I used to use my SB600s/900s as part of a strobist system but became really irritated by the slowness of the recycling time. I had also used CLS, but the line of sight became a real issue during the daytime, and it becomes really frustrating when it doesn't fire and you're taking pictures of people.

Additionally, be wary to not overuse your speedlights. Over the years, I've burnt out my flash tubes around 4-5 times and had to send it in for a replacement. (Which thankfully happened under warranty). Furthermore, another thing I don't like is that the interface for changing flash exposure for Nikon speedlights is too slow as compared to an actual strobe system. This might not seem like a big deal but when you're on the go, timing matters.

With that said, I now use Alienbees. They're not expensive, you can get one for the price of an SB-700, and they are much more reliable for this sort of stuff than speedlights will ever be. Yes, its a little more to carry around, but I'd rather deal with the extra weight, than spending time worrying about burning out speedlight flashes, waiting for it to recycle, making sure it triggers, etc.

spraynpray said:

Anybody used any of these ring flash things that take the light from your flash and route it to a ring around the lens like fibre optics work?

yes beware they are lens and camera specific
I got a cheap one; 100% useless
but sold it on e bay for more than i paid for it

spraynpray said:
Anybody used any of these ring flash things that take the light from your flash and route it to a ring around the lens like fibre optics work?

Ahhhhhh! I should take my own advice - cheap ones stink - really bad. Orbis and Expodisk have the best two. Expodisk has a more powerful and harder light. I went with the Orbis since it is not Flash/body specific. I use it quite a bit in lue of a soft box. I like it a lot but I have to watch the ISO creeping up due to the loss of light. Only draw back is it's bulky and award, but it takes a beating and is well made.

Thanks Sideways - I got the jist of the original post fine and it is even clearer now.

I think I will stick with the one SB700 for now to use on and off camera - I think being able to fill outdoors will be enough for me for the foreseeable future (famous last words!), and I'll get that cheap studio set I've been looking at.

Thanks to all for your advice, I'm sure it is all great.

Anybody used any of these ring flash things that take the light from your flash and route it to a ring around the lens like fibre optics work?

TTJ - I'm happy with my setup. I thought that it might be interesting to sprayandpray know the decisions that got me to where I am.

The driving factor for me was that I began with a D60 that had no CLS control capability, and the first time I became really interested in flash was through seeing images of what can be done using it off camera. I can do most everything I want shooting full manual with the old nikon speedlights and PW's just as you say.

But, if you want to do something quick and mobile, then the answer is one good nikon flash, shot TTL and bounced off the walls / ceiling and that's where I took one-step-backwards as you noted and got a 900 to use exactly that way at a family wedding.

I think this covers the bases so I don't see me expanding my kit from here. I have all I need and it's also all I can carry :-)

Thanks for the Q - I cleaned up the earlier post to try and make it less ambiguous...

Sideways - you have a good lighting set-up already. What do you feel that you are missing? Many start with the CLS then graduate to pocket wizards and just shoot manual with them. You are actually going the opposite way. Nothing wrong with it, you may need the CLS for what you do. I have to admit it comes in handy.

On the used flash, if they have the rental record - number of times it was out - as long as it was low, it should be fine. 800/900/910s are all made to get beat up and take some abuse.

I have heard good things about the new Metz for Nikon. More Oooompph for less money. Never tried it myself, though.

I like the reviews on lightingrumors.com, maybe you find some info there.

i'm in the same situation as yourself.

i have a d7000 and a sb-700 and i'm looking to expand.

i decided on buying two sb-910s for now. they're portable, can use them on location easily without lugging a battery pack around, work great indoors, will be nice to have for run and gun event photography on the hotshoe, and they're ttl. i always run them in manual off camera, but the reason i like having a nikon ttl system is because they work great with third party triggers and allow me to adjust power levels right from the camera. this keeps portrait shoots moving smoothly with much fewer interruptions. i think 1 sb-700 (backlight/hair) and 2 sb-910s (key/fill/kicker) work great together. eventually i'll spend a little on an einstein set up and keep the speedlights for outdoor shoots only.

while third party flashes are definitely quite a bit cheaper, they're also generally not nearly as powerful and their ttl compatibility is hit or miss. not to mention your nikon speedlight will likely last quite a bit longer, and retain much more of its resale value.

My flash kit evolved over a couple of years.

I started with an SB400 as a compact travel strobe and added an SC29 cord so that I could get it off camera.

