Yeah, I can't wait to get a cooler insulated with silicon aerogel... will make long outdoor excursions a breeze!

Thanks for that!. The Aerogels sure will have an impact (Dunlop are making tennis rackets from them! LOL sorry for the pun !! Rotten tomatoes welcome ! LOL! )

What a cool material ! Its almost the opposite of black silicon. in that it absorbs stuff. Black silicon will be revolutionary too! Solar cell are going to get a major boost in output and so many applications can come form the energy radiation properties as well.

Combined with Aerogels I can almost see a real life light saber! ie generate the aerogel blade from a combination of various aerogels, silica and alumina and carbon and infused with black silicone. would be light as air and strong too!

heartyfisher, I think you're a bit overly optimistic. I looked at all the pictures from the camera for which you linked a picture. All pictures from that camera were taken in jpeg format. This means they were likely post-processed in-camera to reduce noise. My old D1X has much lower noise at ISO 125 and ISO 200 than that camera has at just ISO 100. My D1X (2001 technology) can exceed the performance of that camera's ISO 800, 1600 and 3200 performance if I apply noise reduction in PP to the images from it to make my images as soft and blurry as the ones from that camera.

Quantum dots... dreaming. It *could* someday help, but quantum physics is still bleeding edge. We do not have any products, of any kind, in production which take advantage of quantum dots, quantum entanglement, etc. It's not going to show in in sensors this year, or this decade for that matter.

Black silicon may show up sooner. However, it's fairly freshly out of the lab. It takes a minimum of 10 years to bring something from the lab into manufacturing. Look at Silicon Aerogel. Heavy research into how to mass produce it has been going on for over 10 years and has yet to bear fruit. Seriously, google for it. It's an amazing material, and I *know* you'd love to take some pictures of it (it's really strange looking). Silicon Aerogel would have a much larger impact on the world and net a much larger profit for its producers than black silicon ever will, and they still don't know when (if ever) they'll be able to mass produce it.

Sorry, but I really think you're a bit too optimistic about this. I wish you weren't; I'd love to be able to pick up a DX format camera with D700-level performance in the near future. But, that's not going to happen :(

Yup! I was pretty happy with the old 100 ASA film and it looks like the DX format will be able to beat it by a factor or 2 at least in the years to come. So its all good.

heartyfisher said:
@ Jonnyapple- You may well be right on all points. But if you look at nikon's patent on the 3 refracted sensor under one micro lens. You can see that there is still room there. you basically have 4 times the area for each colour pixel. A fine harvest of photons to be gathers in that size.

Even if Quantum Dot is not real Black silicon sure is. and who know what else some innovative scientist is thinking up right this moment !! :-) sigh.. am I too much of an optimist?

I missed your reply somehow, hearty. Yes, you're right that the bayer filter is absorbing a lot of photons before they get to the photodiodes. It will be interesting to see who will first bring something to market to get around it, and the prism seems like a good idea to me. The best part about it is that as photosites get smaller, the aliasing you'd get from it would matter less (though it's basically the same for Bayer filters) while you could collect more light than a bigger photosite could. And I don't think foveon-like sensors are the way forward. Way too much complexity where it's hard to engineer it, which is why you end up with a sensor with about 4 MP on the current crop.

It seems to me like black silicon will be hard to implement inexpensively for mass-produced sensors. Backside illumination makes more sense but has less promise; I think at this point you take any little gains you can get where you can get them if they're easy to get.

I might also be wrong about that quantum dot treatment. It could make the Si more sensitive in some way. I'm skeptical because I don't understand it, but their silence could mean they're still trying to get the IP watertight or that they really don't know if it's going to work. We'll just have to wait and see.

I think what's certain is that digital cameras are going to keep improving. That's a Good Thing from where I'm at!

i think buying used just takes some patience. you have to wade through a lot of really messed up stuff, but ive scored some great deals on lenses that were essentially brand new. i just got an 18-200mm vr for 500 bucks after shipping and it came in mint condition. i also bought my 20mm off a professional photographer in the area that was also in great condition and havent any problems with it.

just be careful and ideally, make sure it has the box, packaging and warranty card, since with those things you can typically do exchanges through bigger chains like samy's... especially if you have friends. ;)

@ Jonnyapple- You may well be right on all points. But if you look at nikon's patent on the 3 refracted sensor under one micro lens. You can see that there is still room there. you basically have 4 times the area for each colour pixel. A fine harvest of photons to be gathers in that size.

