hi

I've located a fine article by J Hildebrand on stand developing, here (excerpt from part II):

"The second, and more subtle benefit, which even people that have used stand development before sometimes fail to realize is this: it doesn’t matter AT ALL what film brand or speed you use. With normal developing if you’re shooting T-Max 100 there’s a specific developing time for each different developer, push it to 200 or 400 and it’s a different time again. You shoot with Tri-X 400 and it’s another different time, push that to 1600, different time again… you get the point. Now lets look at the developing times for Rodinal 1:100 using stand development:

T-Max 100 = 1 hour

T-Max pushed two stops = 1 hour

Fuji Neopan = 1 hour

Ilford HP5 = 1 hour

"Some mystery roll you found in a second hand camera = 1 hour

"I could go on, but you get the point. As far as I know there isn’t a black and white film that won’t give you a developed negative after an hour in 1:100 Rodinal."

for those interested, here's the link:

http://is.gd/0vBNun

Can't help you with that one as I mostly used the Ilford or Tetenal developers.

You might want to shoot one entire roll of film of the same subject, cut it into shorter pieces and try different dilutions with these parts. This way you can directly compare different development methods, dilutions or developers without being influenced by different subjects, light conditions etc. But it requires a bit of work...

Isnt that overkill? Iv'e done 1:7 and you practically get no grain on ASA 400 film...

hi y'all!

What has been your experience with stand developing, i.e., 1:100 dilution and let it stand--minimal agitation. I've heard good things about it--it sounds like it was meant for me!

Best,

Dean

Hi Dean, talking about teachers, have you considered learning the fundamentals from an actual teacher / instructor? Either a private teacher, or through your local college (e.g., continuing ed program), etc.? Or find a knowledgeable mentor?

That's how I got started, back in school. Our teacher started us with a pinhole camera (really). Then we were issued Pentax K1000s (all manual) and a ration of b&w film stock + paper. He gave us specific graded assignments each week, like experimenting with depth-of-field, or using the shutter to control motion, long exposures, etc. We developed our own prints, learned how to mount them, etc. (mostly in b&w at first, but later in color also).

I didn't fully appreciate what he was teaching us until many years later. I've met more than a few photographers who don't really "get" the basics.

I like D76 because it leaves a bit of room for error when used straight (believe me I know!)

Iv'e always preferred ilford films to other brands (except Agfa)... My favorite is Pan-f

I like to use HC-110 for my HP5, but it doesn't work great with every film. I really only use it for my HP5 and for everything else(fp4, PanF, Delta100,and more) I like to use D-76. It works well with lots of different kinds of films. D-76 might be the easiest, it is very user friendly. There are a lot of different kinds of developers too and it might be a good idea to do a search online to see what the different developers do to different types of film with how the affect contrast and grain. I don't shoot black and white to much anymore, mostly I shoot color and send it in to a lab to get taken care of. But when I do shoot and process my own those are the two I use depending on what film I shoot.

PPS: I will be shooting b & w almost exclusively. I just picked up a Plustek dedicated scanner with developing in mind. I have looked into it, corresponded with other pros regarding my own processing--i.e., I've done my homework-- and processing b & w is certainly not daunting. Using Diafine might require a bit more...finesse, regarding agitation, but other that that, I (like Niz) will shoot Ilford HP5 and the developer Ilford recommends (which developer do you use for the HP5, Niz?).

In sum: the learning process needs to be taylored (no pun intended) to each student (that is why small classes almost always work better than larger groups). That is, even though this one or that one learned with this method or that, does not mean that everyone after that must rigidly follow. This is to belabor the obvious...

This is how I happen to learn best--by picking the brains of pros--like you guys! (here and at other sites)--and then going out and pushing back the envelope, so to speak.

Best

D.

PS: the lens is a Nikkor 50mm/f1.8D

"Perhaps you need to start pressing the shutter release to learn"

Sincere thanks for sharing your considerable experience with me--and, no, no offense.

However, my sense of the natter is that it is not an either/or proposition but, rather, a both/and scenario.

