Well thanks sir. (and now off topic) You live in Parke county? I am heading over to Terre Haute on Wednesday for work and will actually be out and about in Parke county before my meeting in Terre Haute.

I would post a picture I just took of a covered bridge this last weekend, but I haven't gotten around to messing with them yet.

(and back on topic)
I think most people want that priceless picture of the best quality. I think that people obsess with equipment so much in that we all believe we will make money or take that shot that everyone will buy or win photo contests. When in fact I personally see very little difference in any kit lens performance be it the 18-105 or 18-200...they are a bit different in their own respects, but does it matter that much...probably not.

We all want 36 MP to blow up billboard size pictures or super sharp glass to have them featured in national geographic. I mean I have been saying since I got my first dSLR that I was going to make money with it and shoot this and that. I might have taken some decent pictures, but I still haven't made a penny! I do blow up some pictures and have them around the house, but most are just desktop backgrounds of sitting on my hard drives.

I have mentioned it before though and even the lowly (insert whatever body you want here) and an 18-55 kit lens can take awesome pictures. I have opted as time went to get more and better glass. Each to fill their own niche for me and make taking pictures in certain situations easier. Each time spending more and more on the lenses. Now amassing nearly $5000 worth of stuff (now having made negative money since we have made prints for other people for presents), but some days I can't tell the difference from my 18-200 and my 17-55. I have now made educated and reasonable purchases in that I knew what I needed after a while and figured out what lenses to get to help with those needs. I started with my D5000 and 18-200. I think anyone starting out should do the same if they don't really know. I don't believe it is waste and you learn in the process. Gosh if I look back I know I made a similar thread to this when I was getting my D5000. Plus you can always spend more money later when you contract NAS (the need to buy more and more Nikon equipment all the time!). This weekend I did some nighttime long exposures for the first time in a long while and I was learning and struggling the whole time. Even with all my stuff and now several years under my belt I am learning all the time and it was fun. I also have slowly purchased and upgraded, but I don't have any equipment without a reason, I use it all, and they all have a known purpose.

tcole1983.........

A GREAT post, sir ! I was just thinking the same thing ! When I read all of the "requirements" people have, (and they want it ALL in one lens, (and preferably one which is "dirt cheap" ! My thoughts are, (after messing around with photography for about 60 years now)......if you don't "know about" photography, it's almost impossible to figure out which camera to buy to start out with, (let alone which 4 or 5 lenses to buy to go with this "starter" camera ! (And I just noticed someone up above mention that "don't pay any attention to Ken Rockwell, as he's a "schmuck", (whatever)......WoW ! I don't necessarily agree with Ken on every little thing, but if he's a "schmuck", he's certainly the single smartest "schmuck" I've ever run across !
Here's what I fail to comprehend; my fiancee's son and his wife, (with a total combined income of around 150 K, take more pictures than anybody I have EVER known.........he with his "Blackberry", and she, with her iPhone ! (and no children, no house payment, and yet another BIG promotion (that's imminent), Yet other people still in college, struggling to even survive, are "torn between" whether to "start out" with a D 7000, or a D 300 ? All while people "with means" are satisfied with cell phone photos ! (The world is a strange place, as are the people in it !

This is a TRUE STORY........I live in a dinky little village in western Indiana; our big "claim to fame" is.........we happen to have more wooden covered bridges than any other county in the U.S. So seeing people taking pictures of the covered bridge we have in OUR village, is a very common thing........people come from "all over" just to take pictures of OUR particular bridge, as it's the one most people "know" about. Anyway.......to illustrate how very different, different people are........one evening, just before dark I see this fellow with a fancy looking camera (on a tripod yet), about to take a picture THROUGH the bridge; (and it's almost dark)

