You might check out stevehuffphoto dot com. He does "real world" reviews of all the M4/3, ILC compact bodies along with Leica M9 for his paid work. There are quite a few who are actually going for the J1/V1 just for pure ease of use, ram-around camera. That kind of blew me away for may shooting M9s over there. It's pretty amazing what he and other photographers pull out of those cameras.

@jonnyapple.... thank you. It may be, as I said, a body I will purchase as my carry around, being able to hide it in my purse (right next to the kitchen sink, LOL). As to the "not for motorsports" if the focus capabilities through the electronic viewfinder are good, this would be something like in the old days when we always followed the car with the focus ring. And, the brain is pretty good at this once diligent practice is completed.

But, it depends on the D400 and its ISO rating. And maybe on whether I sell a house...ha, ha, ha....

Seriously, what is the sensor like at say....5,000 - 10,000 ISO?

Msmoto, that Zeiss lens is probably the only one for the NEX line that will do the 24 MP sensor justice (full disclosure: I have only read reviews of the zeiss 24 and the NEX-7).

I own the NEX-5N and can tell a difference in sharpness between the kit lens and, say, attaching my f-mount tamron 17-50 2.8 (almost fair comparison) or my nikkor 50 1.8 (not really fair) with an f-mount to e-mount adapter. I'm looking forward to the pro-quality standard zoom they've been talking about since last fall.

The 5N comes highly recommended by me. Sony should pay me something for how many family members/friends I've convinced to buy one. I got it for the video, but it's no slouch for stills if you've got time to nail the focus (for you, just read this as "not for motorsports!"). I can't tell a difference between that sensor and the one in the D7000. For me, the important milestone that sony and Nikon hit with that sensor is that I get acceptable ISO 1600 shots of things like birthday cakes and family gatherings in indoor lighting with no flash. It's nice to not be such a nerd. ;-)

It is easy to see how with a Zeiss lens, the cost of the NEX 7 becomes about $2400 USD. With one lens...a 24mm f/1.8 Zeiss Prime. But, the sensor specs look good and it really seems to have the potential for as outstanding camera, not really a pocket model, but a camera one can easily keep in a purse (Mine looks like a camera backpack, sorry) slide under the coat or such. While the DSLRs tend to be way too bulky.

Anyway, thanks for the input, so far...and if "knee-con" does not come up with a D400 in September....I will see what is available in the mirror less, like the NEX 7.

I was messing about with a couple of M4/3 cameras a couple of weeks ago. Once you put a zoom on them, they are anything OTHER than "compact" (but you knew that).

Looking at the IQ out of most of them, my old trusty backup D3000 is a good match. In my view and if IQ is your #1 priority for anyone on a tight budget (not Mrs M, I am sure), or unless you really do need a non SLR type of body, I'd say you'd get better results out of a D3200 or a bargain D3100 than an M4/3.

Interestingly the D3000 and until this week, even the D3100 bodies and kits all seem to be on some kind of special offer or dare I say "clearance" right now (oops, should not have used the "clearance" word, but there you go). Not long now before more rumors?

Whatever.....

The Xpro1 seemed bigger and feel more "chunky" in the hand than the Sony to me, not that the Sony is small or toy like (see my remarks above about how big things get with a telephoto zoom lens on), but the Fuji was just a little bit "more"... Maybe I just prefer the more traditional shape and proportions?

OK, relighting this thread so if any folks have had experience with this Sony NEX 7, good or bad, it would be nice to hear from them now. My trusty Olympus 1030SW has become more work to shoot than it is worth, and I need (want) another sort of point and shoot, but also want big format image quality.

So...let's hear from the SONY NEX 7 folks, please....

I've been playing around with my new NEX-5N and it's a fun little camera. I already loved the nex-5, so the main additions are the better sensor, video, and improvements to the interface now it has a touch screen (touch the screen to focus on any part of the image even while recording video? genius. I've been waiting for this feature. Also, on image review, you tap to zoom in on any part of the picture. Also genius. I keep trying to use multitouch commands a la ipad, though!). The only really negative part to the upgrade is that I'll have to wait for lightroom support of the raw files. :-(

Here are a couple of sample videos from it. The first is at their new PS quality setting (60p 1080, 28 Mbps) and the other is at 24p 1080, 24 Mbps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4YB3fMCZNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AVOiaf8eA4

Please don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the Japanese. They are a very successful society and make great products. However as a whole, with few exceptions Fuji being one, they are not known to target specific markets rather make products for mass appeal. In-itself not a bad thing.

Everyone needs to get off the Japanese - geesh. They are certainly not a one dimensional society. Fujifilm is Japanese and they have always made cameras that are made for focused groups. Probably why they have always had success. Look at all of the MF rangefinder lines they have had. Pentax comes and goes with those as well.