That is, you are correct to note that personal experience counts for a lot, but learning from others--i.e., from their mistakes, their hard-earned wisdom/experience--counts for a great deal, too. For those who are generous enough to share said wisdom/experience, my gratitude goes out to them.

Said another way: we can learn from the experience of others when they take the time to share it with new learners--they are termed, "teachers". Thanks to Niz and Correlli! I will now add to what you've shared with my own experiments--and the road will be far quicker, and far more...GROOVY!

Dean

This seems to give an insight into the difference between digital and analogue photography regarding the mental lock that can occur with some shooters when they know that each shot (whether binned or framed) will cost them money when they click the shutter and so they must make every shot count and learn the maximum from it. If you were using a digital camera to learn with, you could click/display/learn much quicker (and cheaper) the basics then swap to film and enjoy the relevant differences between film and digital. You don't need a film camera to learn exposure and focus.

I learned the basics on a full manual analogue SLR and threw tons of shots away - I started off thinking I wanted at least 90% good shots from each reel and found that 10% was a way more realistic result for me! You may be a lot better than that, but you will still burn a lot of film learning.

Perhaps you need to start pressing the shutter release to learn - there are some super photographers on this forum, but you need to start amassing your own experience.

Of course, no offense intended.

DeanTaylor said:
Correlli, you noted that I might focus manually and still utilize AF. Do I take that to mean that I might start in AF and then double check the camera's focus--and, if I choose, make further adjustments? That is, if I establish AF I can override AF fairly easily--true? Please clarify.

That depends a lot on the type of lens you use. For AF Nikon has got two types of lenses AF-D and AF-S.

The F100 has got a build in motor that will drive the focus of AF-D lenses (you can see that little screw driver like thing sticking out from the lens mount). If you try to manually override that type of lens you can break things inside the camera. You either use AF or you put the camera on the M focus mode and focus manually.

With AF-S lenses the motor is inside the lens and these lenses offer a mode where you can manually override the focus without breaking everything.

Then there are Ai or AiS lenses. These are the older series that do not offer AF at all and you have to manually focus.

What I really meant was, that in case you want to use manual focus (for whatever reason) you can still use the AF areas to tell you if you are in focus.

The important thing is, that the camera cannot know on what part of the image you want to focus on. It has got a number of areas where it can measure the image sharpness and a few modes that tell the camera how to use these areas (e.g. single point etc). Have a look into the manual. It should tell you how these modes work and when they are used best. Your camera does offer AF so I would suggest you learn how to use it and where the limitations are.

DeanTaylor said:
There is both an 'M' for manual focus, as well as an 'M' for manual exposure--true? Niz, you suggested trusting the camera. What are your thoughts on the subject, Correlli?

I agree 100%. Those cameras are pretty smart computers and their light meter is quite advanced. I would trust the camera and learn about the limitations and when not to trust it. Also negative film is pretty forgiving, so even if you or the camera does not meter 100$ spot on you will most likely not see any difference. Slide film is a different story. I already said use AF and learn how to use it.

As for the exposure mode. P is some kind of fire-and-forget mode. Very handy for taking pictures of your kids, friends etc.

In A you pre-select the aperture (f-stop) to control the depth of field and the camera selects the correct exposure time. I use that mode a lot.

With S you select the exposure time and the camera will find the correct f-stop. This is good if you need control over e.g. how motion is captured (e.g. freeze or blur motion) and depth of field is not your primary concern.

With M you select both, f-stop and exposure time. My tip: learn how to use A and S first.

DeanTaylor said:
Regarding setting the ISO--I can 'push' or 'pull' process the negative if I choose a higher or lower ISO initially--the Exposure Index--true?

Yes, but you need to do that yourself. Push means that you expose the film on a higher ISO setting (you basically underexpose the film) and during development you try to compensate this by a longer development time. Pull is the opposite. I only did this with black and white film and you have to either develop it yourself or you need a very good lab that does not send the film into a bigger lab. I never heard of this being done with color film.

So if you are just starting with photography I have to agree with Tao: this is way ahead. You can get nice effects with push/pull processes but master the basics first.

