I maintain a website for my retail picture framing store. I started out scanning slides from my F4. Then to speed things up I got by 1st digital camera. I bought a Nikon D2h. Even though I have better cameras today, I still use the D2h for images to be used on the website. It was a great sensor, is fast and accurate. It can be bought used in the 300-400 dollar range. It was used to photograph all the framing samples, using an old 28mm f2.8 AIs lens, without distortion.

For reference the site address is <link removed> FYI, I do not take orders off the Internet. My store is retail walk in only. I use the website to allow local clients to get an idea before coming in.

framer

Mike Gunter said:

We should start another topic about what it takes to become a professional photographer right now and the work environment. I think for a single person to universally do well is tough. It's going to take a team.

Hi Hon, Please remember my birthday was in '42....

You have said so much, Mike, but I cannot agree with you more. For an individual to produce a good result as a professional photographer in the commercial arena requires not only a team but a very strong support of the "team" approach. IMO the photographer is one of the team leaders. The art director is another and the client the third member. Once the decision is made as to what the final product should look like, then it is art director, studio manager, photographer. During the shoot the photographer is primary discussing the ongoing results with the art director. After the shoot, the art director and photographer are together again and finally the art director receives the final product. The production team sometimes is as large as ten people all working together. Sometimes larger but usually about five folks are involved plus the model director/make-up folks.

I suppose the point I am attempting to make is that a simple photograph may look very simple in the end, and most of the time this is exactly what one wants, yet the work involved is huge. And, the critical factor is how the team is set up. I think the great photographers are the ones who display profound human compassion yet are not afraid to be very assertive.

Hi all,

@Moby There should have been a subtext in my comments that went something like, 'you're asking us to help you take away a piece of our living - go soak your head!'

Not to be taken too seriously, BTW, but nonetheless...

I believe that the photography market is changing faster than we can understand it (the change). I'm visiting a daughter in Denver and last night got into a long, long discussion with a recent graduate of a college with a degree in photography about a lot of issues. I think she could wrap her head around the fact that my career was older than her parents and I knew a few of the people that she brought up. (Which only proves I'm on Social Security and waitresses call me 'Hon'.)

We discussed paths to doing great work - education or experience and seemed to agree that either will work, but the time for either isn't overnight, or a fortnight, a month, or a year. It takes a few years to really get it right. It's a commitment.

To me one needs to decide what kind of work they want to do and do it well.

You're a great web designer now and apparently, you want to add some photography that will be 'whatever' to that mix. Doesn't really sound like a solid business plan to producing terrific designs for everything.

You can become a terrific photographer - shoot a lot, take a lot of classes, get a mentor who will generously devote his/her time to you, and it really won't matter what gear you have - you'll do good work.

But the point is, your web design will suffer for it.

We should start another topic about what it takes to become a professional photographer right now and the work environment. I think for a single person to universally do well is tough. It's going to take a team.

More on that,

My best,

Mike

I like the negative and positive comments here. There are some good thoughts.

I'd suggest a D90 and an off-brand normal zoom (sigma or tamron 17-50), a 50 1.8G, SB-700. If you still want to spend a bit more, some good studio lights and cheap radio triggers—maybe paul c buff alien bees. They are an awesome company to work with even if you might not like their website. ;-) Check out the packages like the beginner bee under the help center mouse-over menu. Good luck. Maybe you'll decide you like photography better than web design.

Moby,

My advice to you first of all is: See what kinds of actual images your clients like.
You've stated that you often outsource the photography, so I believe you have access to the images that the contractors have photographed? If so, is it more wide angle (everything in it)? Is it more up close and detail? Is it more taken during the day or later on at night? Is most of it still life or people?

Often times, there is a disconnect between what photographers think clients want vs what the client actually wants. Once you figure out what the clients want, then you can start deciding on what equipment to use.

I believe that I'm in a similar camp as you. I photograph businesses, people, food, interiors, products, etc. Most of my stuff is for the web also. For me, I've been able to take care of all my clients needs using only 3 basic items, a D90, a 17-55mm 2.8 (interiors and environmental shots), and a 50mm 1.4 (close ups and portraits). Nothing fancy, and a lot closer to your budget range than the other ideas on this thread. For what I photograph, I do not need to have a lot of different lenses or a full frame camera, as I'm able to make do with available light, and my zoom lens gives me the flexibility I need for different focal lengths. And for headshots, I often use window light as opposed to the harshness of strobes/flashes. In the end, it's about fulfilling what your clients want, and making sure to keep things simple; as having more often detracts you from your main purpose which is to take photographs.

Moby I think I get what you are trying to do - which is the same as some the business I have been focused on - Cheap, Quick, Good Enough.

Pick any new DX body (it really doesn't matter all that much if your focus is WEB.) The newest one's will give you the best latitude for editing though. Forget about not needing 24MPs - they are what they are. It is what comes with it that makes the difference and for that, the MP will be 24.
Nikkor or Tokina 12-24mm for interiors and large group photos.
35mm 1.8g & 50mm 1.8g for portraits.
Two - three strobes/flashes (sb-700 or 910s)
Add a few soft boxes for the flashes, cheap lighting stands (that go to 7ft), and a couple of books on lighting techniques on "business portraits" pick 1 style for lighting, learn it, and just do that one.
In all, you are going to should expect to spend about $3,000-$4,000 to get started from scratch. You will be able to use that set-up for 3-4 years and most of it for much longer.

