Here is the full frame of the above...

And, these cars are moving all over the place, so in a way it is like shooting a sports event where the direction of travel of the subject is not always known. I think for the price of USD $3000, the TC and 70-200 works very well.

OK, here is a crop from the 70-200mm f/2.8 VRII with the TC-20EIII. This is about 15% of the entire FX image. And it is shot at 1/400 sec, f/5.6 (wide open) with -0.7 ev. ISO 12,800.

The car was moving over 100mph and is about 600 feet from the camera.....

IMO, even with the 400mm f/2.8, at this distance one would not see a great difference, the only big factor is the sharpness would be higher as a result of lower ISO shooting at f/2.8 or using the TC-20EIII on the 400 would bring it up closer.

Thanks all for replying.

After giving it much thought I don't think a TC would cut it with D800/soccer, lacrosse use because of multiple player density in a relatively small area (as opposed to a big car moving in almost predefined path with no arms, legs, goalnet, and sticks); unless I use manual focus, which I don't 80% of the time.

As suggested by many, I am leaning towards a fast fixed lense, but don't need to upgrade till spring next year.

In the meantime am hoping for nikon to upgrade their 80-400 or 300f4, in which case I will buy either one (most likely 300) and keep the 80-200 for indoors/night use.

El_Pickerel suggested a non vr used 300/2.8, this will work very well; but they (AF-S D versions) are still 3k, to afford that I may have to sell 80-200 (probably get ~$650 to $500) and be left without an indoor/night time lense. I have the 85/1.8g but that doesn't serve the purpose all the times.

Maybe my financial situation would change, and I can buy 300 vr, still have 5 months to save.

I wish I'd hung on a bit longer for a 300/2.8 (I'd really prefer a 400 if I had a choice). A mint used one (400) was offered to me a few weeks ago and I didn't have the cash available so I started to sell off all of my Pentax gear but someone bought it the day I called to buy.. The 300/4 is a nice lens but doesn't grab my imagination for some reason. I really like the 14E II though.. I'd never use a 2x on these lenses.. I did buy one but couldn't return it quick enough when it turned my 70-200 VR2 to mush.

Nikoner said:
Advise wanted on D800+fast tele+tc

1) I wonder how a 70-200 vr2 with a teleconverter fare for soccer?

this is not a good combination with the D800. The 70 -200 is a fabulous lens, the D800 a brilliant high resolution camera

The x 2 converter will magnify any defects in the 70-200
and with a D800 those defects will show
You will not be much better off than simply cropping
The answer is one of the expensive super teles
300 f 2.8 + 1.4 converter
200 -400 f4
400 f 2.8 + 1.4; 1.7 and x2 converters

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=8053

Yes they are expensive, and sorry, if you want high, IQ you are going to pay for it

@ PaulR

Information has it that Leica built a one-off APO-Telyt-R 1:5.6/1600mm lens and it cost $2,064,500.

To see the photo http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=8053&page=3

I moved up to the Mk 111 converter quite a while ago.I now use it with a 300 2.8 =600 and a V1 2.7 crop factor = 1620. Needless to say this cannot be hand held but I shudder to think if Nikon made a lens this big what would it cost
When used with the V1 video mode , I am amazed at the quality, Ok I don't use this converter everyday but I would not be without it

@ bossa

No argument about the D800 having greater resolution characteristics....

So, if one wants good resolution, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/2.8, 500mm f/4 are the lenses of choice, used as suggested by El_Pickerel. And, the question for me is aways just how large does one want to go in the final print? I tend to be very pragmatic about all this.

For the money, I am still of the opinion the teleconverter is the best option.

msmoto said:
I have shot hundreds of race cars, some at high shutter speeds, some at slower shutter speeds. And, with the D90 and with the D4, I have no complaints with the 70-200mm f/2.8 VRII with either the TC-20EIII or TC-14EII. I wonder if the lens/
TC, camera body needs to be fine turned in cases where there is a problem. Now, shooting wide open with the TC...this may be where problems show up. I have not tested this out, but will be doing this in about three days shooting the World of Outlaws at Charlotte, north Carolina at night . I will use the 70-200 with TC 20EIII and try to remember to shoot some wide open.
But, the alternative to a 70-200 with teleconverter is a 200-400mm f/4.0 for nearly $7,000......or a couple of non-pro zooms to 300mm

Of course the 300mm f/2.8 with a TC-14EII would be a nice lens.