DeanTaylor said:
My own position is that I got into this for full participation--when practical, i.e., I would like to take creative control if and when possible. Also, other pros suggested either getting an electronic meter or using a digital camera to check exposure. Can I not just 'trust' the F100's own system to take care of metering (as Niz remarked)?

Taking creative control is a very good goal. But do one step at a time. If you do too many things at the same time (e.g. M exposure mode, hand-held meter, push process the film) and something goes wrong you most likely end up not knowing where you made the mistake.

I would suggest you start taking pictures in P, A and S mode using your AF. Play around with the different modes (both exposure and AF). Take notes so you can later see what you did. Have a look into books about the basics of photography (metering/exposure, image composition etc). Have a look at other photos (the Photo a Day thread here is an excellent start!).

DeanTaylor said:
I'm sure other questions will come up but I'll pause here...

Please do so...

Hope this helps

Hey Dean, with pushing and pulling you can do that with different films to get a lot of different looks. I haven't played with it to much, but have a lot of friends that will shoot a 400 speed film at 320 speed and then process it longer to get more contrast. I like to shoot HP5(which is a 400speed film) and push it to 800 and every now and then 1600 for night work. I would read a couple different sites from google searches to get a good idea of what films push or pull well. Some push great but when you pull them they look like crap.

Also with the meter in camera, they are pretty great and right most of the time. You will learn when you need to take extra readings and when you can trust the camera the more you shoot. When I'm in the studio I meter everything twice and test with digital before I shoot the film. When I'm out in the street or covering an event I just trust the camera and know what meter mode I need to use depending on the time of day and what that light is looking like. The more you shoot the more you will see how the light will trick the meter or the meter will work just fine.

With the AF lens, some let you do manual over ride on the focus and some you have to switch the lens or camera to manual focus to manual focus them. If you have G lenses you should be fine with Manual over ride in the focus. You said you have a 50mm 1.8, is it the D or the G? The G should let you over ride the focus, but the D wont let you.

TaoTeJared

Sincere thanks for talking the time to reply.

!) You made your point.
2) Do you mind if I disagree with you?

Please let someone else respond to my inquiry. I will decide when I am getting "way, way, way, way..." etc., ahead of myself, not you. I do not need someone to show me to the door...

What I was hoping to find here is not only someone who is a proficient photographer but someone who actually knows how to convey ideas to others. Those happen to be two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT skill sets.

Correlli was doing a great job helping me. Please leave him be.

Best

Dean

Do you have an AF or manual lens? That is the first question we need answered.
2nd - do you shoot with a DSLR or have any prior camera experience?
3rd - are you going to try to develop the film yourself?

DeanTaylor said:
Correlli, you noted that I might focus manually and still utilize AF. Do I take that to mean that I might start in AF and then double check the camera's focus--and, if I choose, make further adjustments? That is, if I establish AF I can override AF fairly easily--true? Please clarify.
also...

AF will be 100 times better unless you are an eagle. I wouldn't bother with manual unless you actually want to manually focus. Focus on learning the camera and taking a photograph first.

DeanTaylor said:
There is both an 'M' for manual focus, as well as an 'M' for manual exposure--true? Niz, you suggested trusting the camera. What are your thoughts on the subject, Correlli?

Yes there is manual focusing and a setting for manual exposing the image. The camera will expose properly 90-99% of the time for the setting (matrix, spot, center). Starting out, stick with matrix and once your learn more then you can utilize center and spot.

DeanTaylor said:
Regarding setting the ISO--I can 'push' or 'pull' process the negative if I choose a higher or lower ISO initially--the Exposure Index--true?

My own position is that I got into this for full participation--when practical, i.e., I would like to take creative control if and when possible. Also, other pros suggested either getting an electronic meter or using a digital camera to check exposure. Can I not just 'trust' the F100's own system to take care of metering (as Niz remarked)?

As for the rest of this since you haven't used film before, you are getting way ahead of yourself - like way, way, way ahead. Handheld meters...I only use mine for studio strobes and rely on the camera the rest of the time. My FE2 is probably 15 years older than your F100 and it meters the image right every time. Meters are helpful once you learn more.