I'm assuming you have a great handle on Photoshop so that will get you the rest of the way there with a bit of a learning curve.

I do agree with what others have said above, but business still are scrambling for money and most are bewildered by $500-1,000+ price tags for shoots that take less than 2 hours. I charge really low and am picking up business so there is a market for it as most pros just don't see the value in it. I look at it as, is 3 hours of my time worth not getting paid or getting paid?

Reality is, if it is only small web files, much of our understanding of photography is unfortunately lost in the end-use. Basic Head-shots are relatively easy with a bit of practice. Interiors can be very difficult but if it is just a "documentary style" where color, textures, etc. are not important, then that is easy as well with practice.

I do find it disheartening that people do not want to pay for the "pro" and don't understand what comes with it, but at the end of the day it is about managing expectations on both ends. Sometimes the end customer's expectation is do it for very cheap cost, and the result is what it is. They understand it will not be as good, and they fully accept it. I have worked for many companies that viewed it that way and said (in back rooms) "to hell with what the professional thinks we need." No salesmanship will get past that. On things they deemed it mattered, they had no hesitation to spend the money for the best result.

oh and @mike

yep, you read me correctly.

about the education dept, ya, it's said. in my business and judging from the few designers I met, the self educated ones who spend endless nights in the basement at their crappy old home PC are lightyears ahead of the just graduated college kids with shiny certificates. and I know people in my business who do employ and all they wanna see is a sample of what you can do - not your grades or name of your college - might be a different story in your industry and of course for larger firms who do value credentials more than talent

@heartyfisher
@sevencrossing

cheers guys, that the kind of inspiration I was looking for.
the argument to keep it as a family camera if things go south also makes total sense to me ;)

I also totally get it that pros look at things differently - it's the same for me. Sometimes people around my area proudly show me their new small business website done either by themselves or by "the son of their neighbor who knows stuff about internet".
I usually feel like throwing up immediately when I finally take a look at their pages to state my opinion or feel the urge to break into crazy laughter as if I just uncovered a sick joke but to my surprise - again and again - people are pretty happy with their crappy sites and you're better off keeping that knowledge respectfully to yourself. I guess they just don't see the same what I see when looking at a page. Maybe pros simply tend to be overly critical with their own standards and their desire to strive for perfection. so what I'm trying to say is that the majority of people probably won't notice a difference when looking at a 300x300 px web compressed jpg picture - at least that's what I'm counting on (XXXXX evil laughter added)

p.s.: and to the guy who mentioned if we make a fortune - ehhh, nope. since you don't know me and I have no intention to reveal my identity in a forum I can give you an honest figure, think around 2k a month profit and thats for 3 completed sites worked on 6 days a week. I could do 10 a month if I take "the son of my neighbor" as a standard but then I would never be happy again and feel ashamed every time my competitors look at my code (because that's what designers do a lot - look at each others code trying to figure where you stand with your stuff). I know that in a 50 mile radius there is one single guy who is way ahead of me and every time he releases a new site I secretly admire his wits & creativity (lucky me he will never know, hehe). The rest just copy/paste with mostly zero own ideas. What hurts in the end is that these copycats make more in the end since the average joe on the road just doesn't give a damn. I guess that's the price you pay when you're in love with what you do. the only ones who could really value what you do are people in the same business and these folks hardly come around to compliment you. if you could identify with my story so far as a photographer here's where our paths have to part -you know in 2 years from now all your current work is not worth a penny anymore - not even worth to be included in your own portfolio.

So I guess being a photographer is more healthy for your soul in the long run....

ups, I guess I feel a bit chatty tonight :)

heartyfisher said:

get a D3200 and an 16-85 and a flash.

....
Good luck!

At the end of the day you will not have spent too much and will end up with a neat littel camera for family photos

What's with all these naysayers! Just jump in, how hard can it be !!

get a D3200 and an 16-85 and a flash.

1) Portraits of employees with bokeh .. use the 16-85 at 85mm
2) at 16 mm you can get in fairly tight spaces.. not as good as a 10-24 but its a compromise.. and if you find you do need it later you can grab one.
3) depending on the product a corner of a room usually does a good job.

and learn how to bounce flash..

At the worst you get a nice camera gear for a smallish investment and you may find you like photography :-)
Of course this will only get you started .. then there is all the other stuff the previous posters mentioned ;-) LOL bwahahaha (evil laugh!)

Good luck!

Hi Moby,

"thanks guys - hmm, not really encouraging so far"

They have been quite encouraging. Pro level work requires more than a point and shoot for sales products and a lot of experience to do it right.

"just to clarify, I'm not after pro quality at all"

And that is exactly what you'll get, if I read your level of experience and budget right.