The curiosity got the better of me.......so I just HAD to "get nosey".....and and "casually" ask him.......whacha kinda camera yu got there , son ? The guy's got about a 3 day beard, but he ISN"T any "hillbilly", (even though he clearly assumes that I am "one" !
So he casually remarks, "Oh, it's a Sony A 900 (if I remember correctly) ( I'm not at all familiar with ANY of Sony's new D-SLR's (even though I AM a walking "catalog" of just about everything Nikon makes, from the D 40 on up. So we get into this conversation about "the latest and greatest" D-SLRS, and the guy happens to mention the Nikon D 700; and I'm like, "yeah, but for a full frame, FX body, and for only $2,700, it's a great deal.....and he looks at me (like he just saw a ghost), and proceeds to pull out of his bag......a brand new D-700 with a pretty decent lens mounted ! So we talk some more, and one of us mentioned the D3s (my camera to die for at that time, about 2 years ago; so he says, "let's step over here to my motor home, I want to show you something; (the "something" was a brand news D3s ! At this point, I'm thinking, this cat is either a rich millionaire who just buys every expensive camera he sees, and while I'm "pondering that", he's going nuts, wondering, "how the hell does this old hillbilly know so much about all the latest and greatest Nikon D SLR cameras ?

It was undoubtedly one of the most "unlikely" (while at the same time, very pleasurable conversations I've ever "blundered " into ) ! This fellow must have had easily 50 k worth of very expensive cameras in his bag, and in his motor home; (and we were just standing outside , by the door, but I could see inside )........and as I'm looking at this "strange looking contraption" on the floor.......trying to remember where I had seems something that looked like that.... I said.....Uh...is THAT by any chance... a Segway ?

And he goes.....good lord....don't TELL me you've ridden a Segway ! " No, never rode one, but I've seen a few, (mostly at Midway Airport in downtown Chicago) so he drags the Segway out, proceeds to un-fold the "steering "thingie".....and while I'm asking him "how long does it take to learn to ride those things", he's already telling me, any where from 30 seconds to about 6 months, just depending on the "prospective operator" ! ( It took me all of about a minute and a half to "master" the Segway ! By this time he's convinced I'm a camera salesman in some big shop someplace bigger than Terre Haute, and I'm realizing that this fellow is actually some kind of a pro photographer, who obviously isn't "broke", (what with 50 K in expensive new cameras, two Segways, and a pretty classy small motor home to haul it all around in. Turns out this guy's contemplating writing a book about our county's covered bridges, and I finally had to admit, after "several years of relative inactivity in photography, I was starting to get the "urge" to get back into it, and buy a decent new D SLR, and as is my nature, anything I get interested in, I tend to read everything in print about it, the better to determine how much to spend, and which camera to buy.

And my new "acquaintance" is thinking of photographing ALL of our 34 covered bridges for his "prospective new book........and I mentioned........it's been tried before, never been commercially successful, and HE says, Yeah, but I have something DIFFERENT......my pictures are ALL going to be taken from THE AIR ! Me........"good grief, don't tell me you have a helicopter ?" He..."Nope, no helicopter, but even BETTER ! I have a BLIMP ! (after the 50 K of hi-end cameras, 2 segways and a motor home, now this guy's got a damned BLIMP ? NO WAY ! ( Turns out the "blimp" is a huge "blimp-shaped" ballon, that takes TWO 200 lb cylinders of helium to fill it up, to lift the camera to the necessary height, (which is actually MUCH lower than any helicopter can safely go, and it's made specifically for doing ariel photography from very low altitudes; I forget what he said there blimp cost, but when I asked him what two cylinders of helium costs, and "isn't that pretty darned wasteful, having to "deflate" the blimp after every bridge, he explains, I only have to let one cylinder of helium out, THEN the blimp will fit into my cargo trailer ! Me......."looks to me like you need a bigger trailer ! " He........."yeah, you're right again, and I'm working on getting a bigger trailer !" ( And I'm thinking....."is there ANYTHING that this guy DOESN"T have" ? " A VERY wealthy girl friend, possibly ? "

