And then there are todays icons Coca-Cola and Levi jeans, they have been around forever. How come? Slap on some jeans made from genetically engineered cotton, grab an occasional coke filled with sugar with a ph 2.2... Ahh! one of todays few pleasures.
We all want more without loosing what we had. Its called " Upgrade Fatigue" Lets be honest, how many of us with the latest D800 are waiting for the D900 and yet were once very happy with the D300. What should come first, demand or supply?.. Plunk! Maybe we should get over this want and desire stuff. Imagine if manufacturers understood that what we want is not just more whistles and bells but also an increase in the quality of what they produce. I think it is called 'built in obsolescence' …
It kind of makes sense from a manufacturers point of view though not to put an effort into quality if you know all your customer wants in the new product is 'difference' and that your customer will be back in a year or so for more 'difference' once the novelty of the previous difference wears off. Upgrade fatigue is one of 'Apples' biggest dilemma's today and could very well be its demise. http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-08-07/finance/33066873_1_ipod-minis-apple-tv-ipad
I know raving here will make absolutely no difference as the demand for cheap Chinese copies of western goods becomes greater by the day. Todays mindset seems to me to be, solve todays issues and worry about tomorrows next year.
Thinking of you East coasters over the next 24 hours.

I'd be pretty pissed off about dust, I don't have the confidence to wet clean my sensor. Were you able to blow the dust off?

Check the D600 posts in NR forum - this one is not oil related . I don't own a D600 and luckily I haven't had the need to sensorclean my aging D300 in the last 3 years ( thought it does have 2 tiny spots ).

birdman said:
Every new product has flaws. Every single one of them. To cut costs and remain competitive, Nikon probably cuts a few corners -- at least on their *less-than-pro* products.

I know that about every new product has flaws but prior to recently it was expected of Canon and not Nikon. Nikon hasn't improved their service and additionally has been less inclined to acknowledge new flaws (Green screen?)

Paperman said:
:-) I had the dust on sensor issue in mind but now that you have mentioned ...

I'd be pretty pissed off about dust, I don't have the confidence to wet clean my sensor. Were you able to blow the dust off?

bjrichus said:
I just think that Nikon cameras ALL NIKON CAMERAS of the last five years are a bit like Microsoft software; Never buy version 1.0 of it. Wait for 1.1 or even 1.2 for all the bugs and kinks to get sorted out. Let someone else bump into them and work out the fixes using their time, money, and ulcer growths, not yours.

The question is, what is the equivalent of the iPhone disruptive product to upset a static Windows market?

That reasoning goes for all technology though...

I just think that Nikon cameras ALL NIKON CAMERAS of the last five years are a bit like Microsoft software; Never buy version 1.0 of it. Wait for 1.1 or even 1.2 for all the bugs and kinks to get sorted out. Let someone else bump into them and work out the fixes using their time, money, and ulcer growths, not yours.

The question is, what is the equivalent of the iPhone disruptive product to upset a static Windows market?

R8R said:
This, to me, is insane. 2 years?

Get used to it.

This is the way of technology gear in the 21st century.

Long product life spans for a camera is so 1980's...

The D5100 also had issues, but they were solvable with firmware.

I mentioned it a while back...actually after the D7000 came out that it seemed like there were more issues with the newer bodies.

Some of the stuff seems sloppy to me...stuff like memory cards not working and things that have to be solved with firmware. To me that is poor testing as they should have easily been caught before release.

I do think the frequency in which bodies are released has a role. Lenses still seem to be great, but the bodies are lacking.

Wait, what major flaw are you referring to on the D600? The HDMI issue or the oil issue?

:-) I had the dust on sensor issue in mind but now that you have mentioned ...

Paperman said:
D7000, D800 and now D600- all introduced with major flaws. What I can't understand is how come Nikon engineers don't realize these issues at production or QC stage ( after millions of clicks ) where as any user can see them after using a few days !

It can happen once, maybe twice but if it is happening three times in a row, Nikon really has to have a shake down & cut off some heads - starting from the top. They have definitely lost client respect/faith. I currently have no desire to buy any new Nikons and will cling on to my D300 for a while until I see a change in trend. Many Nikon owners will probably keep away from new models ; I doubt Nikon will see the usual pre-orders from now on.

