Nikon at CES: no sign of the DL cameras




Several readers visited the Nikon booth at the 2017 CES in Las Vegas and reported back that there were no DL cameras on display and the official word on availability is "TBD" or "coming soon":

I'm here at CES and stopped by their booth after reading your call for DL delivery date. Unfortunately I spoke with three separate people and they are all playing stupid or not providing anything. They wouldn't even offer a guess... sorry I can't be more helpful but that is their official line.

Here are a few more pictures of the Nikon booth and the official Nikon@CES presentations schedule:
















 

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  • Aldo

    Call me crazy but I think nikon is deliberately holding these cameras…They are pushing d3400 and d5600. They figured why would people buy those when they can buy a DL for 650 with a premium lens already included. I know there are many who ‘milk’ these cameras but most buyers never change the kit lens.

    • Dukat

      DL range is already out of date, ain’t no one gonna buy them unless you are a pathetic nikon fan boi

      • Aldo

        Not really they are still basically an RX100 IV or V…. I bet you these cameras have a lower profit margin than the d3xxx and d5xxx series… that’s why they don’t want them out yet.

        • SickVodka

          really.. you try to compare it to a RX100?
          No offense but they are far behind the RX100 series. Nikon can’t deliver crap and customers are pissed as hell. Most Customers who ordered a DL Camera already cancelled and bought something else. Like an RX100.
          they dont care about their users.. else why would they come with a useless 360 camera with reeeaalllyyy baaaad Quality.

          • Aldo

            Truth is we don’t really know how the DL cameras will hold up against the RX100… on paper they are the same camera… with even some features added : touch screen, longer lens. They may be even doing sony a favor… who knows what happens behind closed doors.

            • Shutterbug

              Are you kidding me? The RX100 has a F4.9 lens, slow FPS, no 4K, no PDAF, etc. They aren’t even remotely in the same league. It is a 2012 camera.

            • Allen_Wentz

              Mostly I agree; however as of CES 2017 the DL remains vaporware, so denigrating a shipping competitor is just wrong. _Nikon_ is the one not in the league.

          • Shutterbug

            The RX100 is 5 years old, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

            • sylynn

              It was already clarified in the original comment the RX100 IV or V, and when continuing to simply say “RX100” it’s understood (by most) they’re still referring to the IV or V.

            • Thom Hogan

              You might think that’s understood, but you might want to talk to Sony, who says that the I and III models are still part of their CURRENT lineup.

            • jimmy

              What about II? I must admit I thought the conversation was referring to IV and V. For all its faults in certain areas of Sony’s camera lineup and marketing strategy, it’s undeniable that the RX100 cameras have led the way in recent years in the compact high-end market and the fact that the first iteration is still competitive proves that. If Sony was to announce an RX100 type camera with a wide lens in the next few months, then I suspect it could be troublesome for the DL series, which would highlight the terrible decisions being made by Nikon management in this ONE instance. In fact I wonder whether Sony is a player in this as Nikon seem to be moving away from using Sony sensors, yet as far as I’m aware, the one inch sensors are Sony produced, and the Japanese earthquake that caused so much damage to Sony’s sensor manufacturing plant, has been used a bit too much in my opinion as a reason for product delays. What’s your thoughts on this?

            • Thom Hogan

              You can still find some II’s, but as far as I know Sony only officially recognizes the I and the later models as “currently in production.” I suspect that has to do with parts they ordered and still have in stock.

              The earthquake even hit Sony hard for sensors. The 1″ sensor is only made in the plant that was basically closed from April through September. Generally it takes three months from bringing a raw wafer in the front door and shipping a finished sensor out the back.

              Figuring out the exact quantity of 1″ sensors that made it out in 2016 to makers is a bit tough. There were some wafers that were out of the steppers and into the finishing areas when the plant closed, and Sony says that they did their best to finalize those as quickly as they could. A number of companies would have already had some inventory of finished sensors on hand when the plant stopped providing more.

              Here’s the thing: I believe that Nikon was doing one of their special one-off changes to the basic sensor. They had no inventory of the sensors that they would have wanted to use in the DL if I’m right. In that case, they would have had to wait until the fab restarted in September, and they wouldn’t have been getting a full quantity of finished sensors until December. That would be cutting a January global launch pretty close, and Nikon can’t afford another QA incident on first ship.

            • Yan Charette

              I disagree with him however there is five rx100 and one just came out not long ago… Congrats on looking silly,

            • Thom Hogan

              You can disagree all you want. But: http://www.sony.com/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-cameras/dsc-rx100.

              Sony has moved to a Nikon-like scenario where they keep models for sale long after the next generation appears, and they have kept many of those in production, so it isn’t extra inventory that they’re selling.

        • Sawyerspadre

          They should have a lot less parts, and I would bet some of the delay is tied to some new chip that combines a bunch of old parts. When they get them out, they should be lower cost to produce. Who knows, maybe they will upgrade spec, and raise prices at the final launch? One reason to not show, or talk about, is that maybe the DLs will not be the DLs that were shown a year ago when they finally show up.

        • Pat Mann

          Without the built-in EVF. It was a (price unknown) slip-off (oops where did I leave that?) option when I cancelled my order. Perhaps they’ve redesigned to include the EVF as they should have in the first place?

          • Thom Hogan

            Doubtful. Otherwise they wouldn’t have updated the DL Web site pages on their site recently with so much information.

          • I recently upgraded from a Sony RX100 II to a RX100 IV simply because the newer model had an EVF. The older model was simply unusable in bright sunlight.

          • The omission of a built-in EVF makes it a non-starter for most enthusiasts (which I guess signals that they are not marketing them to enthusiasts).

            Incidentally, CameraPro in Australia have these listed with “ETA late March 2017”.

            • I think February/March is the new unofficial ETA.

            • Northerner

              I am trying to resist… Canon is calling me with the new EOS M5. *Subcribed to Canon rumours*

            • Spy Black

              The M5, while I’m sure is relatively compact for it’s format, is not in the same compact league as the 1-inch posse.

            • Northerner

              Indeed but the temptation is not less real!

            • Pat Mann

              At least the EVF is an available (though expensive, I expect) accessory, which made it marginally acceptable to me. Though with it you significantly degrade pocketability compared to the Sony.

            • An optional EVF also degrades ‘bagability’ as it would need to be removed prior storage most times. It would be a case of open bag, remove camera, locate and fit VF, use, de-mount VF, store VF, store camera, close bag.

              With a built-in EVF that sequence is open bag, remove camera, use, store camera, close bag.

              Never mind the wear-and-tear on the hotshoe or the fact that you can only use the hotshoe for one thing at a time.

              Lack of an integrated EVF is not a problem for some people, but automatically makes it a non-starter for me.

        • If they can’t manufacture 1″ sensor cameras far more cheaply than DSLRs they’re doing something seriously wrong.

      • Shutterbug

        @ Dukat can you please provide a link to the competition’s 18-50mm 1″ sensor body with PDAF? I would like to place an order. Thanks.

      • Lee Smith

        Hey fuccboi,

        Why are you reading Nikon Rumours if you are a Sony “fan boi?”

        Sony users are the most insecure camera owners around since they know that Sony can change direction at the drop of a hat…..

        • I use both Sony and Nikon depending on requirement. It’s very easy to use multiple brands because Nikon does not have a consistent interface between models.