And that's really what everyone should do; learn as much as possible about the "subject"; in this case, it's such a humongous subject, that one must first determine MANY "things" about one's self, before you have any hope of making an intelligent decision, regarding "which camera to buy"? Some people have more interest than others; some have more money than others; some have more "enthusiasm", and so on; It's really a daunting task to make objective suggestions about cameras, unless you first know a lot about the person needing the advice ! Some people may be ecstatic about photography one day, and almost equally as "enthused" about buying a boat the next day… (I'd hate to recommend someone buy what I like one day, only to find the next day that they really wanted to buy a boat ! Even though I know a bit about photography, (over many, many years), about all I can do, hell, all anyone can do, is to tell people what I like, and WHY I like it, and if you see any relation to our "likes and dislikes"....maybe you'll like what I like, and then again, maybe you won't ! I can only suggest to prople what I like, based on facts, as opposed to merely what my "taste" dictates that I like.

This is a fantastic website, and I love it dearly, HOWEVER.........there are a couple of VERY "vexing" things about it......(or is it just me?) ... that tend to drive me "batty".....??

A. first of all... many (or most?) of the questions being asked, were asked one, two and even three years ago ! Yikes! what use is there in answering someone's "year old question" about "which camera to buy ? ( Nikon has probably come out with two more models by now ) !

B. and the passwords ! the password that I'm obliged to type in, would probably be great (if I was a spy, working for the National Security Agency ! I mean...talk about SECURE passwords ! This thing is so "secure" that NSA would take six months trying to crack it with their super-duper-computers !

(and it's real hard to even type in, what with upper case. then lower case, then "punctuation" marks, followed by more upper and lower......Whew !

The website I'm "used to" has 900, 999 members, so when a thread gets started, 637 people answer it in the first 3 minutes........ and here, i/10 of that take about 9 years ! (but at least I like what people like to "talk about" on here a lot better )!

C. my third and final "rant" for the moment.......every time I try to change pages, I somehow become "logged out", thereby necessitating going through all of that laborious password nonsense all over again ! I think I need a simpler password ? like maybe "1,2,3,4" ? (if I can just find the password department !)

Just watched this video comparison between d800/5d3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NuozUxh_tOU

i think he is pretty much spot on - each camera has it's strong points and both of them aren't too far away from each other. Make your decision based on which of those points are important to you.

Maybe since the movie probably started production 2+ years ago?

You are kidding yourself if you think movies studios are not shooting at low ISOs and with full lighting set-ups that probably cost as much as most people's homes.

That is just a slightly different than what most people have laying around. ;)

It is interesting to see what tools people use, but I rarely take it as "one system is better" and just take it for what it is - that is what they had and used for their own reasons that we will rarely ever hear about. I saw one clip for a commercial that used Panasonic GF1 - because it fit in the glove box of a car. No other reason, but that it fit. Sometimes it is as simple as that. Other times it just comes to cost and availability.

That being said, Canon has been doing video- for what, 40 years? Digital since it's beginning. Not surprising if it is better or at a minimum more preferred to work with. Same with Panasonic and both of those systems seem to be preferred by many videographers.

heartyfisher said:
"I just read the Canon post where the Avengers used the Mark II and EOS 7D to shoot several scenes, and in several other cinema movies. Why are all these movies using Canon and not Nikon?"

D800 was not out when they bought the camera gear :-) .. The Canon cameras did have an advantage over the nikon for a few years.. but the D7000 has more than caught up except for the lack of 60 fps.
The D800 has well and truly over taken the current crop of canon cameras .. but who knows what the next crop of canon cameras will be like.

check out this web series on video shooting with DSLRs note that it is a few years old now. http://www.zacuto.com/shootout

Canon still have the advantage though, no doubt Nikon have beaten Canon in some areas.

"I just read the Canon post where the Avengers used the Mark II and EOS 7D to shoot several scenes, and in several other cinema movies. Why are all these movies using Canon and not Nikon?"