When I came across David Hobby and Joe McNally I became interested in manual flash so bought a couple of used SB-80DX's on ebay (both immaculate and priced around £90 apiece) to use in manual only.
Initially triggered them from the SB400 by using their built in optical slaves (SU-4) but soon traded up to (used) pocket wizards so that I could fire it all by radio.

Eventually i got an SB900 for some extra grunt and for the option of one fairly powerful TTL flash to use on or off camera.

For indoor use, this means that I have 3 lights that I can can place at will for main, fill and background or rim light.

For outdoors, I put the 900 and the two 80's on a triple bracket into the same umbrella.This gives me just one light but a reasonably powerful one which I usually fire by radio. Three speedlights, a compact stand and a brolly will go in a backpack ....

As an amateur I don't see myself being wealthy enough to afford multiple SB910's to take full advantage of the CLS system but if I was doing paid work it would be completely different because speed would become much more important.

In your position, I would not get a second SB-700.

A new or used SB-900 as main and your existing SB-700 as fill would make sense to me, and I think they would be fine at close range for indoor portraits or for outdoors portraits balanced against evening ambient. Of course you CLS capability with this combination - nice.

If you just want to do indoor portraits, then a studio set will give you most light for the money.

If cash is really limited and you have time to set up, then why not get some cheap generic or older nikon strobes to use in manual mode. You'll figure out exposures quickly enough - no need for a meter unless you need to get it exactly right.

Hope this helps

(edited - hopefully for clarity)

spraynpray said:

Can I ask what advantages you think a speedlite based system would bring?

Advantage of studio system : more power; built in modeling light

Advantage of SB900/700 : more portable; maintains CLS

if you are working at home, don't do weddings and are happy to adjust exposure manually; studio system makes sense

It seems you are in a similar position to me (decision wise) but your budget may be bigger though.

I have a new SB700 and having recently done some studio work thought it would be good to add another to use the CLS for a twin light set-up. It turns out that another SB700 plus stands, modifiers, and all the little bits costs TWICE as much as a cheap twin light studio kit off eBay. I used a cheap studio kit the other night and got good results (I think) so I'm getting one today.

Can I ask what advantages you think a speedlite based system would bring? The only real advantage I can think of is battery power for outside use, but then the output isn't enough to over-power the sun in a lot of cases so....

they are offering a 30 day warranty on the used sb900.

Are they offering any kind of warranty Paxton?

What are peoples thoughts on purchasing used Speedlights? My local Camera shop has a used SB-900 for about the same price as a new SB-700. I am leaning towards the new 700 - because of the issues I am aware of regarding the 900. The 900 they have for sale was used as a previous rental through the store, so I am not sure if it is advisable to purchase that unit..

I purchased a basic lighting setup there today, and currently only have the SB 400 and would like to get a little off-camera flash system going on... advise? Sorry to jack the thread- did not want to start anew.

I use 2 SB900's and an SB400 on tripods and Pocket Wizards when I need to shoot indoor wedding shots spraynpray. I've no hesitation in recommending a similar setup. I don't use them extensively though, nor do I need a quick recharge rate, if I did, I'd buy the aftermarket mains adaptors that are available to run them off.

a critical factor with flash power is how much you are prepared to "crank up" the ISO
with the D800 I tend to use ~ 800

In day light the highest sync speed becomes important, which is why many professional use a Hasselblad. which will sync @ 1/1000 .thus getting all the power of the flash but cutting down the daylight

As someone who also operates on a rather tight budget I would like to add a couple of LP160s as another option. You would have to go all manual and I don't know if that would be a problem for you. All my portrait work are done with those lights and a couple of YN560s (though I would recommend the LP160, better quality). No problem with power if you're shooting indoors. If you intend to over-power the sun you might have to double or tripple them though.

spraynpray said:

Two heads per umbrella Is something I had hoped to avoid Seven, but I note you said 'through' an umbrella - perhaps that takes more power than bouncing?

No, shooting thought, requires less power

I use 2 to speed up recycling times when inside
and to give me more power to shoot outside

but i don't use them much, if I did I would invest in proper studio lights, which have a lot more power and recycle much faster
I should add, I often use a 3rd SB 900 as a backlight and somtimes an SB 600 as well

@ spraynpray

Ask Squamish via PM how he is doing this. He has the same Elinchrom units I have I believe. My post on PAD yesterday was done with two Elinchrom units with included soft boxes stacked, and a white card fill. These were at half power, so about 400 ws total but distributed so as to cover a knee length night gown on the model. But, the Sekonic L-308S Flashmate - Digital Incident, Reflected and Flash Light Meter used for the initial exposure is an additional $250 in the USA. And with some stands for the light modifiers, it would be closer to USD $1100 just as a starter set.