With due respect the OP is asking about use with a D800 and I doubt a D90 or D4 qualifies as an answer in this regard. The D800 will show up every fault in the optics if you zoom in to 100%. And why wouldn't you? You may as well buy a D4 or D90 if all you wanted was Lo-res. ;-P

Nikoner said:
Advise wanted on D800+fast tele+tc

I shoot sports indoors, outdoors, and at night under the lights.
Use a D800 as primary and D90 as backup.

I had bought the 80-200 2.8D as a stopgap measure till I can afford the 70-200 vr2, indoors I can get by with it, but for outdoors sports like soccer/lacrosse/baseball the tele end is limiting.

If you are shooting sports, I imagine the VR is not the greatest concern for you as you are stopping motion anyways. Maybe you can look at older pre-VR telephotos. The demand is much lower for these lenses - for example you could get an older 300mm f/2.8 lens for a steal.

I have shot hundreds of race cars, some at high shutter speeds, some at slower shutter speeds. And, with the D90 and with the D4, I have no complaints with the 70-200mm f/2.8 VRII with either the TC-20EIII or TC-14EII. I wonder if the lens/
TC, camera body needs to be fine turned in cases where there is a problem. Now, shooting wide open with the TC...this may be where problems show up. I have not tested this out, but will be doing this in about three days shooting the World of Outlaws at Charlotte, north Carolina at night . I will use the 70-200 with TC 20EIII and try to remember to shoot some wide open.
But, the alternative to a 70-200 with teleconverter is a 200-400mm f/4.0 for nearly $7,000......or a couple of non-pro zooms to 300mm

Of course the 300mm f/2.8 with a TC-14EII would be a nice lens.

My 70-200 VR2 was woefull with th e TC20 series 3 but great with the 14E II..as is my 300/4. The viewfinder is very dark with the converter and the 300/4 though. Keep in mind that a f/2.8 lens becomes a f/4 lens with a TC14 and 2 stops slower with the 20E III.

Advise wanted on D800+fast tele+tc

I shoot sports indoors, outdoors, and at night under the lights.
Use a D800 as primary and D90 as backup.

I had bought the 80-200 2.8D as a stopgap measure till I can afford the 70-200 vr2, indoors I can get by with it, but for outdoors sports like soccer/lacrosse/baseball the tele end is limiting.

I am thinking of trading it in for a fixed, fast lense.

I tried 300 af-s 2.8 vr2 it is magnificent indoors & out, and totally out of my reach at 6k.

300 f4 will not give desired shutter speed indoors and like 300/2.8 also be a bit long for inside use.

1) I wonder how a 70-200 vr2 with a teleconverter fare for soccer?

or

2) I wish there was something like a 200/2.8 vr3 @ ~ $2k in the pipes? (I cant afford the f2)

or

3) Keep the 80-200 and buy a 80-400 for outdoors day sports, when they upgrade it?

Eric said:
@andyp - Liveview and its' associated AF system uses the data at the image sensor, so Liveview focusing (contrast detect) is very accurate, (but slow).

Hi, sorry I'm late to this party, as one who has never had the courage to play with the manual AF adjustment on my cameras, because the opportunity to screw it up seems all too real, and the expertise to do it correctly seems beyond me, the above comment got me thinking Eric. Why can the camera not use its contrast detect system to calibrate the phase detect AF on the camera? Am I missing something? It seems to me if that was possible, then you could attach any lens/tc combination to the camera, perfrom the calibration, and all of your equipment could be set up quickly. I'm sure if it was that simple the system would already exist, can someone explain to me why it's more complicated than that?

@sevencrossing - TCs work fine on the 200-400. Prior to the D4 & D800, AF could be occasionally iffy with anything except the TC 14. Here is the Nikon Teleconverter Compatibility Chart:
http://www.nikonusa.com/en_INC/IMG/Assets/Common-Assets/Images/Teleconverter-Compatibility/en_US_Comp_chart.html

This chart has not yet been updated and still reflects the f/5.6 capability of the old AF system. I believe that with the new f/8 AF capability of the D4 & D800, all of the TCs will autofocus with the lenses listed on this page.