Wait, what major flaw are you referring to on the D600? The HDMI issue or the oil issue?

The HDMI thing might be fixable in a firmware update.

For me it's not an issue of quality, it's an issue of products that we want that Nikon is too slow to introduce. A wide DX prime would be nice, something like a 20mm 2.8 would be very desirable. It's probably in the pipeline, but because of the natural disasters it's not helping.

D7000, D800 and now D600- all introduced with major flaws. What I can't understand is how come Nikon engineers don't realize these issues at production or QC stage ( after millions of clicks ) where as any user can see them after using a few days !

It can happen once, maybe twice but if it is happening three times in a row, Nikon really has to have a shake down & cut off some heads - starting from the top. They have definitely lost client respect/faith. I currently have no desire to buy any new Nikons and will cling on to my D300 for a while until I see a change in trend. Many Nikon owners will probably keep away from new models ; I doubt Nikon will see the usual pre-orders from now on.

At least there is'nt poisonous rubber on the handgrip. I do think with these issues coming to light, companies need to step up QC to make sure the probability of a defective product leaving the production line is kept in check. I rather pay more for a product which has been thoroughly tested rather than less for a product which I need to maintain myself every other day and send in every other week.

bjrichus said:
anyone spending significant amounts of personal cash (several thousand) on items that now have about a 2 year life span before being replaced needs that gear to work from day 1. If it takes 30 to 90 days to get it right, the product is already a substantial way through its life by the time it works.

This, to me, is insane. 2 years? For substantial video upgrades, maybe. Or if you bought the wrong camera in the first place, or are burning through shutters.

I just picked up a used D3 and in no way is it an obsolete camera. And that's a 2007 body. I would say the same for the D700, D300/s, etc. Are they at the top of the DXOmark charts? Not any more. Does (or should) that matter?

I would go as far as to say just about anything past the first generation Nikons is not yet obsolete. Maybe even farther back. Hell even my wife's D40 produces great files with enough good light.

As far as quality control, even the best companies have problems. All major manufacturers in most any industry these days depend on sub contractors, hundreds of parts vendors, etc etc. It's how they deal with the issues that separates the better companies.

As far as pre-ordering a camera as soon as it's announced - I wouldn't do that in a hundred years. I'd let the masses put the thing through the wringer, and then buy into it if it shakes out nicely. At least then you have some firmware upgrades to work with, and you know if there are any show stoppers that would ruin the camera for your particular needs.

It goes both ways, Nikon USA will not fix serial numbers from Canada either. This even applies to products under the 1 year international warranty. This is likely due to a deal between Nikon USA and Nikon Canada, to not steal each others business.

This isn't something I've heard, I've seen it happen. A guy came in with a USA serial number lens for repair, while I was waiting to pickup my camera from a cleaning, and he was turned away.

That seems strange PB, I would expect service from any Nikon repair centre I sent my camera to, it may be free from the area I bought the camera from and charged if elsewhere, but I would expect service.

bjrichus said:
So as far as spares go, ordering from Nikon Mexico might be more rewarding (as I am in a southern state)?

I don't know, I'm in Vancouver, so I deal locally with the Nikon Canada service center. I know Nikon Canada will not service anything with a Nikon USA serial number, whether Nikon's distributor in Mexico has the same rules or not, I don't know. As for ordering parts, you most likely could order them, but you might have to get a PO box in Mexico. I doubt they would ship to the US, since the distributors would have agreements not to ship into each others districts.

As for third party repair centers, I have no idea. I've never had to send any of my cameras in for a major repair (whether it be Nikon, Canon or Kodak).