"but now I'm not so sure anymore about stepping up in time since this whole photography thing seems to be more complicated than I thought and I don't have the time to really get into it with true devotion"

Remember that the world doesn't need or want a half-baked anything, to include photographer, writer, designer, or whatever. I have a young friend who graduated from Brooks Institute and is nursing a 6-figure education debt. She's terrific at design and photography with a very professional Canon system.

She's hard pressed to get work in a major west coast city.

@Ironheart

I suspect you are giving Moby some advice for self awareness, starting with renting and no education or training. That awareness gained will be less expensive and not as punitive as going a wrong direction.

Something to think about - How much time does Moby need to become proficient in photography? I've been at for over fifty years and am still learning.

Good luck and my best,

Mike

I am guessing you are not an experienced photographer with at least 100,000 clicks on the camera. And, the question of doing this yourself is like being your own plumber.....or doctor....

To do a good job at photography requires a long period of apprenticeship, and a lot of practice. If you are selling a quality product, then DIY photography will destroy your image.

You will find you get out of the photograph exactly what you put into it.

Before buying anything, why not rent? Your local pro photo shop will be happy to rent you a body, some lenses, and lights for a fraction of the purchase price. Take the gear to a "friendly" customer or find some willing friends/family and try your portrait skills. Then shoot some "tight" spaces and some "product" shots. I'm using quotes here because all of this should be done as practice when you aren't under the gun for time or money.

When you are all done, sit down and compare your efforts with the last set of professional shots and try to be really honest with yourself (or get your most objective/cynical friend) as to where you stand. Perhaps you are a natural and everything will look awesome. Or it might be awful, or somewhere in between. The amount of time, effort, and $$ to get from mediocre to reasonably good is usually measured in years, tears, and several $1K increments.

I think your idea of starting small is good. For what you are doing, the camera is almost secondary. You need lights, lenses, and backdrops as well as software to make this happen. Perhaps offer to assist the next photog you hire to get a feel for it. Just some random thoughts...

IMHO (and in spite of owning one myself), forget the D7000 get a low click D700. You said Bokeh, so you need FX and the cheapest FX is a used D700. Good Bokeh also means fast glass, but maybe you could start with a little 50mm f1.8 which are as cheap as chips (fries). Problem is, we've spent your budget and you haven't even got enough of the right lenses - 85mm f1.8 should be next, then you'll need a 105VR micro for small product shots - we just passed $2.5k getting onto $3k and still no superwide for those tight spaces - Oh, yeah lights: You could start with cheap stuff here, but that money would be wasted as you would need to buy better stuff.

So, double your budget so far (and that is being careful), you haven't got any lights and you don't know what to do with any of the gear you bought.

Forget it moby and keep paying a good pro so you can earn enough money to buy good gear, spend a couple of years learning about it all as an amateur with no pressure and then you can start to do your own. Perhaps.

Don't you website guys earn a fortune? Pro photogs don't cost that much, just itemize it separately to the clients so they don't think you're being greedy.

thanks guys - hmm, not really encouraging so far

just to clarify, I'm not after pro quality at all
my intention was to jump in on the small business projects since here the outsourced photo gig is eating a large portion of my profits and eventually (I'm thinking baby steps here) take over larger projects with more experience

but now I'm not so sure anymore about stepping up in time since this whole photography thing seems to be more complicated than I thought and I don't have the time to really get into it with true devotion

so I'll probably only go for the really small gigs and go with an affordable amateur set.

I like the D7000 recommendation doe

for 1k You can buy good lights, nothing more. forget about doing it yourself, unless You are able to spend around 5-7k and take a lot of practice.

moby said:
I was hoping to get some advice from you experienced guys in here

Hi Moby

don't take this the wrong way
but rather than doing it your self why not use an experienced photographer
I don't think you are not going get everything you need, for a quality product, on your budget

If you do it yourself

DSLR D7000

Portraits Nikkor 85mm f1.8G

Product photos for brochures - AF-S 60mm f/2.8G ED Micro NIKKOR lens

indoor shots of (sometimes tight) office spaces - Nikkor 10-24mm
( or the Tokina 11-16mm DX/1.6x/APS Ultrawide)

You will also need :

2 or 3 SB 700s or SB 910 and some light modifiers and light stands

A decent tripod

A few years experience, ( this really is quite helpful)

As a web designer by trade, you will know a good photography is an essential for any web site

Hi guys!

I'm a web designer by trade with very little experience in photography. I plan to stop outsourcing photography for my gigs and start doing it myself.

I was hoping to get some advice from you experienced guys in here since I'm not sure what to get. My requirements are as follows:

- employee portraits (incl. bokeh)
- lots of indoor shots of (sometimes tight) office spaces
- product photos for brochures

I don't need to inflate my photos to poster size so mb count doesn't matter that much. I also don't need lots of fps and quick pro button layout since every shot will be well prepared. I already have a decent camcorder so I don't care about the cameras video capabilities.

My question is if I should go for a DSLR setup at all or think more about a compact system like Nikon 1 or similiar. Like I said I'm pretty clueless and appreaciate any input from you guys.

Not to forget my budget. I was thinking in the 1 - 1.5k range.

thanks for reading
moby