I'm not so sure if I'm sold on the whole shooting flat workflow that I've always been tought. Shane Hurlbrut has been making a lot of noise in the HDSLR community lately saying otherwise.

Mike Gunter said:
I don't think that DSLRs with video have been out for 5 years, but I might miss the intent of your remark.

Hey, Mike! I originally bought it for use with a DVX100. When I got my D90, I tried it out, and it was perfect! Since commercial links aren't allowed on NR, I would appreciate a PM with the address of that product!

Hi Studio,

I don't think that DSLRs with video have been out for 5 years, but I might miss the intent of your remark. ;-)

There are several 'homemade' rigs and some that others are selling. Here's a photo that is selling for under $1K.

I don't have it, I have never used it, never held it in my hands, and can't attest to how well it works.

D7K is H.264, but I'm not to sure that FCP edit's it natively, without using ProRes. I think FCP transcodes just about everything.

My best to all,

Mike

studio460 said:
Since Nikon announced the D7000, I don't really care about the D3s' video workflow anymore. I once did a search for "editing D3s video" and "Final Cut," and found this 37-step procedure. It looked ridiculously complicated.

H.264 for the win.

jonnyapple said:
What brand is your cheap rig, studio? I'd like to find one.

I wish I knew. I just searched for "shoulder mount," or something like that, about five years ago and found it online on a crummy little, one-page website. It wasn't made by a traditional manufacturer--it was just a guy in Hollywood that handmade them. I'll post a picture of it later.

Mike Gunter said:
I'm not sure about how much shutter control one will have with the camera. _Generally_, motion picture film cameras only have one shutter speed, 1/48th of a second.

Hey, there, Mike! Another video shooter here--great! Thanks for the affirmations--yeah, a 1/48th shutter speed is all I care about at this point. As you know, with the D90, you have no idea what shutter speed the camera will "choose."

Mike Gunter said:
Final Cut Pro's way of handling the CODEC is, as Studio460 indicates is rather inelegant. It did, shortly ago anyway, transcode to an Apple CODEC and use that.

I went to an NPS seminar a couple months ago, and Sports Illustrated photographer, BIll Frakes, showed off his D3s-acquired video footage. It all looked great. I asked him if he transcoded to ProRes, and to my surprise, he said, "No, we just edit it directly." Didn't really understand what he meant, but I think he did say that they edited in FCP. He did however mention that he would freely share his D3s video workflow to anyone that e-mailed him. Since Nikon announced the D7000, I don't really care about the D3s' video workflow anymore. I once did a search for "editing D3s video" and "Final Cut," and found this 37-step procedure. It looked ridiculously complicated.

Hi all,

"Mike, you're going to scare him away =D" Hope not. :-)

Final Cut Pro's way of handling the CODEC is, as Studio460 indicates is rather inelegant. It did, shortly ago anyway, transcode to an Apple CODEC and use that. I use Vegas for it's simplicity, but for our video work we have been using DVC Pro HD, a professional CODEC that, when we started, only a limited number of NLEs could edit easily. Adobe Premiere Pro was one of the better solutions for that CODEC. It doesn't hurt that I teach Adobe products. ;-)

What target the production is matters, of course. Our _Outdoors_ Channel experience (I DP a few episodes of a hunting show) over the last few years is 720p60, and PBS series (which ended a 6-year run for which I was the Associate Producer) was 1080i60, neither of which fits any of the current D7K formats, and I have no clue whether Nikon will offer a firmware update. I'm hopeful, but I'm not betting the farm.

For HD broadcast, a 1080i60,1080i50, 1080P30, 1080P25, 720p60 and 72050 would have been more useful rates. Of course, no one asked me. I'm guessing that fewer than .01% will convert their video to film, something that 1080P24 would really make sense in using.

All CMOS cameras have rolling shutters, even the Red cameras, it's how well they manage data from the sensor to the video processor. Canon does this better than Nikon right now. Even Panasonic does it better.

But shooting movies isn't shooting stills. The jello effect can be nearly eliminated if the camera or subject don't jerk around; the use of a fluid-head tripod might solve the problem altogether.

Studio460 is also right on target that the APS sensor is larger than most of the film 35mm formats, so that you can get film-y looking stuff from a APS-C camera - one _doesn't have to go to full frame_.

I'm not sure about how much shutter control one will have with the camera. _Generally_, motion picture film cameras only have one shutter speed, 1/48th of a second. The mix of aperture and shutter speed is accomplished by the _angle_ of the shutter which is a rotating disc. The disc is angled so many degrees to allow the light to hit the film for proper exposure. The time is fixed, _generally_. Undercranking_ creates fast motion, overcranking creates slowmotion, and special shutters can create special effects like the hyper-reality of _Saving Private Ryan_.