D800 was not out when they bought the camera gear :-) .. The Canon cameras did have an advantage over the nikon for a few years.. but the D7000 has more than caught up except for the lack of 60 fps.
The D800 has well and truly over taken the current crop of canon cameras .. but who knows what the next crop of canon cameras will be like.

check out this web series on video shooting with DSLRs note that it is a few years old now. http://www.zacuto.com/shootout

msmoto said:
I mean "Joy Ride"

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/02/07/joy-ride-the-nikon-d800-promo-video-is-out.aspx/

Watch this, full screen, sound up a little. And as a girl who used to ride a clipped Hayabusa (no top end governor) I can attest, this is one H... of a ride. Lane splitting in ChiTown is terribly illegal, and the wet streets and sport bike mean one's rear wheel is constantly fighting for grip. The rider is obviously a well accomplished pro.

Wow! Great video, absolutely fantastic. Also watched the behind the scenes, and it was all shot with the D800. This makes me want to get the D800 even more. I'm so jealous! :P

The body in EU is too expensive (3,000€) compared to US (2,350€). I find it ridiculous :( It's either I get the D800 and no fast lenses / extra equipment, or get a Mark II / 7D / 60D with fast lenses / extra equipment, and the Mark III is anyways overpriced.

I have recently read, there is a Magic Lantern Firmware for Canon cameras. I haven't read much about it yet, but it seems like it's some sort of extra feature for Canon cameras. Is there anything similar like that to Nikon?

THe tarmon 17-50 non VC is not without issues either, live view AF is unusable for example and it has something strange going on with the blue color. 18-105 is not one bit worse than the 16-85vr, when image quality is concerned, I compared them against each other extensively. Let's see what else, oh yes d7000 metering is only better indoors or outside at golden hour, in high contrast situations it's consistency is rather random, not better than the entry level Nikons, maybe even worse. AF system is more versatile, but not one bit more accurate.

msmoto said:
Congratulations! I think you will find that even though the 18-105 is called a "kit lens" it will perform as well as some of the ones costing five times as much....Just be careful as he mount is not a sturdy as some of the pro glass. But you decision is very good.

ya i noticed the fact it wasn't as sturdy but OMG the fluidity of being able to shoot pics last night was amazing it made my job so much easier and more enjoyable! and as far as the "kit lens" goes i totally agree with I've used other kit lenses and this has out performed any ordinary kit lens as well as some more supposedly "better" lenses I've tried

im deff so happy about my decision!

TheMonster said:

You mean the I am Nikon ad?

I mean "Joy Ride"

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/02/07/joy-ride-the-nikon-d800-promo-video-is-out.aspx/

Watch this, full screen, sound up a little. And as a girl who used to ride a clipped Hayabusa (no top end governor) I can attest, this is one H... of a ride. Lane splitting in ChiTown is terribly illegal, and the wet streets and sport bike mean one's rear wheel is constantly fighting for grip. The rider is obviously a well accomplished pro.

I just read the Canon post where the Avengers used the Mark II and EOS 7D to shoot several scenes, and in several other cinema movies. Why are all these movies using Canon and not Nikon?

msmoto said:
@Mike Gunter... Yes, I agree the quality of video from the DSLRs is phenomenal... the D800 pre-release commercial of the motorcycle in Chicago...an example of the very best.

You mean the I am Nikon ad?

TaoTeJared said:
Sigma's lenses are certainly hit and miss. If you are willing to send them in a few times to get the focus right they can be really good options. I do like their EX "Pro" series lenses. Honestly I stick with Nikon so I don't have to worry about any issues.

The one thing about 3rd party OS/VC is that it takes longer than Nikon's VR for it to kick in - Similar to Nikon's 1st gen VR. The Tamron lenses do take a split sec more I have noticed but if you wait, they work really well.

Good point - I was assuming you would buy it - make sure to do so - then Run for the hills! Or get some nookie - whatever floats your boat, but I would take that one if the price was cheap.

