and what they can expect from you. Get them to sign a copy, and make sure you have professional insurance!

Smarterchild, I've been reading all the post that you've received, I wasn't going to get involved in what seems to have become a rather heated debate, but I now feel I'd like to add my opinion. Firstly, I think the shots you've shared with us are great, others may disagree, THAT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. All that matters is the person who's paying for your services is pleased with them. It doesn't even matter if you like them or not! There will be plenty of times in what I am sure will be a bright future, when you are commissioned to do a shoot that you feel dubious about, in that I mean you will think that what you are being asked to do might not look good, or be to your taste. By all means shoot what you like for you, but when someone else is paying for your time, what they think is wonderful is wonderful. By all means give them your opinion if you think it would help, but they run the ship. Don't let anyone tell you what is or isn't a good photo. Beauty is most definately in the eye of the beholder.

Secondly, don't let anyone tell you what is the right or wrong price to charge. Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. All that matters is that YOU feel that their valuation is the same as yours. If you do, great! Would I value my time as you did, NO, why, because experience has show me, what you are now learning, and I think have now learnt. All of us have made mistakes in our careers (and still are), you've done exactly the right thing in my opinion, the experience and shots in your portfolio are more important at this early stage in your career than the money. Just get stuck in and practice, practice, practice. Then you'll feel that your time is more valuable, or when you have 3 people asking you to do a shoot on the same day, the principles of supply and demand will kick in. I also congratulate you on your choise of equipment, I think it says a lot to a client about your dedication. Sure it's the person pressing the shutter release that makes the picture, and you can certainly have all the latest equipment and still be a lousy photographer (the opposite is also true), but you got yours for exactly the right reason. Well done, I wish you nothing but the best for the future, and keep those pictures coming, I'd love to see some more of your work!

Super I do value my work, I do understand that it's my time and time traveled time editing and cost of equipment but everyone has to start somewhere. I started out at 50 and moved up from there and did it by case by case basis. I got 300 for a shoot then next one iknow someone so I charge 100. I thought 125 was a good medium competing with local and state photographers here. Iknow one who charges 150 and drives anywhere in the state to photograph and that includes print proofs and everything. He has to pay for two D3's. My work so far has paid for my 85 1.4G, 50 1.4G and my 70-200 upgrade to VR and I've had less then 10 jobs this year. I'm happy and I'm bumping up my shoot costs to 150 and my wedding cost is 800 Without CD and if they want a cd of the pics it's 500 and if they wanna buy prints thru me I make a fortune at 4$ for 4x6 and 20$ for 8x10. I'm not pro yet and I'm just trying to get out there and so far doing these jobs have gotten me additional 3 jobs. Both of my recent baby portraits want me to photograph them again for Xmas photos so that's another 125-150.

Bland said:
Baby pictures, school pictures and wedding pictures are all venues where you will deal with women.

WTF does that mean? He should stick to dealing with men only? You honestly think a man would never screw him over? I'm starting to understand why there aren't very many (if any) women in this forum!

foofiebeast said:
lol, but you guys aren't saying the same thing. You for some reason seem to be thinking that the price he charged was too low, when that really isn't the issue.

The price is up to him, if he wants to charge $20 for the shoot and 15 cents for post edits, that's up to him, if he FEELS thats worth his time, then thats all that matters, as long as he sets up those prices to begin with.

pabnj said that as a photographer you need to sell yourself otherwise you aren't going to be doing much shooting. He also said something like photographers need to be sales people first and photographers second. I've been saying that he shouldn't sell himself short! Sounds the same to me. Smarterchild can and should charge more for his work! I can't believe you honestly think paying this kid $20 dollars to shoot twin babies with his D3 and whatever other pro equipment he has is perfectly fine? WTF?

So what if he's a kid, he might not have the experience yet but that doesn't mean people shouldn't value his work! Give him some credit my god. I can't believe after being photographers yourselves and knowing that there's more to it then just the camera and lens you still don't think money is an issue in this case.

I guess it's true that amateurs don't value their work. They only want recognition regardless of what it pays. That's pretty pathetic.

Super Shooter said:
Not sure why you want to keep dancing around the boxing ring with me pabnj? We both seem to be saying the same thing.

lol, but you guys aren't saying the same thing. You for some reason seem to be thinking that the price he charged was too low, when that really isn't the issue. For a kid with very little experience, charging more than that would be absurd. I agree with pabnj, the only thing to be learned from this is to make sure that you set up a more firm contract detailing exactly what you will do. The price is up to him, if he wants to charge $20 for the shoot and 15 cents for post edits, that's up to him, if he FEELS thats worth his time, then thats all that matters, as long as he sets up those prices to begin with.

Great shoot, the pictures are incredible. The situation you're in isn't a problem, it's just the way things go when shooting the venue you have chosen. Baby pictures, school pictures and wedding pictures are all venues where you will deal with women. It doesn't matter if you shoot for free, charge $125 or even $1,000, women will always try to get the most for their money.

You have nothing to be ashamed of on how you got your D3. Most people that have them had a spouse helping out in paying for it, their company paid for it or they're just filthy rich. The important part is you shoot it beautifully and that's all that matters!

Smarterchild, those photos look great. The business end of things will get easier quickly. This is just a productive learning experience. At worst, you are looking at a day's worth of editing for not-so-great compensation. Not the worst deal ever struck. Probably not even in the top 50,000 of unsavory deals struck in September 2010.