        • I have to agree with your statement – I deal with Sony fanboys on PhotoRumors and they are not fun 🙂

          • raziel28

            In my view, they have to “defend” their choice because they are much more SONY haters.
            Especially in Fuji and Leica colours. 🙂 That is weird in my opinion, they are all MILC after all.
            However, even though I like SONY (I have been using their video cameras for years) I also like Nikon, but I’m photographing with Canon… 🙂
            I am a fan of photography, I love all brands.
            Regards

            • You know, it is not a matter for what one likes or owns, it is about having an intelligent conversation about photography gear. I am obviously a Nikon and Leica fanboy, but it is important to keep it civil when talking about your favorite brands. That’s all. I owned the Sony RX1 and I loved it. I do like what Fuji is doing… and that’s about it 🙂

            • Have you played much with Fuji’s bodies? At least for me the controls seem quite thoughtlessly placed. I switched to Nikon for the ergonomics (despite Nikon’s weird tendency to “move the cheese” as Thom puts it) and still haven’t found another company that really gets it (besides Leica, which I can’t afford and doesn’t meet my needs).

            • It’s strange to me how nasty camera discussions get, usually centering on brand. I think we’re all insecure because of vendor lock-in and rapid release cycles (you could buy a Nikon film camera and not expect it to be “obsolete” for five or ten years). I’ve given up on Nikon to provide a good small mirrorless solution and grabbed a M43 body, which — despite being new — was instantly supplanted by a newer body from the same manufacturer.

          • Thom Hogan

            This is all about self-esteem. Those that have to go to great lengths (and beyond, all the way to cyber bullying) to defend a simple temporary consumer choice are showing their lack of confidence in their decision.

            Nothing overly wrong with Sony cameras. I use some myself. But to put them up as all-being, no fault products is not correct. All products have strengths and weaknesses, as do all companies. Open debate on that helps us all understand our choices. Trolling, bullying, etc., just helps us understand a poster’s lack of contribution to the discussion.

            • ZoetMB

              I had a brand new, still in the box, relatively expensive camera strap that I wanted to sell, so I put it up on Craigslist and yesterday I met up with the guy who wanted to buy it. Turned out he was a Sony A7s user and I’m a Nikon user and we had a very nice conversation about photography. He was the first to admit that when you put a big lens on the Sony, you lose the size/weight advantage. There’s no reason to turn equipment choices into political arguments – political arguments are silly enough all by themselves.

              I don’t participate in sites about cars, but do Honda/Toyota/Nissan, GM/Ford or BMW/Mercedes owners have these kind of silly arguments with each other?

            • Rolf

              iOS vs android, religious organizations,.. and yes cars sites are the same. There are hardcore bmw fans they go to great length to defend the brand.

            • Thom Hogan

              Yes, they do (still argue about cars). Indeed, Amazon just spent US$250 to produce a season of Grand Tour, which is basically a TV show where three guys argue vociferously about cars.

              We also still have Apple/Microsoft (or Apple/Google) arguments, and if you want to really see how irrational it gets, you can see it on the chainsaw sites, too ;~).

            • And Fender vs Gibson/Marshal.

              Kodak vs. Fuji.

              CCD vs. CMOS

              Pepsi vs. Coke

              VHS or Beta

              …these things sort themselves out. Somebody always wins. Rarely is it the consumer.

            • Nikita

              yes, of course the car guys do. It’s human nature.

            • Spy Black

              Oh yeah, motorcycle clans as well. Ducati and Harley guys are their own religions.

            • Rolf

              Sony sure has a lot more fanboys/trolls on certain rumor site. I have invested first a-mount, then e-mount, and now considering Nikon. Sony works well for my landscape work but inadequate in many areas in addition to lack of a complete system. My choice of Sony was because of discount I get thru a family member. $20k later it’s harder to switch to another system but it’s worth considering. All depends on 2017.

      • Christopher J. May

        Out of date? Can you please tell me who else is selling a premium compact with an 18-50 equivalent lens?

        • Ctaya Chan

          DL 18-50 is very attractive and I really want to get it. But unfortunately, there is no sight of it, let alone “selling”.

    • Spy Black

      You just realized they’re deliberately holding these back? 🙂

      • ZoetMB

        That’s ridiculous. They’re not deliberately holding them back – how would that make any sense whatsoever? Where’s the return on investment? If they felt any kind of cannibalization, they wouldn’t have made them in the first place. This is evidently some kind of big manufacturing or design flaw problem.

        • Spy Black

          Seems more like a big administrative flaw. 😉

          • I would call it a big management flaw.

            • Spy Black

              That’s a gray line there, don’t you think?

      • Ctaya Chan

        Any technological advantages will fade away with time.

    • James Donahue

      I wouldn’t call an 18-55 a premium lens

      • Pat Mann

        It’s a 24-85 or 18-50 full frame equivalent, each with a good lens speed. That’s definitely a premium lens IMO. Not the same FOV and speed category as the 18-55 kit lenses for DX at all.

      • Aldo

        It’s a fast lens… usually fast lenses are considered ‘premium’ lenses. We don’t know how it will perform though.

    • It’s getting pretty hard to ascribe to Nikon any kind of sensible reasoning behind its marketing decisions. Clearly the technical genius is still there (look at the D500 or the new 105) but the decisions as to which products to build and how and when to bring them to market are incomprehensible.

  • Dukat

    Nikon, all dressed up and no where to go. What was the point of being at the show. The cost of bringing all these pro photographers for demonstrations at a show that is there to present big new tech must have lost nikon money compared to the sales they made at the show.. just yet another clear example of piss poor decision making by nikon. 95%of the people at the show have no idea who Joe McNally is, hell 80% of photographers in the world don’t know who he is.

    • T.I.M

      They don’t even know who T.I.M is !

    • Member

      The point in being at the show is just to let you know that, even though they don’t have any new products, Nikon still exists.

      • Diversity for Israel

        In real life, that translates as a moot point.

    • Thom Hogan

      CES is not a selling show. You can’t sell from the show floor. It’s a classic trade show mostly directed at dealers/big box/etc.

      • ZoetMB

        It’s not a selling show to consumers and in fact, they supposedly made efforts this year to keep non-industry pros out of the show, although attendance still reached 180,000. But I think they do write orders from retailers and distributors don’t they? CES is unique in that most trade shows have gotten smaller over the years or ceased to exist. (Remember COMDEX, PC World and whatever the Apple show was called?) CES has gotten larger.

        • CES really isn’t a photography show. The auto industry is quickly taking over the show with driverless cars and transportation technology.

    • Sawyerspadre

      And, by the way, the D5, D500, D5600, new 19, 70-200 etc are new, since the last CES at least in terms of shipping. Thom is right, it’s not a selling show, but if they were showing a suite of sweet new DX primes, along with a D7300, the Nikon fan base would be more excited. A D760 or D810S would be icing on the cake.

      • Thom Hogan

        I’ve been thinking about the notion of “optics” a lot recently (it’s a politician’s term that has to do with perception of spin). Nikon’s optics are all wrong. They’re completely out of step with virtually every constituency they interact with, except maybe their parts suppliers.

        How others are perceiving Nikon is no longer how Nikon perceives themselves. That’s a very dangerous problem to have. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Nikon management sits entrenched in their Tokyo HQ believing that they’re doing the right thing, when any swing through the customer, dealer, or distribution constituencies asking tough questions would tell them otherwise.

        I’ve just finished watching Downtown Abbey. One of the interesting sub themes running beneath the basic plot is that of a turn away from paternalism. Indeed, I’d say that DA posits that modernism could only occur with such a step (in the context of turn of the 20th century Britain).