Maybe I don't demand so much. I only have first gen VR lenses.

Congratulations! I think you will find that even though the 18-105 is called a "kit lens" it will perform as well as some of the ones costing five times as much....Just be careful as he mount is not a sturdy as some of the pro glass. But you decision is very good.

so i finally made a decision i got the d7000 with the 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6 lens :) I've been testing it out all day and it seems pretty amazing I'm loving but the real test will be when i go to work tonight!

i think I'm gonna also get the 35mm f/1.8 next week not sure about that one yet though

@Mike Gunter... Yes, I agree the quality of video from the DSLRs is phenomenal... the D800 pre-release commercial of the motorcycle in Chicago...an example of the very best.

I suspect the issues arise in the servo zoom, focus, eye level viewing and general handling features. There must be some reason for those $50,000 and up cameras... But, for me, I cannot think of one, ha, ha, ha...

HI Monster

Do be aware. If import, you MAY have to pay additional taxes and you MAY have warranty issues

sevencrossing said:
The D400 IMHO may not ever happen

One type of equipment that does differ are radio triggers ( pocket wizards) as they use different frequencies

I edited the post and meant D600, not D400. The D600 is most likely coming out before photokina, which is something to consider, since I would be able to invest into good lenses that I would need for filming.

Thanks for the info about the radio triggers. The issue is that the D800 is 3,000$ in US which would convert to about 2,350€. But if I were to buy the body here in EU, it would be straight up 3,000€+ which is annoying, since I would only be able to afford the D800 if I were to order it from the US. Besides the Radio Trigger, is there anything else? I don't want to have to buy all accessories from the US while just one extra (radio trigger) isn't a problem.

The Monster said:
r either the D800 (which sounds beautiful) or possibly the Canon,,,,,,,

Now with the Nikon D600 in the picture, you guys think it would be better to get the D400 along with a nice 2.8 lens? Or straight for D800 and play with a 4.0 lens?

Does anyone know, if there are any differences between US and EU models?

The D800 is indeed beautiful
The D800 is available but in very short supply
The D600 is just a rumor and may not be available till next year
The D400 IMHO may not ever happen

Stop sitting on the fence order the D800 you might just get it by your target date of June,

f2.8 or f4 ? For stills I find f4 just fine, but videographers seem to prefer f2 or f1.4
I am not aware of any difference between US and EU camera or lens models . One type of equipment that does differ are radio triggers ( pocket wizards) as they use different frequencies

Thank you everyone for your input.

TaoTeJared said:
Sounds like you are getting rolled into the marketing hype of numbers a bit.

I think that might have been possible, and that I might have been worrying a bit too much on that. It was that every well known videographer that used a dSLR (example Devin Graham, Episode for House, etc...), used a dSLR from Canon.

After doing some more thorough research and going through your comments and suggestions, it really seems like that I might aim for either the D800 (which sounds beautiful) or possibly the Canon EOS 7D.

Now with the Nikon D600 in the picture, you guys think it would be better to get the D600 along with a nice 2.8 lens? Or straight for D800 and play with a 4.0 lens?

Does anyone know, if there are any differences between US and EU models?

As to the Nikon vs. Canon question, I wouldn't worry about it to much.

When the D90 came out, Nikon DOMINATED the video SLR market (no other camera could do it). After that, Canon got the edge. The primary differences were better rolling shutter performance, quicker to implement 1080P, and apparently a better codec (although I can't verify this as I don't know much at all about video).

With the D800, Nikon bests Canon w/ uncompressed HDMI output (again, I don't know what this is, but my videographer friends say its useful). The D800 also leads the pack in rolling shutter performance, and the ability to shoot stills while filming (somebody correct me on this if the 5DIII does this).

Until 4k video comes of age, the differences between platforms is going to be pretty subtle. At any point since the D90, Nikon & Canon have been within 6 months of each other in terms of features. Just get a modern camera that meets your criteria and don't worry about anything else. If you already have an investment in Nikon glass, I'd stick with it.