I worked at Ritz Camera in college, approximately 10-11 years back. We carried lower-end Nikon products, and honestly the prices on certain low-end lenses have not gone up very much...nor has the quality gone down. For example, we carried the $100 28-80G (which there is no replacement now) and the 28-200G (original MSRP price escapes me at the moment). My point is this: these were kit lenses and built & priced as such. Even though they were pretty acceptable in IQ, you certainly wouldn't confuse these for the 28-70/2.8 that was around at that time. The best example I can give you is the 24-85/3.5-4.5 which is now replaced by the VR version. Brand new both were very close in price, and nearly identical in build quality. With the D600, there are reported oil spots on sensors or whatever. Maybe they rushed product to market a little too soon. As such a smaller company than Canon, these guys are working their asses off to meet demand. Every new product has flaws. Every single one of them. To cut costs and remain competitive, Nikon probably cuts a few corners -- at least on their *less-than-pro* products. Notice the Made in China/Thailand models as compared to the Made in Japan models? China factories generally manufacture the *less-than-pro* models, if you will. The 35/1.4G is made in Japan ($1,600 lens) , but the 35/1.8G ($200 lens) I owned was not. Canon OTOH has many, many flawed products as well. They had to redesign their 24-105VR when it first came out. They had light leak issues with the 5d3 ($3500 model), and so on....Once Nikon gets caught up with the outrageous demand for the D600 & D800 -- then I presume you'll see less and less issues. Ever see the movie Gung Ho with Michael Keaton? That's what happens when products are rushed out the door to meet demand.

I generally havent had too many issues with nikon repair even tho 3rice I've had stuff come back not fully repaired. They have idiots who work there. Part of the reason most companies do this is that they would rather sell you a new unit than repair the old one. It is the fundamental driving force of modern consumerism.companies make more profit off of wasting a perfectly good item with a minor repair than they would having loyal customers who never complain about their product.

In the case of nikon their product has been good enough that they maintain a good loyal base. however their quality does seem to be declining as well as their competitiveness on customer service and demand. I am convinced that Nikon could of done more to the D4/D800/and D600 at little to no cost more. They instead did just enough to slightly outperform canon. Sony and sometimes Nikon have unintentionally proven that the tech is more advanced than Nikon's flagship shows...

In addition Nikon has had a reputation for innovation, one that they have always held. They seem to be hyperfocused on matching canon for every stride or getting consumers to spend more. We used to see more wild patents from them, they used to do something that was thought to be impossible or too expensive... As of now they seem to merely be profit focused and like disney, that approach leaves the market open to a brighter company who in turn will run them over.

Hi all,

"Wouldn't it be cheaper to fix it before it left the factory than to get it back later to do it."

I would think so, but Nikon sees to think differently.

Agreeing with the general tone, it does seem like there's a disconnect in quality output, but, in the work spaces I've occupied long ago, the digital cameras are monstrously cheaper than their film body counterparts of 30 years ago.

It would be common to shoot between 200+ rolls per week per person, _much_ more when busy. Film, chemistry, paper, man hours, all of it, is far more expensive, _in toto_, than the camera. Doing away with that almost makes the cameras disposable by comparison. "Proofing" work as you go is tremendous as well.

Although that isn't an excuse for poor workmanship, it's tiny light at the end of the tunnel. ;-)

I don't know if I would be inclined to update as often as I do, if the technology of the sensor didn't refresh every 2-3 years.

Spraynpray probably has it right.

My best,

Mike

Even if Nikon paid inspectors $ 5/hr, which I doubt, the cost per camera would be minimal. How long would it take an inspector to fully test a camera, half an hour or so at the most. Wouldn't it be cheaper to fix it before it left the factory than to get it back later to do it. Besides, there's such a thing as customer satisfaction.

PB PM said:
Keep in mind some of those issues, like spare parts, are only an issue for those who have to deal with Nikon USA. Other national distributors have not stopped the sale of spare parts, and that order has not come from Nikon Japan.

So as far as spares go, ordering from Nikon Mexico might be more rewarding (as I am in a southern state)?

What about service and fixes? We used to do minor stuff (and still do) and if it needed a cover plate removed we sent them to Nikon. Last time we did that (even with NPS), it was a lengthy experience. As I have said, I dread it for my personal (non NPS) gear. Can other makers cameras be fixed by third party engineers - are THEY able to get parts (unlike from Nikon USA)?