        The question I’ve been raising over and over for the last decade has been how do the camera companies move to be in step with the modern tech world? The answer isn’t going to be found with paternalism, which is Nikon’s go to cultural choice.

      • ZoetMB

        At CES, it’s not really about the “Nikon fan base.” It’s about getting dealers and distributors excited. At CES, dealers make choices about what they want to sell in the next year that’s going to put the most money in their pocket. They don’t look at it quite the same way that a user does. A dealer will get far more excited about an increase in margin or a marketing co-op deal than an increase in resolution or the addition of a DX prime lens.

        • Sawyerspadre

          Yes, CES is the trade, and press. Yes, it is about relationships and programs, but it also helps to show products that will pull through the channels, because the user base gets enthusiastic about them. Dealer programs only go so far, if the product isn’t compelling.

      • I remember talking to a couple of Nikon reps at a photography event at the Los Angeles Convention Center several years ago and asked them about a D400 or other cropped frame sports body and they just totally dismissed me. No problem. I still use Nikon equipment but I’ve bought several A77 IIs (plus Sony lenses) which are the equal of the Nikon D500 (I own 1) which isn’t quite as fast.

    • The kinds of folk who are impressed by CES launches aren’t really aware what happens the rest of the year.

      That said, none of the camera companies made a signficant splash at CES because they’re all pretty clueless:

      http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/6/14183134/canon-nikon-sony-cameras-photography-ces-2017

      I doubt Black Magic or RED give a damn about CES. (As usual, Apple was ahead of the curve and gave up on CES years ago.) It’s a shame we don’t have a visionary still photography company on par with Black Magic. Maybe Hasselblad or Leica but they only want to sell to professionals and people who buy expensive mechanical watches.

      We live in the Twitter era — press releases and bullshit extravaganzas targeted at the press are obsolete (do you think Trump would have gotten any attention if he had sent out his tweets as press releases?) and it’s probably a good thing in the long run.

  • silmasan

    The fitness model pair look so out of place there.

    • Spy Black

      Just like Nikon…

  • Eric Calabros

    Coming soon..er than the judgment day

  • Viktorija Druva

    good – finally we can take this useless subject out of news… nobody should ever care about DL line in first place (those who disagree – you had not seen a 1” inch sensor compact camera with marketing hype before ??? go buy one from other brands right now – you wont switch systems because it is fixed lens anyway – so no excuses – go buy one if you need one – if not – SHUT UP!!!)
    And now that it is over a year late – please just stop reporting about it.

    • Stop reporting on it? Sorry but this is what I do and I have no plans on stopping.

      • Thom Hogan

        Yeah, we’re seeing classic cyber-bullying. Don’t like the message so shoot the messenger.

      • Nyarlathotep

        Uggg, some people. Anyway, most of us appreciate your hard work. Be it good or bad news/rumors, we want to know.

      • I just hope Leica Rumors will give us some more inspiring news … LOL :).

        I appreciate your hard work entertaining us all. Happy New Year! :).

    • Fly Moon

      SHUT UP

    • Member

      If you don’t want the reports, please just ignore them.
      If you don’t like the reports tell us how to improve them.
      If you want us to buy another brand/model, convinces by writing a honest and thorough review/comparison of those better 1″ compact cameras.
      I’m sure if you have something interesting to tell Peter will publish it here.
      Meanwhile let us enjoy the reports here on NR.

      ps. I’m not asking you to “shut up” on the contrary let yourself be heard, provided you have something to say.

    • doge

      Dingus

    • Diversity for Israel

      Go troll elsewhere, nobody cares about your rant.

    • Nyarlathotep

      Sigh… Seriously dude? Just because you don’t have interest, doesn’t mean others don’t. If you don’t like the subject, don’t read it. And why you would bother posting on the matter is even more crazy. Crickey!

  • Nikon at CES: no sign of Nikon

    • Thom Hogan

      Technically not correct. What we see of Nikon at CES is only signs ;~).

  • Sprout De Vlieger

    I’m still waiting for the DL24-85. Some say it’s out of date. So what are the alternatives that aren’t when looking for this in a compact: fast, good jpg, 4k, easy handling, affordable, great looking. I think the 24-85 still (will) tick those boxes. So i’m holding on for some time more. It’s just a half year late now. The deadline is cp+ I guess? Thanks for the updates @NikonRumors:disqus ! cheers

    • Clubber Lang

      I was waiting and waiting and finally bought an Olympus em10 II.
      While it’s not as small as a point and shoot it sure does fulfill the role of a smaller camera to carry around when I don’t want to carry my Nikon gear. If I’m not willing to carry around either then I use my phone. If you are used to a Nikon DSLR then you will feel right at home with the Olympus once you set up the custom buttons. It has a front and back control wheel etc. it’s not a pocket cam though and I never use the video feature that you might.

    • Spy Black

      The only real advantage of the 24-85 is it’s price. I don’t see anything else that’s really outstanding of it.

      • Sawyerspadre

        Seems like a decent walk-around travel camera. If the lens is good, it would have a market. It’s about the images. If it’s light, small and the control layout makes sense to people, and it makes great images, it will sell.

        • Spy Black

          I’m not saying it won’t sell, I’m just saying that the 24-85 has no other advantage to all the other similar 1-inch cameras other than it’s price. There’s nothing else that it offers that isn’t available in other cameras of it’s ilk.

          • Carleton Foxx

            If it appears, we would hope it offered typically gorgeous Nikon color science and tone curves, class leading autofocus, plus the unique Nikkor lens rendering. Otherwise, you’re right.

            • Spy Black

              Unfortunately that’s not necessarily always the case with Nikon cameras, especially compacts. Some yes, some no. For instance, I have P340 that, while not horrible, is not exactly all of what you’ve mentioned. It’s a convenient compact with decent image quality, but that’s about it.

              The competition on the 24-85 is high and polished. I don’t really see this camera offering much more than an attractive price compared to the competition.

  • Mistral75

    > Unfortunately I spoke with three separate people and they are all playing stupid or not providing anything.

    Playing possum isn’t exactly the best tactics in such case…

    • pete in OKC

      Having served booth duty at major product shows including CES for a big blue company – starts with a P – I can assure you the staff have no interest hiding information. They wish to tell all they know. The problem is they don’t know. Sure they want to show off the stuff they have on display, however their key role is to provide management with market interest. Hovering around the wings are top US and factory drones taking notes. Keep asking for a product long enough and they’ll get the message.

      • Mistral75

        By “playing possum” I meant Nikon, not the unfortunate booth people.

    • iamlucky13

      Definitely not. It’s been almost a year now since the original announcement. Without at least some idea when the DL is coming out, there’s no reason for a customer to continue holding off on the competitors 1″ compact offerings in hopes of getting the Nikon.

      It’s really unfortunate for Nikon, because there seemed to be a lot of interest in the wide angle model in particular.

      Regardless of how it happened, their lack of communication about the delay is helping neither them, nor their customers.

  • JoCarpenter

    Ok, nice set of photos from your reader!

    • Yes, indeed – I went one year to CES and it was horrible, I mean I like the show but covering it was a bad experience – no wi-fi, no cell coverage, no place to sit… I am glad that readers are now sending me pictures so I don’t have to go trough this again.

      • Carleton Foxx

        Trade shows are the worst in my experience. The media is very far down in the hierarchy.

        • The Photo Plus show in New York is not bad at all. I never had any problems there and I have been multiple times.