I have and enjoy the 200-400, but it is not great at infinity. I keep it under 300 meters and its great. But, it is quite large and I rarely even try using it without a monopod.

The 300 f/2.8 is phenomenal and it's great with TCs. I love mine and you can't go wrong with it... except that it is difficult to explain to ones' significant other that you need to spend $5500 on a lens in order to be able to spend another $500 on a TC.

msmoto said:
While I have the 400 and use it without hesitation with the TC-20EIII, I might recommend to someone the 300mm f/2.8, and both the TC-14EII and the TC-20EIII. The 300 is a lens which one can hand hold, the 400 is a bit to heavy, for me at least.

Thanks the 400 is £6500 the 300 "ONLY" £4000

msmoto said:
And, for those who are finding they do not get good images, technique may be the problem.

Well, for what it worth, i used the 70-200 + x2 III combination on a D700 with a pro tripod and a gimbel, shooting at Auto ISO min shutter speed 1/1000 @ f 8 for over a year with "acceptable" results

but some some reason when I use the same set up on the D800 the results do not cut the mustard

yes I tried with vr on and off and can see no difference

Here is a thread with some interesting data

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=3549

It would appear from data I have acquired in about 3,000 or more high speed car photos with the long lenses and the TC-20EIII, the performance of this on the back of either the 70-200mm f/2.8VRII or 400mm f/2.8VRII Nikkor will be entirely sufficient for a D800. And, for those who are finding they do not get good images, technique may be the problem.

Using any of these lenses above 600mm effective focal length (Full frame) becomes very tricky. As to the purchase of one, the decision making algorithm must be one of first determining the subject matter. Then the shooting conditions, and finally of course, the amount of money one wants to spend... the new 800mm f/5.6 Nikkor will be in the $20,000 range no doubt..

While I have the 400 and use it without hesitation with the TC-20EIII, I might recommend to someone the 300mm f/2.8, and both the TC-14EII and the TC-20EIII. The 300 is a lens which one can hand hold, the 400 is a bit to heavy, for me at least.

Sticking the TC-20EIII on the backend of the 600mm f/4... this is extremely long...about $1500 for carbon tripod, Wimberly Gimbal may be required.

Oh, while the TC will work on the 200-400, I am not a fan of this lens.....just think one may need to be using other equipment rather than trying to zoom, although some love this lens, albeit without the TC.

bossa said:
My advice to people considering a TC2x is to forget it unless you have a 12-16mp camera..............

+1

If you have a D800 and want to get the best from it, you are going to have raid the piggy bank and get some seriously expensive glass

200-400 f4
300 or 400 f 2.8
500 or 600 f4
I believe you can add teleconverters to any of the primes but I suspect not the 200-400

which one of the above 5 ?

cant make my mind up, I can hardly afford one, let alone 2 or more

at the moment the its between the 300 and 400 f2.8 and a 1.4 converter ( I already have the x2 )

msmoto said:
Someone wants more....so.... D90 NIKON, 70-200mm f/2.8 VRII NIKKOR, TC-20EIII, 1/800 f/9.0 ISO 400

Vehicle moving about 100mph (161 kph)

2000px version

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fantinesfotos/7402743118/sizes/o/in/photostream/

A D90 + 70-200 VR2 + TC2x shooting a racing car speeding at 100MPH (blur) and people are saying "thank you , you've answered my question" - you must be joking? Try that shot one more time with a D800E and see how you go. My advice to people considering a TC2x is to forget it unless you have a 12-16mp camera. A 2x TC works OK on a really good prime tele' and/or lo-res sensor but not on D800 (IMO). I would recommend using a crop mode on a D800 instead of a TC though as the combined imperfections of both optics are magnified whereas only one is enlarged otherwise. Just because something looks great on a 2MP web image doesn't mean it will be acceptable on a higher-res format. Computer monitors tend to run a 72dpi whereas a good print can be 300+dpi.

I'm happy with mine. Optical quality is exceptional.