Of course, in electronic video, even in the D90 and D7K, there are no shutters. There are electronic switches that go on and off collecting data, but down to 1/24th (popular convention will call it 1/30th) of a second only - the upper limit I'd be clueless to, or you'd have under cranking, something that would be nice, but not promised nor mentioned, and if it acts like a _film camera_ 1/125 and over would cause over cranking, but again, I doubt that, too. It could, of course, put all the information in multiple frames, as to fake long time, or short time, but that wouldn't be so good either would it? I would want my camera to shoot honestly.

I do like the AVCHD CODEC. It's robust in it's color space and most NLEs can handle it. I think it's a step up from the MJEG. One of the issues I had, and it's the dummy in me, I didn't use the picture controls in the camera to neutralize the footage prior to taking the video. Since the CODEC is MJEG, picture controls influences movie output, you want less contrast in the video so you can manipulate in post. Oops.

While I sound like I'm bashing the D90, and I sort of am, it can make nice-ish video. The trouble is how limiting it is. I think Nikon can do a lot better. I'm hoping it will.

I ordered my D7K from Amazon last Friday, so I'm committed to it.

My best,

Mike

What brand is your cheap rig, studio? I'd like to find one.

You're right about the flicker reduction, but we'll see how well it works. Most fluorescent lighting these days doesn't run at the mains frequency anyway.

If you need some comfort about the d7000, I missed the d300 announcement back in 2007 but preordered as soon as I heard (about 1.5 months after the announcement). I still got it delivered the day after thanksgiving—as soon as anyone else I read about who had two-day shipping and actually before my uncle that ordered it the day of the announcement.

pher said:
You're going to need some kind of light weight shoulder support rig if you want decent video.

I just wanted to mention that I bought a really cheap shoulder rig for like $90 online somewhere from some guy in Hollywood a while back, and it works GREAT! I put my D90 on it (using a Stroboframe quick-release plate), and I couldn't believe how steady my shots were with this "cheap" rig. Don't be fooled into thinking that you "need" to be buying one of those $1,800 Zacuto rigs to shoot "good" video. Sure, eventually, you may want a more capable rig to be able to mount follow-focus rails and whatnot, but there still are far less-expensive alternatives to Zacuto for that as well (e.g. CA Vision, Red Rock Micro, etc.).

djkozz said:
@studio460: Well said! Everything you wrote is just what I've been thinking.

Well, good luck, and I hope I haven't steered you wrong! Now, I'm wishing I also pre-ordered a D7000 the second it was announced as well! I initially was going to let the camera beta test in the market for a month before I decided to get it, but now, I just can't wait to get my hands one!

Although, I do still expect some degree of rolling shutter ("jello") in the new D7000 also, but at least we'll finally have manual control over both shutter speed and ISO . . . FINALLY! And, I imagine that Nikon engineers worked hard to reduce the rolling shutter artifacting as best they could this time around, seeing that the D90 earned the dubious title of "most jello-ey" V-DSLR of them all. Also, I thought I read somewhere that there's a Hz-eliminator setting for shooting under fluorescent lighting in the new D7000--that will be helpful as well. I think the D90's video looks decent, it just has a huge amount of rolling shutter (plus, it's absolutely useless to me as a filmmaking tool without any control over its ISO and shutter speed).

As a DX-format still camera, the D7000 looks fantastic! The 39 focus-points, the weather-sealing, etc. . . . in my opinion, Nikon has a real winner here for the "advanced amateur" market.

monty11 said:
To me pre-ordering a camera before any indepth reviews are out is like driving your car using only a map and the rearview mirror.

Read your comment then just placed an order for one myself. When you make it sound like that, you're daring people to do it.

Chase Jarvis and his team are happy to answer questions about shooting with the camera on their blog. If you have questions, I'd say that's a great place to go while the official reviews are still pending. Between that and it being a Nikon my only concern is for early model issues, but I assume Nikon will be good about that.

To me pre-ordering a camera before any indepth reviews are out is like driving your car using only a map and the rearview mirror.

What do yoou shoot and what projects will you need the fx+1080p for?

I was in a sorta similar boat as u and found myself needing fx low light handling more than my d90 could offer...the video I hardly used, too much jello and whenever I did offer a clip for my clients, it looked amateurish and smugmug took too long to upload it...

So I got a d3...