Even if Quantum Dot is not real Black silicon sure is. and who know what else some innovative scientist is thinking up right this moment !! :-) sigh.. am I too much of an optimist?

As much as I like DX, hearty, I don't think your roadmap is realistic. I think that quantum dot idea is a pipe dream, hyped up to draw in investment. The biggest obstacle would be interface with readout electronics, but that's not to mention that I doubt they'll be able to get absorption like they're claiming. BSI is promising, but like Niko said it's not a silver bullet. We're already close to the physical detection limits with the D3s—you can't absorb photons that don't exist!

What's GFC and BSI? Do you mean a back illuminated sensor? I have one of those cameras and image quality is better than previous point & shoots but I wouldn't say it matches what comes out of a D700.

Why would they hold back DX if it's "better" than FX like you say? There are waay more FX lens owners than DX. So if they wanted to make DX "better" then that would certainly get everyone to "upgrade" their old Nikon glass to "better" DX lenses. But it's been 10 years and that never happened. The opposite happened and "everyone" praised the performance of FX as soon as it was introduced.

@ kanuck : You can use the 18-200 on your D700 :-) Just think of it as a 6MP DX camera.(seriously 5MP is quite usable)

Re: the 18 months time frame. Maybe I a bit optimistic about that, but I think the DX form at is being held back by the "powers that be" because they dont want the DX format to be better than their flagship FX cameras.(the GFC may also have played a part).

Have you seen the ISO 6400 and ISO 3200 from the BSI P&S ? They are almost as good as the APS-C sensors, but in the tiny P&S sensor. I would say it sure beats the D200 at ISO1600. http://www.pbase.com/middlehill/image/123498555. so If you can get a BSI P&S sensor why not a BSI APS-C sensor? Second generation BSI sensors have already been announced. I am hopeful that the expected nikon announcement will be a BSI DX sensor! And dont forget that in the pipeline is the Quantum Dot Technology which is due at the end of the year on a P&S near you! That will more than double again ISO sensitivity(about 4X theoretically). so expect high end P&S to outperform your D3 ISO and rival the D3S by the middle of next year.

Yes they are having trouble matching the ISO performance in DX compared to the FX sensor. I couldn't handy the noise of my D300 anymore. Serioulsy I kept asking myself is it me? These images are soft! Cable release, tripod, MUP, I tried everything. Heavy course grain in the darks in RAW with no saturation or vivid mode used. I was using like 60% in Noise ninja just to get back to basics! With the D700 its no problem at all. Heartyfisher that 18-200mm VR is a wonderful lens, if it were FX I'd be in 7th heaven. I miss it..

Yeah I don't get the 18 months bit. The current 12MP sensor has been around since the D300 came out, more than 18 months ago, and seen little improvement in high ISO.

heartyfisher said:
The only disadvantage the DX has against the FX is ISO performance within generations. But just wait 18 months or less and DX will at least catch up.

18 months? DX has been around for over 10 years and it has yet to "catch up" to FX image quality! And how is DX smaller and more agile than a 35mm camera? It sounds more like you are describing an EVIL type of camera like the Panasonic GH-1.

You must have been really angry when Nikon announced the D3 was moving up to full frame hearty :^(

I like the DX format. I dont mind waiting one generation of releases for the Dx format to catch up to the next level. eg I would like the ISO of D700 but I believe that the next release of the D300 level will have at least D700 level ISO performance. but much more features ie I believe DX format to be much more Agile than the FX formats and therefore more fun. The P&S are the most agile as can be see by the tons of gadgets and features, eg Face recognition, HDR, Built in bracketing. Focus Bracketing to get the effect of large aperture of FX, video, etc etc etc. even with the current generation DSLR you can see that the D90/D300S is better than the D700 in some key features eg DR, Video, Dust removal, Dual Card slots, etc. and I can only see that the trend will continue. The only disadvantage the DX has against the FX is ISO performance within generations. But just wait 18 months or less and DX will at least catch up. I believe there is even the chance of DX sensors performing better than FX as new technologies can be introduced sooner and cheaper in the smaller format. But its probably marketing that will hold that back. Just see how far the P&S have come. They are at 10MP with BSI sensor with better ISO performance than the 10MP D200. and a ton more features. What is really stopping Nikon from having a BSI DX camera 6 months ago?

Opps sorry about the rant.. lol .. is that what you were asking me?

heartyfisher said:
What I am really keen on is a 67mm filter, 45-160 F2.8 VR DX from Nikon! :-) LOL

Why not FX, hearty?