Just shoot on program mode (if you have an AF lens - A (aperture) if it is manual) and get use to the camera and film. You need to learn and play with the camera a lot before you can actually control "creative control" - starting out they are usually just happy mistakes. It has taken most of us 1000s upon 1000s of exposures of experience before beginning to get to a point of understanding what we need to do to create what we have in our mind on a camera.

It takes time, experience and a lot of learning. If you want a good beginners book that covers everything look to any by Tom Ang.

Thank you both for taking the time to share your expertise.

A few points:

Correlli, you noted that I might focus manually and still utilize AF. Do I take that to mean that I might start in AF and then double check the camera's focus--and, if I choose, make further adjustments? That is, if I establish AF I can override AF fairly easily--true? Please clarify.
also...

There is both an 'M' for manual focus, as well as an 'M' for manual exposure--true? Niz, you suggested trusting the camera. What are your thoughts on the subject, Correlli?

Regarding setting the ISO--I can 'push' or 'pull' process the negative if I choose a higher or lower ISO initially--the Exposure Index--true?

My own position is that I got into this for full participation--when practical, i.e., I would like to take creative control if and when possible. Also, other pros suggested either getting an electronic meter or using a digital camera to check exposure. Can I not just 'trust' the F100's own system to take care of metering (as Niz remarked)?

I'm sure other questions will come up but I'll pause here...

Dean Taylor

First of all: welcome to the forum.

You are right, a camera manual does not tell you anything about the basic principles of photography. But there are many good books about that subject. I heard that "Understanding exposure" by Brian Peterson is good, but I did not read it.

Unlike a digital camera - where you can choose what ISO you want - you need to set the camera to the ISO speed of the film you use. There is also a setting where the camera automatically selects the correct speed by reading the metal bar code like part on the film cartridge.

If you focus manually you can still use the AF points of the camera to help you. Please refer to the manual for this. Or you can simply look through the viewfinder and decide yourself if the image is in focus.

If you want the camera to do the metering for you, you can select the P mode. Depending on the brightness of the scene the camera will select an f-stop and shutter speed. If you want more control about the depth of field (if you have not heard this term or if you are unsure what it means: again I would recommend a book on the basics of photography) you should select the A-mode. Here you select the aperture and the camera will determine the shutter speed for you.

When you start it might be a good idea to take notes about what you did for what picture (what settings you used). This way you can better learn from mistakes you will make. Play around with different settings and have a look at the results.

As for the books: I do like Amazon or other online bookstores but in this case I would recommend to go to a good bookstore where you can ask people what books they would recommend to you (maybe some people here can give recommendations as well).

Hope this helps.

The ISO speed should be set to the same as the film speed. The film speed will be on the roll of film, depending on the camera settings it might set the film speed automatic or you might have to do it yourself. You should check your manual about that. I know with my F5 I have it set to read the film and set it for me, but I always double check to make sure it is right. The next think you want to do is set up your shot and meter it. If you don't have a light meter use the one in the camera. Also check your manual and read about the different shooting modes, M, P, A, and S. One might be better for the way you shoot. I shoot in M when in the studio, but out in the street and location I go in A and trust the camera. Hope that helps.

hello--

I am a newcomer to 35mm film, and this would be the very first shot with the F100. Having loaded the film I would like to shoot a test shot. Please share your protocol before the shot for:

1) setting the focus mode--here, I would use 'manual'
2) setting the f stop
3) setting the iris speed
4) setting the ISO speed

The set up:

A well lit room in the middle of the day. Subject: a flower in a vase five feet from me. I have tripod and remote shutter release. F100 with 50mm/1.8 lens.

How, then, do I establish the various settings before releasing the shutter--i.e., it's done electronically, but what are the steps/what actions do I take to program the F100 for the shot?

Much appreciation for getting me started...

A clarification: I am new to 35mm film as well as having no experience with digital photography. My question has to do with learning the basic initial protocol for setting up the shot. I have the manual but would welcome any and all responses for further details (the manual is fine but not what I would term 'comprehensive') regarding what I would like to know.

Any and all helpful answers to my original inquiry are gratefully received!

Dean Taylor