The one caveat to this is that Canon makes dedicated Video cameras that are compatible with the EOS mount. Nikon is not in the Video Camera market, so there is no dedicated F-Mount video camera. If you are very serious about video, this should probably figure into the equation. Of course, you can always use a F Mount -> EOS adapter, but if you have the money for one of Canon's pro Video shooters, then managing two systems isn't really going to be a problem for you.

I have a friend who does photo and video for weddings and they are able to fill their schedule months ahead. They have some nice video dedicated cameras (Panasonics), but are increasingly moving to DSLR.

He was showing me stuff they did on DSLR (a Canon crop sensor similar to D7000) for a local winery and a few weddings. The thing he was trying to teach me in those shots was the impact of support. To him the support and the software were the most critical aspects for him in getting the output he wanted (I think they mixed with separate audio from boom poles so they didn't rely on cameras for audio where they weren't just putting music over it). He has used alot of things like different rail systems, tripods, monopods and seemed to shortlist a Merlin for any time you want the camera to move or a Bogen video monopod (like my 561B) for any time you are stationary. His point was yes you can use SW to correct motion but you are trimming your resolution so that is not the right way to get pro results.

Hi all,

@TheMonster Can you share what you are going to do with the camera? There are other options besides Canon or Nikon. Panasonic's GH2 would be handy for video and comes in around $1300 for the body and with an adapter will use any of the Nikon lenses. Arguably a better video camera then either the Canon DSLRs or Nikon DSLRs, but not quite the still camera of any of the APS-C cameras. It may well be what you are looking for.

Your budget isn't stellar, but then none of ours started that way either. I'm happy with my D7000, but I will let the dust settle on the D800 and get one later this year or so. After a through reading of the manual, it sinks in that my DX lenses will automatically work with a DX outline in the Viewfinder, and the metering, and other niceties will also automatically adjust (or should), should I should be able to transition easily.

I bring this up so that you _may_ consider the D7000 as a bridge to the D800 when it becomes more available to you, assuming it meets your needs now, and that you stick to FX lenses that you need, for the most part.

If video is keen to you, you'll be investing in microphones, and perhaps a location audio kit that will include some sort of remote capture, or at the least, a means of getting a feed into the camera. I use both a Tascam recorder and a JuicedLink box. We also have wireless and wired microphones.

Our audio investment is over your total dollar budget.

Happy hunting. ;-)

@msmoto "I just left a bunch of pro videographers at a court house. ..."

It entirely depends upon what kind of video one is shooting and where and how, with what skill level, and what kind of circumstances, etc., one can paint with too broad a brush to categorize everything as all-in-one. I shoot all my video with DSLRs, but then I've given up shooting 'gun'n run' affairs, too, and that matters. Recently I've shot two national commercials and and an insert for PBS documentary with the D7000, so I wouldn't put it in the 20x category, unless age counts, too. ;-)

You are totally right about how something weights and hefts in the hand.

My best to all,

Mike

I just left a bunch of pro videographers at a court house. ABC, NBC, CBS, free lance, many folks shooting pro video. I this is what you are planning, I noted in your first statement "professional" events, then you will need a budget of about twenty times what you have to get started. Not one of these folks were shooting with a small DSLR, but with a large video camera.

However, if, you are shooting amateur footage, go out to the camera store and try some DSLRs out, read the magazine tests, and decide. So much of how a camera works is the way it feels in our hands. And this is what you must do, find out how it feels in your hands. Maybe look at the recommendations on the forums, then go try them out.

TaoTeJared said:
Old manual focus lenses will work on any body. The In-body AF screw drive is only on the D7000 on up - but since they are MF - there is no AF on those lenses.

D90 and up support screw.
D7000 on up support METERING with AI/AIS (Manual Focus) lenses.
For manually focused video, I start running out of hands well before I get to ISO and Speed so Speed Priority and Auto ISO are very useful to me.