I would think finding some used equipment that you know how much it has been beaten up would be a way to go. And, as all the fancy stuff was not in existent when I began, I use flash manually. The ISO, aperture, shutter speed are all fixed. The variable is the light position, which ultimately determines the aperture and possibly ISO. I usually shoot at ISO 100, but see no issue with going higher on most of the current bodies. Thus, the small portable flash units should be quite sufficient.

Something to remember, in most cases the plug in flash units are more bang for the buck as the entire battery issue is avoided.

Thanks to all - each post has valuable info in it:

I will avoid the Chinese copies thanks Tao.

2 x SB700 is usually OK, thanks Ironheart.

Two heads per umbrella Is something I had hoped to avoid Seven, but I note you said 'through' an umbrella - perhaps that takes more power than bouncing?

All good info Mike, but 7 speedlights? Yikes! I am concerned about overheating though after doing a studio session the other night, I found the lights need to recycle in about two seconds so I don't lose spontaneous shots due to having to wait for recycling. Flash meters are pricey too, I could use the camera I suppose?

@ Tommie: The set-up I used the other night was only 600WS and I struggled to get the power low enough. I moved a light away a little, but I realised that while I worry about the power of two SB700's not being enough, too powerful is also a problem. Outside would be a different story so perhaps there is a balance to be struck that I don't have the experience to know about.

Further info is 1 x SB700 = £190 used, SB900 = £230 used and by the time I have added modifiers and stands they are quite pricey. There is a complete two flash studio set-up for less money, but using the 'you get what you pay for' maxim, I am concerned about that.

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

Not being certain what expensive is, the Elinchrom D-Lites come as a kit for about $800 and include the stands, soft boxes, and trigger. One has 800 WS when using both. A 400 WS unit will have a guide number of about 260 and the SB-910 has about 100 as its guide number at 35mm position, ISO 100.

There are less expensive studio strobes available and I think there might be a thread on this.

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=4903

As to doing portraits with bouncing an SB-700 into an umbrella I would see no problem. You may be shooting at f/2.8 or so, but this is nice for portraits.It should cover a head and shoulders shot.

Hi all,

If you budget is small, I'd likely look into the used market for an SB800 or another used SB700 or even a used SB910 if they exist.

I have some SB800s and SB900s and prefer the SB800s for their long-lasting work - they never show any failure with over-heating, which is a consistent problem with the SB900s, but the SB900s don't have menus to drill down and fiddle with. I have no experience with the SB700, but of course, you have one. ;-)

In my flashes, I have two 'after markets' that rarely get used that tell me where I should have put my money and what I recommending you should do, too. A used flash of proven usability will even repair better and last longer. I'm still using my SB24 for some things, although it should go on Ebay.

A strobe head flash unit will require a flash meter (something you may already have), some working with lighting ratios (something you likely already know and are familiar with using), but IMHO won't be any better than a speedlight, and when using the Creative Lighting System and lighting channels, you can have it do it TTL. For me it works with 7 speedlights very well.

My best,

Mike

If you are indoors or in good shade, one SB 900 is just powerful enough to work through an umbrella but may be slow to recycle

I use 2 SB900s through a 52 " brolly and boost the recycle time with chinese battery packs

beware a 52" brolly outside, is easily blow over. unless you have a good stand with sandbags

The copies do not do CLS they are just TTL. If you are going full manual they would probably work. Just make sure to look at the ISO on their Guide numbers. I have seen some that state the same guide number as Nikon's but are at ISO 400 or even 800. One of my friends bought 3 copies and dumped them in a soft box to help eliminate "Hot spots" and she likes it. My 900 actually shoots the same as it.

I prefer the 900s and I just picked up another one used for $325. I do use an old 600 for a back light/spot and it works well as a fill flash with a 900 as a main.

The way I figure, spend a bit more, end up with not getting nickel and dime-ed to death by buying cheap stuff and you get the same result. Of course it all depends how much you can control the environment.

If you are just inside You can actually get a basic studio 2-light flash kit for $350 anymore. They will be more powerful and give you better light.

I have two SB700s and I have found rare situations where I wish I had more punch. If I were a pro wedding photographer I'd get two SB900s. Having two of the same model makes it easier in my opinion.

Edit: I meant SB910s.