If I were you, stick out the d300, still a great body...get the d4 when it rolls out next summer, or gimp a 7dk until then if projects dictate otherwise....

@Mike: The important thing about my situation is that I'm not looking to create any full-blown video projects. It's just something I want to dip my feet into, experiment with, and see where it takes me. Still photography remains my first priority, and with that I'd like to jump from DX to FX, and would prefer to stick with Nikon if they can provide what I want, which is a negative at the moment.

@Pher: I think I'm all set as far as storage goes, at least for the time being.

@studio460: Well said! Everything you wrote is just what I've been thinking.

Summary: I've decided to re-preorder a D7000 and use it to familiarize myself with video and to fulfill my video needs/wants until the proper FX body is released, with the hopes (and assumption) that it will have 1080p. I really appreciate everyone's responses and detailed opinions. Good luck to all! Thanks!

David

I love Vegas, too. My dad has Vegas and I have Vegas Movie Studio (crippled to 4 video tracks and fewer codecs).

pher said:
Premiere has always been rock stable for me.

Didn't mean to knock it completely. It's a good program with a high degree of integration with the rest of the Adobe suite, especially After Effects (arguably, the most widely used 2D effects app in Hollywood). It was my primary editor for several years, and I had originally decided on its purchase precisely because of its tight integration with After Effects and all the rest of Adobe's applications (I own both Adobe suites, plus the ridiculously expensive "production" version of AE).

But, for whatever reason, I just happened to have a lot of stability issues with it, even on a dedicated, NLE-only system. Also, I was editing 2:3:3:2-pulldown, 24p footage almost exclusively with it, and Premiere was never really able to handle mixed-framerate timelines. Vegas, by contrast, was very stable and virtually never crashed. I've since converted to FCP on an OS X system (which has also crashed from time to time). I wish they made Vegas for OS X!

Premiere has always been rock stable for me.

@djkozz:

We have similar aspirations and decision points. I have a large investment in manual-focus Nikon glass, specifically purchased over the last two years for filmmaking, so option '1' is a no-go for me. I would recommend option '2.' That's what I'm doing while waiting for a 1080p24 FX body from Nikon, which by the way, I'm guessing is anywhere from six months to a year from now.

More to the point, it's not that anyone "needs" 1080p, it's that you need a modern CODEC that works well with modern NLEs, and in my view, the D7000's greatest benefit over both the D300s' and D3s' video capabilities is its AVCHD CODEC. I haven't actually performed the workflow for the D3s' video, but it sounds like a nightmare if you're working in FCP.

Also, while full-frame is great for stills, it's less important for video applications. The DX-sized sensor still offers tremendously shallow depth-of-field if you want it, and is still huge in comparison to the 2/3" sensors used in broadcast cameras. In fact, the DX sensor is approximately the same size as the Super35 film format which is even larger than the "regular" (academy aperture) 35mm motion picture format.

And while I promised myself that I would never buy another DX body, I'm buying a D7000, and waiting for the still camera of my dreams when Nikon brings out the next iteration of its FX flagship or D700 replacement, whichever comes first. In contrast to filmmaking, I think FX bodies do make a significant difference for still imaging applications, and I would like to start shooting FX-captured stills, exclusively, as soon Nikon introduces a new FX body.

As for NLEs:

Windows:

Sony Vegas is the most fun and has the easiest to use interface in my opinion (effects proxies are shown previewed on-screen without needing to make a menu selection, while both Premiere and FCP make you pick them from a drop-down menu to preview). Vegas is also best at combining varying framerates on the same timeline. It's also very stable. Adobe Premiere Pro just crashes too much (at least once per edit session in my experience).

OS X:

Final Cut Pro: ultimately powerful--not as easy to learn as Vegas, but well-integrated with best-in-class tools.

Mike, you're going to scare him away =D

Right now the 7D is the best SLR for video. If you really want to get serious I'd go that route. There is a bigger community, hacked firmware and emphasis on video.

I'd also consider getting a couple of hard drives to raid1 or a couple of SSD's for editing. Your hdd speed will trump your system specs when it comes to most things. You're also going to need drives to backup all of your video footage, which will add up really quickly with even half HD footage.

I'd highly reccomend spending the time between now and when you actually get a camera to familiarize yourself with a video workflow in Premiere. You could always go the FCP (Final Cut Pro) route if you're a Mac user, too.

Everyone I know that films with 5D/7D all use Nikon glass, so you're not going to lose your investment from a truely video sense. For stills, stop down metering is a pain in the ass.