        • Thom Hogan

          Every company always tries to manage the media at the trade shows. Good media shines through, though. Problem is, where is the good photography media these days?

          • Carleton Foxx

            Well, let’s see, Herb Keppler is gone and Phil Askey is in hiding, but Stan Horaczek the online PopPhoto editor has a good attitude (though his editors should push him to do more investigative stuff).
            So that’s two people, Stan and you. But it seems like Nikon is locked up tighter than Apple…you’re really the only person covering it like a real journalist. You need an apprentice.

    • ZoetMB

      Except that it LOOKS like exactly like the PhotoPlus show from October. Looks like the exact same booth setup the exact same way.

      • Thom Hogan

        I’m sure it is. You don’t tend to build one-off booths because these are at least six-figure expenses, and in the case of Nikon’s booth size, probably seven figures.

        Back in my Silicon Valley days we did new booth designs about every other year. The booths that we built would go to a trade show, then go to storage and only come out for the next trade show, as that’s cheaper than building a new one.

        If you do it right, you have the ability to put “new messages” in place (essentially posters/signs/etc.), but the fundamental stuff tends to stay the same.

  • DLynch

    Even if they release the DL’s and for dreamers another N1 camera this year Nikon needs to realize they lost this battle along time ago. Sad to see Nikon going down this path. I love their DSLR’s but their lower end gear is pitiful. 1″ sensor gear in my opinion should be left to the cellphone point & shoot crowd.

    • Pat Mann

      To me, the 1-inch sensor in its current state is the threshold for something enough better than a cell phone to justify having it along in addition, and compact enough with a good prime or short zoom to carry around all the time. Much more compact than APS-C or even MFT gear, particularly if you’re trying to have a 300mm-equivalent FOV just in case.

      • Sawyerspadre

        I would think the primary benefit is that it would better in low light than your cell phone, and can zoom optically, with a far larger sensor. To me, it’s a decent camera for a trip where the primary goal is not photography, but you don’t want to lug the DSLR.

      • DLynch

        I agree 1″ is better than a cellphone but I wouldn’t use either for keepers. Nice for sharing online though.

        • Thom Hogan

          And why not? The current 1″ sensor cameras do just fine for 8×10″ output, maybe even 11×14″.

          To many people make their assessments on pixel peeping, the equivalent of 0-60mph times in car tests.

          • Spy Black

            An 11×14? As long as it’s well exposed at a decent ISO, you can get a larger print than that form a 1-inch sensor.

            • Thom Hogan

              I’m using 8×10″ for a reason. Not only are you somewhat freed from the diffraction issues at that size, noise at higher ISO values is not within visible range (might take a bit of NR at very high ISO values).

              My point is similar to the one I started making about DSLRs over a decade ago: “If you can’t make a good looking 8×10″ print from a Nikon 1 camera” it isn’t the camera that’s the problem.” (For DSLRs I used “the maximum size of a desktop inkjet,” which at the time was 13×19).

              Too many people complain about “noise” and other issues that simply aren’t perceptible in the output they’re most likely to use from the camera. If @denislynch:disqus wants to claim that he only keeps images capable of being displayed without visible issues in 36″ or larger prints, then I’ll take his point. But I’m pretty sure that’s not his definition of “keeper.”

            • Spy Black

              Unless he speaks up further about it, I think he simply refers to image quality. Content is a different issue of course. Let’s face it, if you can’t get a good image off a CELLPHONE, the problem is not the medium.

  • Scott

    No DL but the 100th Anniversary bag is kinda cool.

    • manattan

      Agree the bag looks sweet. And Nikon themselves can use it to store their customer’s dashed hopes in.

    • ZoetMB

      Maybe I’ve become too much of a nit-picker, but it’s the same cheap yellow plastic bag they’ve been giving out at shows for years with a slightly different design to celebrate the 100th. Now CES is tough because 180,000 people attend and while not all of those visit any one booth, giving out something decent can be quite costly. But having said that, it’s time for Nikon to stop giving out this piece of trash that just gets thrown away by people after they bring it home (many never leave the hotel) and dump out the literature they pick up at shows and give away something better (IMO).

      Although the shows were far smaller than CES, when the company I was an exec at did trade shows, for two years we gave out these really cool cloth mini backpacks. I would still see people walking around with them years later. Another company gave out a cloth shoulder bag with their logo beautifully silkscreened and the bag itself was sized to hold 12″ LPs. I still use that bag to this day. But maybe for Nikon a small cloth bag with a beautiful Nikon logo silk screened or a cloth decal that’s sized to hold an iPad (or a DL or Keymission or Compact) and a few camera accessories.

      Or, a lot of companies give out USB drives these days. Nikon used to produce a really beautiful and informative full line print catalog. How about putting all of Nikon’s catalogs and sell sheets on a nice USB drive with Nikon logo and give those out? Maybe it has some videos on it as well (or links to videos).

      I realize the bag has the advantage of people walking around the show advertising the Nikon yellow bag and logo, but in the end, what does that really do? Any dealer/distributor who is at CES and who is in the business already knows Nikon.

      • Thom Hogan

        Excellent points, all.

        Boils down to: if you give someone something that’s cheap and throw-away quality, they throw it away.

        • Horshack

          I might be missing something but IMO giving out these plastic bags is the best bang-for-buck for brand-awareness marketing that a company can achieve at CES. When I walk the show floor I see hundreds of these bags being carried around and the black-on-yellow coloring really grabs your attention.

      • Scott

        I was being subtly sarcastic. Like those old joke t-shirts… “my parents went to Hawaii and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.”

      • MoreMoreS

        Nikon did do something like that at the D5/D500 launch. Giveaway was a nice D5|D500 polo shirt or hat. Shirt is surprisingly nice quality. Full color glossy brochures. Spread was cheese, crackers, cookies, chocolates, pastries. But the event was for ~80 not 180,000.

  • Bob Cozzi

    Somebody send me one of those “100th Anniversary” bags from CES, I normally make it there, but not this year. 🙂

  • Bob Cozzi

    I am so over the DL lineup. They couldn’t deliver it, so let’s move on. I’d like to see a Nikon M5-like camera and a “D760” and “D820” this year, but I’m guessing my D750 is going to be my buddy for another 18 months or so.

  • Spy Black

    The 100th anniversary bag seems about the only cool thing Nikon has at CES.

  • Lee Smith

    “playing stupid.” Uh, speak for yourself. Do you really think the people manning these booths have a clue what’s going on in Japan?

    • Sawyerspadre

      They are briefed on what the “stories” are, and what NOT to say. I am sure Japan has told them precisely how to answer DL questions. Top brass is meeting with B&H, Best Buy and other large sellers and giving a well-prepared story of why they are late, and when to expect these cams. My guess is that they will announce them on the day they ship. Just a hunch, but it would allow them to sell them as they make them, and not have a huge backlog of pre-orders, in the case that the main issue is a shortage of sensors. A good review, and a “shortage” of units can help sustain price and improve profits.

      • I just read a story how Best Buy is greatly reducing the size and inventory in its camera departments in all of its stores. Not the best way to sell more cameras.

        • BestBuy is a joke, this was the Nikon section in my local store just a few weeks ago:
          https://www.instagram.com/p/BKe28aGgNRR/?taken-by=nikonrumors

        • Sawyerspadre

          Probably true, but it still brings place utility for a few DSLRs and lenses, for Nikon. Local camera stores and Best Buy are about the only places to go touch a camera. The compact cameras are shrinking the fastest, and I am sure that area is being reduced.