Is there an opportunity for an "unofficial" service center to fix out of warranty gear and do the kind of thing that lens rentals did with regard to the "spots" with D600's?

earthsea said:
Where has the quality gone?.... I seem to be asking this question to myself often these days. Every time I buy a replacement product it just seems inferior to the previous one I bought.
I eat good whole grain toast for my breakfast and do you think I can find a toaster that wont burn the top of my toast and under cook the bottom half! I just spent $250 on a 4 slice toaster and it is $#!+, the solution is just so simple it's ridiculous, just put two knobs on it, one for the 'temp' and on for the 'timer' and graduate the elements as they resede downwards, hot air rises right?
It must be me, my demands are just to great, I must be caught up in the whole consumer thing where I expect the latest model to be better than the last. Did I say 'better'? maybe I mean 'offer more' and 'better' then again I don't believe man landed on the moon!
I love my Nikon (D800) and my gratitude goes out to all those involved in its creation, from the design team to the Guys who worked long hours in the factories to get it to me, so if all I have to do is clean a few oil spots off the sensor every now and then I really dont mind.
Dinner is served!

+1

Where has the quality gone?.... I seem to be asking this question to myself often these days. Every time I buy a replacement product it just seems inferior to the previous one I bought.
I eat good whole grain toast for my breakfast and do you think I can find a toaster that wont burn the top of my toast and under cook the bottom half! I just spent $250 on a 4 slice toaster and it is $#!+, the solution is just so simple it's ridiculous, just put two knobs on it, one for the 'temp' and on for the 'timer' and graduate the elements as they resede downwards, hot air rises right?
It must be me, my demands are just to great, I must be caught up in the whole consumer thing where I expect the latest model to be better than the last. Did I say 'better'? maybe I mean 'offer more' and 'better' then again I don't believe man landed on the moon!
I love my Nikon (D800) and my gratitude goes out to all those involved in its creation, from the design team to the Guys who worked long hours in the factories to get it to me, so if all I have to do is clean a few oil spots off the sensor every now and then I really dont mind.
Dinner is served!

It not only is but oddly canon has a reputation for quality they cannot live up to. Flaws in the D800 and the platickyness of the new 85mm 1.4 are only examples of the decline.

Keep in mind some of those issues, like spare parts, are only an issue for those who have to deal with Nikon USA. Other national distributors have not stopped the sale of spare parts, and that order has not come from Nikon Japan.

msmoto said:
This is of great concern.

[...]

Maybe when the D400 does arrive, some of us hot on the trail will actually wait, allow things to settle down and then purchase one a few months post introduction. And, hopefully there will be no problems of significance.

[...]

Nikon does have a very clear responsibility to handle customer service issues in an appropriate manner... We hope Nikon can make the changes necessary to restore the good customer care in the past.

Speaking as a private individual (my work is another matter), anyone spending significant amounts of personal cash (several thousand) on items that now have about a 2 year life span before being replaced needs that gear to work from day 1. If it takes 30 to 90 days to get it right, the product is already a substantial way through its life by the time it works. This is a sure way towards losing customers, so yes, it is a great concern...

I might well wait when the 400 does arrive ... let those poor desperate shmucks who MUST have it on day 1 suffer all the problems. Six weeks latter and no problems? THEN I may well go for it.

Customer service and Nikon right now are an oxymoron. Our (at work) NPS membership still gets shorter repair/service times, but now we have to send in a body for a minor parts and fixes (a lose screw accessible from the outside needs the entire body sent back? Are they kidding??), Thom Hogan is right to criticize them for this. Now that nobody will repair a Nikon SLR that needs a part ("can't get them from Nikon anymore, it has to go back") and as we are nowhere near NY, its a week or three without the body.

I dread my own cameras breaking as I'll go to the back of the line with everyone else as I am personally not an NPS member, that too will drive customers away next time they buy a camera.

Question is, are any of the other makers as bad on customer service? Can you get parts for the likes of Sony, Canon and so on and perform minor fixes yourself (again, looking at Thom H, the infamous battery door/cover) or do they too demand a "return to base" for trivial tasks?