Vertical marketing was exactly what I was thinking of just left the term out. I think anymore that is what works in the world today.

aslightdelay said:

TTJ: You're definitely onto, and not on, something. The problem with anything -- whether it's a camera, a television, or even a stock pot -- that tries to be everybody's everything is that you're doomed to failure before you've even started. When you start thinking along those lines, you have to look at averages (what's the average person going to want/need, and what will they be willing to pay for it) and you end up with a product that's... well, average as a result, if it even manages to be that good. What's encouraging about the Fuji X series (at least to me; maybe I'm misinterpreting what they're trying to do) is that it seems to be thought out more like an SLR line than a point-and-shoot line, with clearly defined products that are meant for something, and/or someone, specific, as opposed to someone buying a Coolpix because they'd budgeted $150, and while they're not sure what all those thingies do, the camera just happened to cost 150 bucks.

JA, adamz: I like the image quality of the NEX cameras, but they feel awkward in my hands. Maybe that's just me...

What TaoTeJared touched on is what marketing people call vertical marketing. You take a defined group of people, design a product, and market the hell out of it within that group. It proves to highly profitable as people are willing to pay more for a product they feel was designed just for them, and, more importantly builds strong loyalty. To everyone else, that product maybe average, but to its audience it would be the best camera on the planet.

The Japanese understand marketing to the masses, not to a defined group. That's probably the reason Canon chose not to buy Hasselblad. They just did not understand how to make money selling cameras to such a small market.

TaoTeJared said:
Until then, I'm just going to put DSLRs with mirrors in a category called "Flap-Jacks" and Mirror-less in a category called "Bacon".

I looove bacon.

adamz said:
...after PP I don't see too much differences between pictures taken with d3s and NEX.

Thank you for writing this (even if it isn't really true), Adamz. I need these reminders sometimes.

Fair enough about the handling, ASD. Everyone has their opinion but I love the way the nex-5 feels in your hand for normal shots and for hip-shot video (I have obviously not tried the nex-7 but the nex-3 seemed flimsy and lacking any really good way to hold it).

I think the Nikon's dead in the water, as well. pabnj, apt comparison on audiophile equipment. I read somewhere recently -- may have been Thom Hogan's blog -- something very similar, that especially in the P&S/compact category, companies keep pumping out new iterations with very minor changes (and really, do we need more scene modes?) in order to keep product moving. Of course, they may be on to something: look at all the whining that happens when someone doesn't put a 36MP full frame sensor in a D7000-sized body at a D3100 price. ;)

TTJ: You're definitely onto, and not on, something. The problem with anything -- whether it's a camera, a television, or even a stock pot -- that tries to be everybody's everything is that you're doomed to failure before you've even started. When you start thinking along those lines, you have to look at averages (what's the average person going to want/need, and what will they be willing to pay for it) and you end up with a product that's... well, average as a result, if it even manages to be that good. What's encouraging about the Fuji X series (at least to me; maybe I'm misinterpreting what they're trying to do) is that it seems to be thought out more like an SLR line than a point-and-shoot line, with clearly defined products that are meant for something, and/or someone, specific, as opposed to someone buying a Coolpix because they'd budgeted $150, and while they're not sure what all those thingies do, the camera just happened to cost 150 bucks.

JA, adamz: I like the image quality of the NEX cameras, but they feel awkward in my hands. Maybe that's just me...

X whizbangs - I think I just found my favorite phrase for the next week.

I agree with Adamz - I don't like the "mirror-less" tag for models. I really can't stand calling them ILCs (interchangeable lens compacts) either but that is closer to what they should be called. The Sony and Samsung performance (and sensor size) are middle to top DSLR territory and I have a hard time comparing them in the same category as the Pentax or Nikon design. I have a feeling we will have this conundrum for the next couple of years until some of these shake out.

Until then, I'm just going to put DSLRs with mirrors in a category called "Flap-Jacks" and Mirror-less in a category called "Bacon".

IMHO, we shouldn't distinguish between mirror and mirror less as sooner than later we will see the mirror less construction in dslr's. As for the quality of pictures, as TTJ wrote, up to 400iso IQ is almost indistinguishable. Two weeks ago I was shooting my wife's friend wedding, I took my NEX-5, and... after PP I don't see too much differences between pictures taken with d3s and NEX.

+1, pabnj. TTJ, those are great ideas. You have to think they're just afraid someone will read through the specs list and decide against buying it because it can't do X whizbangs. It will be fun to see what happens with the mirrorless market, but I think if sony can improve their lens offerings their decision to go APS on the emount will turn out to be a winner (specifically, I'm hoping the rumored pro-level normal zoom in 2012 doesn't disappoint). I still can't understand why 17mm diagonal would be a good choice for Nikon. I guess the nex are the least pocketable...

By the way, I forgot to mention I want the 24p video, too. I never found the 60i of the nex-5 offensive because it's actually "interlaced" 30p so there isn't any interlace comb or anything, but I just think it will be fun to shoot native 24p and then have clips that can be slowed by a factor of 2.5 and have 24p slow motion.

TaoTeJared, you make some really good points, especially regarding targeted vertical marketed cameras. A great idea, but one I feel most Japanese companies could not execute very well. IMHO, the Japanese really are not innovators, however they keep polishing, and refining the same features over and over again. They stuff their cameras with so many features hoping to achieve the one size fits all. Part of that is they probably develop cameras knowing their home market, and try to make them fit abroad. Since Japanese camera manufacturers have little competition abroad, it works in spite of themselves.