@Smarterchild.: Congrats on a good shoot! As a learning experience this will be one that will surely add to your experience! ;-). the D3 is a great camera and an I congratulate you in your dedication and focus to be able to get that gear at your age. It shows how serious you are to make it in the photography business. I think this experience also highlights that this is a very tough business and that your business acumen needs much more development. There are lots of gems of wisdom that you can glean from the posts here. think on them.

smarterchild said:
I recently did a baby shoot where i handed them a disk of roughly 60 pictures of both color and b+w. She was very happy with the pictures and she told me she wanted some black and white pictures with a little color accents on them ( like hat in color or bow in color or whatever) and i told her that i would edited a few and told her to message me which ones she would like redone in any way like that... And this is what i got..

"I would like the following in black & white:
6788; 7037; 7051; 7091; 7156; 7257; 7323; 7353; 7408; 7493; 7552; 7626;

I would like the following in color:
6791; 6820; 6826; 6837; 6871; 6886; 6916; 6937; 6940; 6961; 7027; 7041; 7084; 7124; 7154; 7156; 7296; 7337; 7366; 7399; 7437; 7479; 7521; 7581; 7632

I would like the following black & white with Isla's Flower (or Butterfly); Headband; and Tutu with purple color accent:
6791; 6826; 7051; 7124; 7154;

I would like the following Black & White with colored hats:
7257; 7552

I would like the following black & white with colored hats and sheet:
7323; 7337; 7399; 7408;
7437 black & white with colored hats only
7552 black & white with colored hats; colored sheets; & colored bumbo

7166 crop-out Wylder black & white; crop-out Wylder black& white with "w" and tie different color; crop-out Wylder in color
6927 black & white with "w" colored
7156 black & white with "w" and tie colored
7626 black & white with colored hats; black & white with colored hats & bumbos
7632 black & white with colored hats; black & white with colored hats & bumbos.
7136 crop-out Isla in black & white; crop-out Isla in black & white with flower, headband, and tutu colored; crop-out Isla in color
7564 crop-out Isla in black & white; crop-out Isla in black & white and colored hat; Crop-out Isla in color; Crop-out Isla in black & white, colored hat, & bumbo
6886; 6916; 6961 black& white with colored tie
7037 photoshop out the black strings on Isla's face"

I told her there was no way i could get this done this weekend, Which i told her i could have a few redone this weekend. I also want to tell her i want more for the orignal price since im looking at a few more hours of photoshop work. any suggestions?

Did you have an existing contract?

I always have a contract, regardless if I do a shoot for "free" (portfolio expansion), or paid. . .and then give a timeline in the contract. Make sure the sign it and you're golden.

Obviously the above exceeds original expectations, which is usually great if you're getting paid and have a contract in place. . .

that being said, it's also nice to have a client that knows what they want. . .

Not sure why you want to keep dancing around the boxing ring with me pabnj? We both seem to be saying the same thing.

But if she was not willing to pay the local pro price in the first place, what did the local pro loose? Nothing, because it was simply not worth it for her, but at a $125, she'd was obviously willing to pay that. The value of anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

We live in a very competitive society, and to get ahead & get noticed sometimes one needs to offer something exceptional, and many times unfortunately it is price. Besides, who would pay a beginner $1,000+ for having no experience? But as the seasoned pro, they need to think of themselves as sales people first, photographers second. Because if you can't sell yourself, you are not going to be doing much paid shooting. If you can sell yourself, the price works itself out.

Exactly man, he's practically giving his work away for free already! Of course she's going to want more freebies. When she shows her friends all the pictures and post processing she got for $100 bucks, guess how much they're going to want to pay him for their pictures. You see where I'm going with this? If he raises his prices then they'll just ask some other kid with a pro camera to do the job for even less just like he undercut the local pro photographers in his area originally.

Oh and giving away CDs instead of prints is a bad buisness model. She gets to make as many copies and prints as she wants for free and all he made from the entire deal was $125! I bet she even thinks she owns the copyright too.

If he tells her that he'll do 60 pics on a CD for free, and edit 10 of them to her specs for free, and he is willing to do it, fine. He just needs to set some bounds somewhere or else she'll call him morning noon, and night for freebies. The moment you introduce money into the equation, then you need to be specific as to what the customer can expect for the money. That's my main point, set the expectation of the customer.

@Superchild

Moral of the story is that you need to have a contract and a clear pricing per the work you do.

Learn your lesson. Don't repeat your mistake. Live another day.

So if he did the shoot for free and then told her he'd do more post work for free. It's OK as long as he tells her he's only doing post on three additional photos? Sorry but she'd still be taking advantage of his inexperience.

We would be having the same conversion regardless of the price because he was not specific with the customer as to what she can expect for $125. Then he sweetened the deal by offering a few free edits where she tried to take advantage of the situation. If she was handed a price list that stated 30-70 images on a CD $125, additional retouching $5.00 per image (just an example), then there would be no discussion here.

How is money not the issue? Would we be having this discussion if he did the entire thing for free? $125 for 60 photos and post processing plus a few free additional processing is selling yourself short regardless of how much experience or camera you have.

Striker said:
Wow!!!! I'm sure that Smarterchild will be very motivated in shooting after your comment!! Everyone deserve a push like that when he starts!!! :(

What the hell man? Are my words that powerful that they alone will crush his career in photography? What is this Sesame Street or some after school special? I'm not trying to put him down dude, I'm saying that his time and talent are worth more.