Thanks Eric for the thorough and concise discussion, very helpful.

My weak link for testing is a good tripod and I think this weekend I might make that purchase. I am really into peace of mind, especially when I get random blurry photos, I want to know it is my error.

The 70-200mm is my first vr lens and I love the lens and vr.

I want to get the full set of TC's eventually, I will probably start with the 1.4. When I was getting my nerve up to buy the 70-200mm I had seen msmotos shots comparing the 70-200mm with a TC compared to a 400mm and that gave me more confidence in the versatility of the lens as an investment.

@Eric...

If you want to expand on this subject, you can always drop this same paragraph into this thread. A lot of folks simply do not know these facts about the difference between phase detect and contrast detect, so if you would...

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=4982

The issues are important as you pointed out...especially when wide open....I was actually fiddling with this in a restaurant yesterday, where I shot the PAD photo for today, and I think I had it at -2. But, I reset to -0- as I was not under the conditions necessary to do it properly.

@andyp - Liveview and its' associated AF system uses the data at the image sensor, so Liveview focusing (contrast detect) is very accurate, (but slow). The normal AF system uses an AF module (Phase Detect) that is separate from the image sensor. Consequently manufacturing variability can result in a slight difference between what the AF system "sees" and what the sensor does. AF fine tuning seeks to determine the difference between what the sensor sees and what the AF fine tuning system sees and compensate. This compensation varies from lens to lens due to the manner in which manufacturing tolerances stack.

Unless you have a good test strip and target, and a solid tripod, AF fine tuning can be frustrating. Basically, in order to be successful at AF fine tuning you need to eliminate all other possible sources of blur in the image. This includes wind, mirror slap, tripod shake, shutter press induced vibration etc. A tripod is NOT optional.

Your focus target should be vertical and next to the middle of your inclined test gauge. Focus on the target in liveview, snap a few photos (to make sure they are all the same), and then do the same with standard AF. If the in-focus portion of the inclined test strip is not the same as the liveview sample, you may benefit from AF fine tuning. (+) numbers move the focus point away from the camera whereas (-) numbers move the focus towards the camera. Once you know which way you are out, you can add in adjustment until the two match. ... Sometimes I just take a bunch of pictures at different fine tuning settings and pick the best. Note: Be sure to defocus the lens between test images so that the AF system has to bring the lens back into focus.

If you search "LensAlign", you will see one of the tools available. You can do the same thing with a yardstick or ruler. Youtube has several tutorials as well. However ... If you are happy with your lens and the pictures you are taking, don't worry about it and have fun. If you find that for the way you are using your photos the focus seems to be off in a consistent fashion, AF fine tuning may be the key.

If you want the piece of mind, build a test rig (or buy one) and get the two AF systems to match, or get the viewfinder AF system (Phase Detect) to match your best manual focus obtained while zoomed in in liveview.

I am probably way too anal about this stuff, but I get some satisfaction out of knowing that my lenses are properly setup. Remember that AF fine tuning is not even available on many Nikon bodies; the reason for this is that the issue is subtle and many folks will never notice. However, with the D800 / 70-200 f/2.8 combo, AF fine tuning (or the lack thereof) may rear its head.

Eric, I didn't know that the live view focus was not linked to the af fine tune, a friend with a sony alpha confirmed that. I had set up a test of a tomato stalk with a tiny bug on the surface closest to me and using the viewfinder focus had to adjust to -20 to get what I saw later as the same focus as live view. This was not a controlled test and I also realize this is not a discussion perhaps of af fine tune but it makes you wonder considering varying reports on TC's. Anyway, being a newcomer to the hobby it makes me squirm to think about my responsibility as a consumer and I can't imagine how I would be wiggling uncontrollably if I had just purchased an exotic prime.

That said, I went out today and shot a lot and it was inconclusive as to the actual necessary adjustments for af fine tune and the new 70-200mm. I was thinking of hiring this fellow in my town that repairs lenses to test the lens and body combo so I could get some mental relaxation. Oh, do I sometimes yearn for the days before the internet, the peacefulness and ignorant bliss!

Please keep this thread alive and nail this stuff down for us blurry eyed ducklings!