          Support your local camera store, if you still have one.

  • Michiel953

    So the big Nikon news at CES is ‘There is no news on DL’.

    Great.

  • TheMexican

    Must have the DL18-55!!
    Can wait for it any longer, this just bumms me out!
    The RX100 range just isn’t good enough

  • Kyle

    I hope when they are released they at least do some sort of promo – like include an extra battery and memory card etc with the purchase.

    • Pat Mann

      And EVF? Just sayin.

      • Kyle

        True.

  • Alphaios

    If Nikon doesn’t gives something big for their 100th anniversary, I’m switching brands.

    Unlike Sony, Canon and even Olympus; Nikon really really relies on their photography division (60% of their revenue or something like that). And currently they’re really not making too much of an effort to show their determination to push the industry forward…

    • Maybe you should spend more time making photographs and less time worrying about equipment.

      • Ineedmy Bobo

        People can be frustrated with Nikon and still enjoy photography. I just happen to be enjoying my Fuji X-T2 right now rather than waiting for any sort of Nikon DX or FX mirrorless camera. 🙂

      • Alphaios

        Yeah well with this argument you can kill any possible criticism in the camera industry ever… maybe you should spend more time photographing then on Rumor sites?

    • Sawyerspadre

      Just curious, what is the number 1 thing you would like them to announce?

      I think DX wide primes would be nice.

      13mm 2.8 to get you the 20mm FOV
      16mm 2.8 to get you 24mm
      18mm 2.8 to get you 28mm
      Updated 24mm 2.8 to get you 35mm

      Small, sharp and affordable. They could all be like the DX 35mm 1.8, in terms of build.

      • Yeah, they made a seemingly excellent 18.5mm lens for the Coolpix A. I know it’s matched to the sensor so it can be a lot smaller, but you’d think that they would be able to apply some of the know how to make a smallish DX prime of the same focal length.

        • Captain Megaton

          It’s matched to the sensor (angled microlenses, probably) and of course all the distortion correction is baked in. Can’t do that on an F-mount, since in principle the lens must perform acceptably on a film camera.

          • Thom Hogan

            Not true at all, otherwise lenses like the 16-35mm f/4 wouldn’t exist. Moreover, I don’t know of anyone shooting film that isn’t digitizing at some point in the process, so CA/distortion corrections can still be done prior to print.

            • Captain Megaton

              What the heck does the 16-35 have to do with this??

      • Pat Mann

        The 35-equivalent needs to be a fast lens – that’s the night/street/indoor reportage shooter. In today’s world, to compete with Fujifilm and others, the 24/28 should be as well. And the ultrawide should be 12mm at least (90 degrees horizontal).

        • Sawyerspadre

          Agreed, but I would also consider fit in the lineup. If you need a fast 24, I have heard the 24 1.8 FX lens is very good, but not small, or very affordable. It seems a good value for what it is, I am not badmouthing it, but I wouldn’t call it small, and it’s a little pricey.

          For that reason I would start with a 16, then add the 12, then fill in between. The current 24 2.8D and 1.8G can cover that FOV in the interim.

          The prime lenses wider than 24 is where the real void exists.

          • Max

            Actually a 24mm 1.8 dx (35mm in fx fov) is high on my wishlist. One that’s pocketable like the current 35.

            • Sawyerspadre

              Would that be smaller than the FX 24 1.8? If you need that, I would buy the FX version today.

              I have the 24 2.8D and it’s small, light and sharp.

      • Alphaios

        I personally am an FX shooter (D750) but I’d really really love a new df that has roughly the size and shape of my old Nikon FE2, not such bulky thing like most DSLRs. Analog SLRs where so much more compact…

      • XanderV

        If they had any one of those DX primes, I would probably have never left Nikon. I loved my D7100, but just a simple lack of an autofocus wide angle prime drove me away.

        I could have moved up in sensor with a Nikon body, but the size factor of the original Sony A7 was alluring. I’ve been happy with my A7 along with the FE28mm f2, FE50mm f1.8, and some adapted legacy glass.

        I still miss how physically solid and responsive the D7100 felt, but that’s placated by how versatile the A7 has been for my rather limited needs.

    • ZoetMB

      As I’ve posted before, I really don’t think Nikon is going to do anything special product-wise for the 100th. I could certainly be wrong, but Nikon hasn’t done any anniversary products in a long time and most of the ones they did do were limited versions largely sold in Japan only. Also, past anniversaries never pointed back to 1917 – they pointed back to the date of the Nikon I rangefinder. And when they did do them, they were reputed to have lost Nikon money, something they’re probably very reticent to do now that the market has declined so much.

      The last special edition they did was the SP2005 “Nikon Eye Candy” for which they produced 2500 units and was sold in Japan only.

      In 2000, they produced the S3 Year 2000 black (2000 units), the S3 Year 2000 limited edition (8000 units) and the Fm2n Year of Dragon Millennium edition (2000 units).

      There was an F5 50th Anniversary edition in 2009 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Nikon F, but they made only 3000 units with only 300 available in the U.S.

      And there were a few other special editions before that. But if Nikon was going to do anything valuable, I think CES would have seen more than a slightly new edition of their yellow plastic bag. Of course, they can put out any new product and claim it’s to celebrate the 100th anniversary and put such a logo on the box, but they might also consider that to be a negative for younger buyers.

      • Alphaios

        yeah but the plastic bag indicates that they do base their anniversary also on 1917.

        Well if they “only” come up with some limited or special edition of something, I might switch to Fuji…
        Sorry but I’ve been waiting quite some time now for them to implement some features that I’m desperately missing, which other brands offer…

      • Max

        I agree. Most likely we will just see a replacement for d750 or D810, or maybe both.

      • Thom Hogan

        What I hear is different: they wanted something very special for the 100th. The problem is that they can’t very well do that with a special Stepper ;~).

        I think you’re going to see 100th anniversary products out of both Nikon Imaging and Nikon Vision (the binoc/optics group). And I don’t think they’ll be special limited edition things, either.

        • ZoetMB

          If all they do is stick “100th Anniversary” on the D7300, which will be a very slight increment of the D7200 (or the D820 or the D760), then that’s meaningless, IMO.

          It either needs to be a really cool version of a new Df, a digital version of the S2 or SP (essentially competition for the Leica MP or SL, although I suppose they can do it without video or live view and make it equivalent to the M-D) or something entirely new, like a removable lens mirrorless in a totally new design. Or, it could be an MF camera, but in spite of the occasional rumors, I don’t believe Nikon is going there.

          Or maybe it’s none of those things and they work with some publisher to put out a coffee table book, although there are already a number of books that cover various histories of Nikon.

          • Thom Hogan

            The discussion I’m aware of in Tokyo was for an entirely new camera for the 100th anniversary. I won’t say more, but what I heard would probably be a surprise to most Nikon users. Probably provoke hundreds more debate threads ;~).

            • Thom, you have to at least give us a clue. A limited edition film camera?

            • Allan

              There is a lot of information in Thom’s comments. He has told us what the camera will not be. (The obvious potential cameras would not be a surprise.)

            • ZoetMB

              You mean they’re going to do a 3D version of a Cirkuit camera, but it folds up and fits in your pocket? Or is it the pinhole camera that does VR? Or a digital TLR called the “Nikollei” ? Or is it a gold plated Coolpix L31. No…it’s a new camera that automatically identifies faces and puts cat masks on them. It’s called the Nikon Pussy. No, wait. It’s the 100th Anniversary.