Here in the U.S., we see all these EVIL cameras as one since they were developed with that one size fits all thought. U.S. customers however prefer products taylored to their needs.

I think you hit something, but it is the same something Japanese companies have ignored for years. As an audiophile, I have shied away from Japanese audio. Just deliver great sound, not 25,000 useless features I'll never use. How many features on your camera do you frequently use after-all.

Nothing...from no one? I guess I was smoking crack after all.

I think Sony has the upper hand in this category with Samsung close behind.

Is it only me or does anyone else think comparing or maybe better put, pushing all of these ILC/mirror-less cameras into the same pot (category) is doing all of them ill-justice. They are directed to the same group of people but are very different IQ with different sensor sizes. How many sensor sizes are there now? So far we have a hodgepodge of sizes ranging from x-factors of 4.7, 2.7, 4/3rds, DX, etc. Then you have Ricoh who has a different sensor for each lens.

As much as DxO and other testers want to split hairs with scoring cameras and saying which one is better - Almost every camera can make great images up to ISO 400. Beyond that, comes the "give and takes" that separates theses cameras into user groupings that creates all the discussions of IQ, available lenses, video, features, manual controls, flash capability, ergonomics and many others.

I just see three groupings these camera's fall in based on sensor size; Mini ILC (Sub 4/3rds), 4/3rds, and DX.

I see the issue surrounding these are that they are marketed to try to be something for everyone. Look at Fuji. Fujifilm found out by surprise that you can have a focused system directed to a small segment and it can be wildly successful to the point it has spawned a second camera. If any of these camera makers took their ILCs and "purposed" their cameras towards specific markets I think they all could hit home runs. Market the Parent with small kids or in sports or the street shooter waning exotics like a cheap Tilt shift, fisheye, 1.0 lens. A camera only with a couple of primes, one with mega zooms, one directed more for video, one for 50+ adults. College art students, small town journalists, companies for documented events. Pick a group on similar needs and focus like a laser beam. If your system is consistency focused you gain loyalty. The current shotgun approach seems that it has failed to even hit a broad side of a barn with the approach these current companies are taking.

Am I just smoking crack tonight, or am I touching on something here?

Well, I'm not sure where to put this but I just got confirmation my NEX-5N shipped today. I ordered from the sony store. I don't know why people knock the interface of the nex-5. Is it because they haven't used it? I keep hearing three buttons but there are really 9 buttons and a scroll wheel and I've never felt limited as far as control goes.

I upgraded for the 60p frame rate and the manual video controls. I'm interested to see how the touch screen focus tracking works in video. That will just be gravy if it works.

guys, as much as I loved the idea of NEX-7, right now after the heat droped a little bit, and I saw the price tag I think it's... not worth it. I don't know what Sony was thinking when they set the price so high, comparing to nex-5c. sure there's a different sensor in it, and EVF, but You can get the EVF for nex-5c and as I wrote before, there's no Sony glass right now on the market to deliver this 24mpx.

Honestly, the NEX-7 is the camera that Nikon should have produced. If the EVIL Nikon in fact has the smaller sensor and lack of dial controls, then for sure I will buy the NEX-7.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but Nikon's marketing really seems to have abandoned the people who had a very strong product loyalty. I don't know how much and how long the damage to their loyal customer base is / will last.

I for one am totally discouraged and I really wish I didn't have so much legacy glass.
At this point I have little good feelings left for Nikon.

OK fan boys, tell me to use the equipment I have and make great pictures, I don't need more pixels and that I am a troll. I am ready, but the fact is for new advanced amateur buyers, there is very little reason to choose Nikon these days.

Can the NEX 7 really be considered a pro model? For the price I think it's a better deal than the X100 or X1 but will it's lack of weather sealing make it less desirable in professional circles? Maybe that's something Nikon can exploit on their camera. An AW100 with a removable lens.

NikoDoby said:
How about a miraculously quick auto focus comparable to a DSLR? And miraculously inexpensive lenses for under $200. Of course image quality must certainly be miraculous. Oh and it has to come in a bunch of different colors. One of which must be named miraculous white.

If my demands are not met, then I am not interested.

LOL! I see you are getting more picky as time goes on?

I think you missed out on the miraculous department with one more demand (sorry, request)... That is they have to be miraculously out resolving every else Nikon has ever made... ;-)

TaoTeJared said:
Anyone know how Leica glass fair on the Sony bodies?

From everything I've heard, it fares extremely well. Whether or not a FF lens can really give you 24MP on a crop frame (equivalent to more than 50+ on a FF!) might be a little iffy, but if anyone can do it, it will be Leica.

adamz said:
as for nex7 I'm waiting to see how it will perform with the new zeiss 24/1.8 lens, as anything else from E mount will not be able to deliver to 24mpx sensor.

Anyone know how Leica glass fair on the Sony bodies?