My FAv tele focal lengths is around 170 so I mainly use my 150 macro and crop a bit. I also have the 18-200 which is a fun lens. I also have a 1.4TC that I stick on my 150 macro for a bit longer reach. For long tele I have an old tamron 200-400 F5.6 which is actually quite good but not being VR sure needs a good tripod and technique which, I, most times find is too much trouble. Looking out for a long tele with good VR but no real hurry as I have what I need if I really need to go 400mm (I can even put the TC1.4 on that). May get the new 50-500 Sigma OS or the old 80-400VR some time if I can get a good deal some where.

What I am really keen on is a 67mm filter, 45-160 F2.8 VR DX from Nikon! :-) LOL

Yes the weight factor alone would be really great. I'm sure it would be a 67mm thread, not the greatest size but then again it might be a 58mm like my 28-80 G lens or my Zeiss ZF lens. That would be nice so I don't have to buy more filters!^^ Heartyfisher, what are you using for a tele right now?

I saw the canon 70-200 F4 in the shop the other day. Diminutive in comparison to the F2.8. Would be cool if nikon could get it into 52 mm filter !! but would be pretty happy with 67mm.

haha yes and according to Nikon rumors today, there might be a new line of F4 VR lenses from Nikon to compete against the F4 IS line Canon currently offers. This would create even more second hand 70-200mm VRs. I would seriously consider buying a F4 70-200 VR lens because the weight of the old pro 70-200 is an absolute killer I find...

@kanuck : So you can get travel discounts too! lucky @#$%&@# ! Korea sounds like a great place to visit.. and shop for second hand gear. That 1100 70-200 sounds like a great deal. May have to pay you a visit someday! :-)

PB PM good point it wise to buy new for the warrenty on a $1000+ lens. My situation obviously enables me to purchase second hand more easily. I came to Seoul in 2001 to teach english and have stayed on since. In 2004 I got a big break when I submitted some photos for travel magazine and now I am able to teach part time and make a living as a photographer here. I have purchased numerous things second hand here since 2001 and never had a problem, in some cases even traded back the lens for something else. If you can swing it, bite the bullet and just save up and buy new, unless you see a great deal in a shop and you can try it on your body.

Even the shop owners here in South Korea insist that for their hobby shooting, they only buy stuff second hand. I guess that means they get first dibs then. Two months ago my brother traded an older 21mm Zeiss distagon and his 5d for a used 5d mark II and he's been happy ever since. There is a lot of everything here especially 70-200mm VR I, 80-200 ED-D and 80-200 push pulls. Cheapest 70-200mm VR I went for $1100. Heartyfisher maybe a flight to South Korea for you? :)) The big district here is called Namdaemun and its in Seoul. Hongkong and Japan are great, but too expensive. London, and New York I find is 50/50 in terms of quality. Koreans love upgrading as soon as new items come out so its a smorgasbord for me especially on weekends it seems.

Skid, the first lens I bought was the 28-80 G lens for $75 used. It was intended for use on Nikon's last SLR bodies back in 1999-2001. So it works great on FX and weighs 200 grams! NSX Type R good call on the 24-70 its the logical choice for full frame but even used it would be well out of a budget of 1 grand. Even here they are extremely popular and in high demand so they remain expensive unless they have been beat on. For a grand budget, how about some very nice Nikkor primes? You have the 50 1.8, there is the fairly wide and fun 20mm D type, 28 AIS, 35 AIs, 105 macro, the 28-80 G I mentioned, and a very useful and nice FX lens the 70-300mm VR as well. Some of these are manual, but focus quick in the case of the 28mm. Believe it or not $1000 is plenty to make oneself happy!^^

If I am buying a pro grade lens ($1000+) I'll buy new every time, for the warranty, more than anything else. For other stuff, I don't mind getting used.

@ kanuck Can you get me one of those used 70-200 ? :-) wish we have good used camera stores in australia. They are so expensive used here. You can get grey stuff cheaper.

Skid said:
Kanuck-Thanks for the tips. Since you have a 700 as well, whats the best all around lens for this camera? Like I said I've been looking at the 85mm 1.4, but will entertain other ideas.I only have about a $1K to spend right now. Like to get another lens soon as the only other FX lens worth a S--T that I have is the 50mm 1.8. I do have a Quantaray 70-200mm 5.6 that is FX, but the lens is horrible.

24-70 2.8 maybe? It could be over your budget.