              It’s a new camera concept that handles the communications issues and enables direct access to social media sites and the internet so images can be sent directly from the camera to anyone and anywhere, quickly and securely, but in celebration of the 100th anniversary, it takes 100 steps to do so.

            • The possible options I see for the 100th anniversary:

              – new film or digital FM or F camera (maybe Df2, maybe a limited edition)

              – new film or digital S rangefinder (make it with Leica M mount and watch the Internet explode, maybe a limited edition)

              – Some kind of a retro camera with a fixed lens (like the L35 or similar)

              I can’t really think of any other possibility.

            • Not a high MP mirrorless body that will fit the newest Nikon mount lenses?

            • Full frame mirrorless with F mount will be tough to produce, but yet – this is another option. I just think that for their 100th anniversary they will go retro… unless they don’t 🙂

            • Michiel953

              Digital FM… sigh… Would, for me, depend on the sensor. Once you’re used to all that 36 Mp goodness, hard to take a step (or two) back, as with the Df.

              Nevertheless…

            • purenupe1

              Why a Lecica Mount?

            • Just because there are so many M lenses already available. If they release it with the original S mount, they have to create a whole new line of lenses from scratch, unless they make it a special limited edition and sell it as a kit with 2-3 lenses and do not continue it as a regular product in the future.

            • kahiri78

              If Nikon decided to make another retro camera, please make sure it will be at least as good looking as Fuji Xt-2, X-Pro 2 or Leicas. I can’t stand looking at the weird, tall and huge body of the Nikon DF. No wonder seeing many sell them used online with the reason being “not practical”.

              Nikon should realize that its not all about image quality anymore. Never underestimate the look of a camera! Make it as sexy looking as Leica Q and I’m in.

            • Eric Calabros

              For a company that makes stabilized rangefinders AND photo cameras, its a shame they miss an opportunity for mixing them together.
              They could make it CDAF mirrorless with assist: transferring the rangefinder data to a separate sensor. (for each AF point, a MEMS micromirror, perhaps).

    • Thom Hogan

      As with the others, I’m curious. HOW MANY new and interesting things does Nikon have to introduce, and HOW OFTEN?

      The D5/D500 and the lenses they introduced in 2016 are all fine by me. I don’t see another company launching better stuff. In terms of my work, those products were all big. Had the DLs shipped when they were supposed to, I’m pretty sure the 18-50mm would have been added to my list of things that impacted me significantly in 2016.

      Obviously, I’ve been pushing Nikon hard on being a FULLER camera company, and doing the right thing from bottom to top, and for the customer. In that respect, there are plenty of gaps they need to deal with. But still, I’d like to hear exactly what Nikon would need to do to change your mind. What is this big 100th anniversary thing that is so essential to your staying a Nikon customer?

      • tgdull

        If Nikon introduces a D5x with 40+ MP I will per-order it. I need a new pro line camera. The D810 is just lacking compered to the D5 and the D3x.

      • Alphaios

        Well since you ask, here is my quarrel with Nikon.

        Nikon (and Canon to some degree) is in many areas sort of stuck in the 90’s.

        I mean that although Nikon has definitely kept up with things like sensor capabilities (high ISO, DR, etc.) as well as with things like AF (at least PDAF, contrast is probably the worst in the market), they are really lacking in design functionality and usability!

        The thing that was most important in the Analog days was controlling the shutter speed and aperture, now in the digital age ISO has become THE third variable (and a really important one too)! So why is there no ISO dial for instance on virtually all DSLRs?? I don’t get it! I don’t need a Bracketing button or this key/lock button… what I DO NEED is an ISO dial, as changing the ISO is an option now a days, up until the d5/d500 I even could’t do it without two hands!!!

        Also why do we nee these bulky 90’s bodies??? why not something much smaller? still DSLR but smaller. Before you tell me that it is not possible due to the mirrorbox/prism etc. I call bull.. my old FULL FRAME Pentax MX is tiny really tiny. Now I get it has to be somewhat bigger due to the fact that there is whole sensor + display to accommodate not just a super thin layer of film BUT my D810 is just WAY TOO BIG!!!

        I want something with the size of the FE2 with all the relevant dials shutter speed, ISO and instead of making it bulky like the current df make the protruding part (where the mount sits) a universal aperture ring maybe? Use it smart!

        Here is the reason why I’m saying all this… because you might be thinking well all nice and good but you don’t “need” it, because to you a camera is a “tool” nothing more.

        Well guess what! the decline in camera sales has not taking place with that customer segment!! It’s not the professionals that are buying less!! It’s all the regular consumers who don’t see the point as the smartphone is “good enough”, this why you have to make using a camera not about being a tool!! It shouldn’t only be about the ISO, the Megapixels, the AF etc… Again the smartphone to most IS GOOD ENOUGH!! It has to be about fun and joy!! this is the only way people will buy it and take it with them!! People want to buy a CAMERA not a tool to achieve the most noise free image…

        If Nikon doesn’t get that soon (like Fuji has) they will go down or end up with a very small niche market of people who only do this professionally and who only care about the end results not about the process…

        So to answer your question it really isn’t about how often they release something, it’s about the quality (again not the quality as a tool, but as a product bringing joy and to people fulfilling customer needs) of the released product.

        • Spy Black

          “Also why do we nee these bulky 90’s bodies???”

          It’s amazing how many people want that. The reasoning is typically some questionable (to me) comment about their hands being too big for the “smaller” bodies, of which they’re typically referring to the likes of a D750 or D610!

          By this perception of theirs, if I find my D600 to be a perfect size (which I do), then I couldn’t possibly ever work with my Panasonic GM5, and if you’re not familiar with the Panasonic, have a look below.

          So I question the entire “large hands” argument.
          http://camerasize.com/compare/#570,378

          • Alphaios

            yeah I totally get big bodies, but do all of them have to be so big? (talking fullframe DSLR here)

            Or is there also the possibility of a Nikon with sony a7 series size body with a protruding generic aperture ring at the mount (to make up for the flange distance)?

        • Thom Hogan

          I, for one, don’t want an ISO dial. The current ISO button+wheel is perfectly fine by me. A few tweaks to the AutoISO system would be welcome, I suppose.

          But ISO is not about exposure (exposure = light filtered by aperture filtered by shutter speed). ISO is about a quality bar, and I don’t want to be madly running around trying to change my quality with every image I take. Moreover, in Nikon’s implementation of the “ISO dial” (on the Df), the dial lies to you.

          I’ve been advocating smaller DSLRs for quite some time. I even shared a survey with Nikon executives on the demand for something smaller than the current Dxxx models but with similar capabilities.

          That said, too much smaller starts to compromise the mass equation. Yes, I know most of you think that IS will fix all that ails with not having enough mass. But in my opinion, no. As you move out of the wide angle range you start to need mass to hold the subject framing correctly. Try using a Nikon J6 with the 70-300mm VR on the sidelines of a sporting event, for instance. Holding the subject where you want it in the frame gets quite problematic due to no mass.

          So “all cameras should be small” is not a mantra that I’d like Nikon to follow. “Some cameras should be smaller” is.

          Despite what you say, professional sales are down. For one simple reason: the number of organizations buying professional gear is down. The days of big agencies and news organizations buying hundreds of new units every couple of years is gone. As image sales revenue for most of us went down, we had to scramble to find alternative sources of income, and we adjusted our buying downwards, too.

          The D4 generation of pro bodies sold less than the D3 generation. I know a lot of pros still using their D3s and D3x.