Depending on how much you have invested in Nikon glass, I think you should possibly consider the Mark II strongly. My brother uses it and says nothing but great things about the camera. The Nikon equivalent may never be released, and you get a better camera overall than the the new D7000 I believe. However, if you have some nice Nikkor glass and don't want to buy pricey new Canon glass give the D7000 a shot. I wouldn't wait for a new release now that photokina is over. If money is an issue you could always experiment with the D90 even though the video is only 720p.

Hi,

If you have a _shovel ready project_, storyboarded and ready to go, with a crew, cast, budget, etc., then I'd buy the Canon (or rent one - or better yet, hire a guy who owns one as your cinematographer ;-) ) and a converter (Novaflex) for the lenses until the project is done.

DSLR video is a fantastic, but unless you have experience with film making, I'm not sure that jumping into videomaking with a hybrid is going to really be fruitful. It's a long row to hoe.

The real boon to filmmaking that the DSLRs offer is terrific DOF control over cheap (less than $25,000) video cameras, with the opportunity to use some really nice lenses. But the trouble is that to get terrific 'film-like' results from these DSLRs will take more than just pointing and shooting.

There's a lot of hub-bub about the automatic focus on the D7K (and I'm sure it's welcomed by most), but nearly no one that makes film who uses auto focusing unless there's an effect that's he or she is trying to achieve.

I fiddled with my D90 and finally got some nice stuff out of it, but the literature on 'how to do it' is nearly worthless. I'm sure the D7K will be much, much better at doing video, but I'm not so sure the explanation on how to do it will improve at all.

You likely, in most circumstances, could use an APC-S sensor from a D7K with a 35mm at 1.8 or 50mm 1.4, or 85mm at 1.8 or 105 at 2.8 and get the DOF you need for all the shooting for your story. All the DX wides should work (in this case even zooms will work - there shouldn't be any focus or DOF issues - in _most cases_).

There will be additional expenses in monitors, audio devices - I use a Tascam DR100 for capturing audio which means an additional audio guy, microphones, cables, steadying devices, focus pullers, lens hoods, etc., the list will more than double the cost of the body, should you dress the camera out completely - I didn't choose to go that direction, and I have a video component to my business, so some of my investment is already made.

Make sure that you know what you're getting into with the editing software - I teach Adobe Premiere Pro (and Photoshop) as well as Sony Vegas Pro and either of those are easier than Avid.

Most of all, unlike photographs that all have a "place" somewhere - you can always hang photo on a wall - video has to have an audience. You write and produce it _for_ and audience or it has no meaning or basis. You might want to work on your script or treatment first and hammer that out. You might find that your story doesn't even call for a shallow depth of field.

My best,

Mike

Correction to one of Pher's links: http://www.dslrnewsshooter.com/ (tried it without the www. and unlike the others, it didn't work that way).

It sounds like you may want a handy cam for ease of use. I have tried a friends D90 and it is a big learning curve. If you just want clips and are not making money from it, a simple video camera for a couple of hundred bucks may be the easier option.

Pher- Thank you for your feedback! Yeah, I don't have any experience shooting any DSLR video, much less 1080, but I figure if I want to jump into it, I should go all out. I'm not the kind that takes baby steps haha, even though it's probably appropriate to do so in certain situations. But like I said in my first post, money's not so much an issue right now (fortunately!), so that gives me a lot of flexibility. I think I might do something along the lines of your last post; get a D7000 and use it (along with some other gear) to learn the ins and outs of video.

I think reading so much online is what makes things so difficult for me. So many reviews, so many Canon vs. Nikon debates, so many pros and cons of every model of every brand out there. Two days ago, I placed a preorder for a D7000. Six hours ago, I canceled it and was certain that I was getting a 5D MkII. Hahaha

We were typing at the same time, so just saw your most recent post.

If you've got some trips coming up you've got a lot to learn in a short amount of time if you want to get good video.

I'd get the D7k - if you can find it - and spend the rest of that money that you would have spent on a 5D/lenses or D3s and get some video gear.

You're going to need some kind of light weight shoulder support rig if you want decent video. I'd also consider getting some manual lenses and follow-focus. If you rely on handheld/new auto focus you're going to get some soccer mom looking footage that you won't be pleased with.

These are good resources for you:

dvxuser.com
cheesycam.com
dslrnewsshooter.com/

Are you experienced working with 1080 footage? I see a lot of people stressing out about 1080 over 720 and they don't have a workflow established for either. You're tossing a lot of expensive ideas out there.

You need a pipeline setup to get anything out of HDSLR video.

I'd say buy a D7k to learn how to best shoot/edit in an HDSLR world, and then you will be ready when the next FF solution comes out.