          And for what it’s worth: the smartphone is a tool. It happens to be a Swiss Army Knife sort of tool, but it’s still a tool. So I can’t follow your logic in the paragraphs where you try to say it isn’t and that people don’t need tools.

          Anyone reading my sites knows that I believe Nikon has fumbled the biggest opportunity they’ve had in my lifetime. They continue to do some things well, but they simply are missing far too many things, and much of those things they’d learn by being closer to their customers.

          • Alphaios

            well sorry to criticize you here, but I get the feeling that you understand a whole lot about professional photography and about the pro market, but rather little about the consumer market and the needs of the average consumer.

            Well first, I never actually said that a smartphone is not a tool or couldn’t be a tool, but rather that average CONSUMER that takes pictures with the smartphones (again not a photography enthusiast/professional who deliberately chooses to use a smartphone for something, but rather the other 98% of the people) don’t spend all day worrying about Megapixels, ISO performance, or whether the white balance is 100% accurate.

            However, this is what Nikon seems to think. They view it from a more technical point of view, now that might please people like yourself, as you also probably primarily view the camera as a tool as well. But my whole point is that now that smartphones have become “good enough” for most people, they point of hauling around an additional heavy item with you, will not be about a more noise free image. I know this is hard to understand for some, especially most gear heads here, but it will be about the experience of photography. It is paramount to not forget that your needs aren’t the needs of the whole market.

            Why do you think analog is experience a revival? because of the more advanced metering systems? The better low light performance? To most consumers (again NOT professional or enthusiasts) this is already good enough with their smartphone they really don’t care too much about it (not saying that they don’t care at all, but it’s not the most essential part of the decision). It’s about the experience of using a product. This is where Nikon falls short tremendously, not so much in the technical aspects… and this is why Fuji is actually doing comparatively good in the industry. Because they don’t sell tools they sell cameras (again this DOES NOT mean a fuji camera cannot be used as a tool, hope you get what I mean).

            To sum it up Nikon needs to start selling an experience rather than a tool, if they want those lost d3xxx and d5xxx or even d7xxx and d6xx customers back, who don’t want to upgrade as they’d basically be getting the same product again. They need to bring the fun back to the purchase of new cameras, I mean why on earth would I buy a d5600 if I have a d5200… what’s the point?

            The problem Nikon has (in that segment) won’t be fixed with better technical solutions, but with better marketing and even more importantly better product development that actually spikes a new fresh interest in former customers through product experience. If they don’t get it, they will end up in a niche for those who only do professional work, and there they won’t make enough money to keep up with RD (Hasselblad’s fate).

            • Thom Hogan

              The average consumer that takes photos with smartphones simply doesn’t need anything other than the smartphone, simple as that.

              What’s happened is that the range between true Joe Average consumer and Serious Enthusiast to Pro customer has collapsed to almost nothing. In the film era we had cardboard boxes that took pictures at the Joe Average consumer end. There was plenty of room above that for a variety of consumer cameras that added quality and sophistication in higher and higher levels.

              With smartphones now occupying the bottom end, they’re already better than early digital compacts were and nibbling at the low end of ILC. I first outlined that this was going to happen back in 2008, and it’s pretty much proven true. Now that photos are mostly shared via the Internet, the standards for quality also have a very, very low bar (basically 2mp).

              I don’t disagree with your “putting the fun back” comment, but I fail to see how adding an ISO dial instead of the current button+dial does that. If you had argued “putting the simplicity back” I might understand your argument, but then I’d point out that Auto ISO does that better (and could be tuned even better than it is).

              The whole “analog” argument is a faux one in my book. A lot of that is faddish. I also think you mean “retro,” not analog. Technically, an ISO dial is not an “analog” dial.

              I absolutely agree that you don’t fix the problems with Nikon (or the entire camera industry) solely with technology. As I’ve written over and over again, you need to solve user problems. Indeed, you need to solve problems that users weren’t always aware that they had.

            • Alphaios

              Well I guess we can leave it at that. But no I DID mean Analog (=Film) not retro, which is experiencing a revival especially among the young. why do you think Kodak revived their Ektachrome film?

              The main reason is that people want the feeling of an actual camera back! Not a fully automated, “does it all”, perfect out of the box photographic tool…

              Manufacturers should shift the argument away from mere functions and features to user experience, that is my whole point.

            • Thom Hogan

              Analog sales are a small pittance compared to digital. Digital photography is niche. Analog photography as you’re thinking of it is a very small niche in a niche.

              There is an analog type of photography that sells decently: it’s the instant photo stuff. Why? Because of instant “sharing” of images. The camera companies are daft. They simply don’t understand the forces that control imaging these days.

          • Verco

            Thom – I love and agree with most of your thought pieces on Nikon and the industry. However it’s very obvious that your coming from only a sports/ newspaper/ wildlife context.

            As a commercial photographer I promise you an ISO dial would absolutely be amazing. I exclusively shoot manual mode as does everyone else in this (or similar) field.

            Anyway let me know if you would ever like some context into requirements & preferences of commercial & portrait photographers.

            • Thom Hogan

              You’re going to have to describe to me how an ISO dial in commercial photography is “amazing.” Again, compared to button+dial, which is just as accessible (in fact, more so because you can do it without taking an eye from the viewfinder).

            • Verco

              See that’s the thing – I do have to take the camera away from my face to change ISO currently. Whereas I’ve been using manual so long that I can with 90% accuracy get a correct exposure just by looking at how the light has changed.
              With an ISO dial there will be one scroll wheel for shutter, one for aperture, one for ISO.

              You can’t deny that the only reason we don’t have an ISO dial is because in the film days you would set it based on the film. The defence of “button + existing dial” is purely for the status quo.

              Otherwise if you were to follow the logic that “button+dial” was fine then we might as well get rid of another one of the dials and have two buttons + one dial. Or even move the aperture control to the button as you usually change it less than ISO?

              Logically if we accept the Exposure TRIangle, it follows that we would have an individual control for each. The lack of dial for ISO is a leftover from film days.

              See: phase XF has extra dial for ISO. Unfortunately I’m not interested in buying into an overpriced, buggy system.

            • Thom Hogan

              No, you’re missing a critical point with the Nikon DSLR design: it has two opposing dials that allow you to not take your finger off the shutter release. Adding a third dial means that you’re now moving your hands and fingers around on your camera more. And why if we have a dial for ISO wouldn’t we also have a dial for exposure compensation? Now we’re at four dials,

              There’s a critical balance point in design that you try to reach. One could simply put a dial for everything, obviously. That would be absolute chaos for a shooter.

              In design it’s called “control overload.” You assign more than one thing to a particular control, either contextually or directly. The Nikon pro DSLRs have examples of both.

              The thing that Nikon hasn’t explored is the “dial as button” approach. A depressed dial does one thing, a not depressed dial does a different thing. But that’s a tricky control to get right, as Fujifilm, Panasonic, and a few others that tried it have found out.

              The current DSLR design is very good, IMHO. My hand position doesn’t change in setting aperture, shutter speed, ISO, or exposure compensation. And that’s done with two dials and two buttons.

            • Verco

              I agree with you on one point – an exposure compensation dial would be great for a lot of users (primarily D500 users)
              But why can’t we then have a programmable third dial? I’m sure it would only take an afternoon to program in and would give both an ISO dial and an exposure comp dial based on your preference.

              Although I’m not buying “design overload” for a third dial. the Phase XF has one. The Fuji GFX has retro dials and dslr dials (programmable). You could easily fit a third dial above the shutter button, or even as a wheel on the back of the body (like canon)

            • Thom Hogan

              One more thing: people keep talking about the “exposure triangle.” It’s not a triangle. Exposure = light filtered by aperture filtered by shutter speed. That’s it. ISO is not an exposure control.

              JPEG shooters tend to think of ISO as an “exposure” control, but it’s really a brightness control.

            • Tony Beach

              It is a triangle though: Shutter speed, aperture, and light (not ISO).

            • Verco

              This is a nice bit of technical semantics but doesn’t change the reality that you need to change ISO to get a correctly exposed image. I can’t shoot in a dark room at ISO 100 and recover that in post (as great as nikon’s dynamic range is)

        • Tony Beach

          What you want from Nikon then is a toy to play with.

          • Alphaios

            No what I’d like to see from Nikon is a strategy to survive in a hostile environment, whereas people like you think that it is just about fulfilling your particular needs and that will solve all problems.

            • Tony Beach

              You’re the one who says if Nikon doesn’t do “something big” for their 100th anniversary that you will switch brands, and for no other reason than that really other than your D810 is “way too big” which makes your previous comment very ironic. Frankly, I wouldn’t want my D800 to be any smaller than it is when I have my 70-200/2.8 VR lens attached to it, and I also like its size when I have my 105/2 DC attached to it too.

              Sure Nikon can do more, and should, I’m just finding your reason for wanting to switch brands to be irrational.

    • The new 105 F1.4 is pretty awesome and both Sigma and Tamron are producing first rate lenses in Nikon mount.

  • To bad I won’t be able to smell all of those brand plastic lenses from this post….liikkkkee tthhhee sssmmeelll of new stuff…

  • That’s too bad. I’ve been looking forward to the DL 18-50 for a while now because it seems like a real bargain compared to the native wide options on Sony. It’s only $50 more than the 15mm f/4.5 Voigtlander and 20mm f/2 Tokina, and much cheaper than the 16-35, 18mm Batis, or 21mm Loxia. Not only that, but it would be a separate camera in my bag so I don’t have to worry about fooling with lenses when I want to shoot something wide.

  • edmitc

    One of the photos appears to show two Nikon 1 J5s on the table. At least its alive, barely.

    If there are no new Nikon 1 product announcements by the February Japan photo show, then what? Gone? Probably.

    Nikon’s public messaging is confusing and scares potential buyers away. Wish they would give some thought to their PR problem.

  • Sean Parchem

    DL =Unnicorn. So Nikon can I please get an updated coolpix A, w PDAF? Maybe an updated sensor from the D500 and a slighly faster lens please. I’ll even take the same old 2.8 lens. Then Nikon can have my money. I know they…… I think they could do that somewhat easily (Thom H, feel free to chime in on that or if I missed it on your site let me know) And speaking of the Sony RX100, I have the M3 and I love being able to carry it with me everywhere. Skiing, hiking or biking, it’s a great little camera for when I don’t want to lug all my nikon gear around. Nikon, I’m ready for my new Cool pix A.

  • Nikon Rumors, brought to you by the Sony A7Rii

    …but in all seriousness, how you like the A7Rii? And that 24-70? How’s focus and overall performance vs. the D810?

    • pjpo

      low light focus isn’t as good as my D800. Focus using anything smaller than f/8 is bad (f/10+). Tracking is good, but it is tricky to use selective AF points. Eye AF is cool as are AF points beyond that of Nikon’s. Even better on a crop sensor where the points basically fill the whole frame.

      • Eye AF = tracks your eye? Like the old Canon Elan 7?

        • pjpo

          I’m not sure about how it works for the Canon, but there are plenty of places you can search and see how the A7Rii eye focus tracking works. It is quite cool, but it only works with native lenses. I don’t get the benefit of it when shooting portraits with a Sony adapter and Tamron 90mm, but it works great with my Zeiss 55mm.

    • No, no, no – those pictures were sent by a reader, sorry if this was not clear in my post. I do not own a Sony product (except a TV). I used to own the Sony RX1 (I loved it), but it is long gone.

  • pjpo

    Just adding to the UGH of no news. In this case, no news is bad news. Sweeping it under the rug and acting like they never even announced it. If it were coming SOON, they would have had them there. Move along everybody, there’s nothing to see here. Sure enough, the DL18-50 unicorn was too good to be true. I’ll keep my preorder just in case though.

  • Carleton Foxx

    Why do we put up with this abuse from these people? We’re like POWs with Stockholm syndrome, we’ve fallen in love with our captors even though there are half a dozen other camera companies that would be happy to take our money. I hate myself

    • Semaphore

      Totally not being over dramatic about some compacts.

  • MonkeySpanner

    They seem to be having a problem packing all the tech in there. Nikon – don’t worry about 4K – if we wanted 4K – we would already be buying a Panasonic. Just give us a good body with fast AF and a stellar lens – that will do.

    • Eric Wi

      Mistaken if the d7xxx had it and a touchscreen I upgrade my d5300 right away. I like the d500 but don’t have the budget and is a bit more than I need. Outside if that I would have to replace lenses, flashes, triggers, etc.

  • jmb2560

    Frankly speaking, I’m still trying to understand what’s so exciting about the DL. If Nikon is assigning precious engineering resources to something more innovative or valuable, so be it. Having said that, I agree that they have a product marketing issue (among other things…) that needs to be fixed.

  • Max

    The prism in that D5 is a big chunk of glass

  • Ansiiboii

    there is saying “out of sigh out of mind”… I say “out of corporate marketing hype campaing – out to the trash”

  • Max

    Off topic, but I just noticed that after the Wireless Mobile Utility update, it no longer works on my D5300. Haven’t checked the D7100 yet

    • Sawyerspadre

      Did they issue a D5300 firmware update to go with it?

  • stormwatch

    Honestly, GH5 wipes anything from Nikon and Canon (except the top top models) in terms of photo and video department. I don’t know what Nikon can do against it….

    • silmasan

      Video yes, but photo? Ha ha ha… just look at the samples. Compare to similarly priced Nikon body like–Oh damn meant to say D500 but there’s a D750 in that price bracket…

    • I agree on the video, but in the photo – no way.

      • stormwatch

        🙂 Just wait when the tests are in, and much better when you start geting some real life samples from customers.

    • D700s

      You should switch immediately.

      • stormwatch

        Already did. My business is 90% videography and 10% photography.

        • D700s

          Then why are you on NR? Buyers remorse? Trying to convince others so you feel better about your switch? Or, do you think we are all crazy because we won’t follow your logic? If you are making a comfortable living with your GH5 then good onya. I guess manufacturers should only cater to those making a living with cameras. That would probably cut 80% of their sales. Maybe, just maybe that’s why they don’t.

          • stormwatch

            🙂 I also still have a Nikon, but I’m dissapointed more and more as the time goes by, some of us are not bird catchers , but people who use cameras as a real tools. And there is not really need for lecturing me on what should I do or what I should not :-).

            • D700s

              Sorry, I don’t understand the “real tools” bit in your comment. Not lecturing you anymore than you are lecturing all of us on you decision. To your comment “all of us are not bird catchers” I’ll say most of us are not videographers being paid for work. We are probably the larger part of the buying community.

            • stormwatch

              Your problem is that you somehow “figured” that I’m here to lecture all of you. I do not try to lecture no one, I just tell my experience. Come on dear photographers, don’t be so sensitive about other people’s experiences that you don’t like. That is why I’m so happy to be a videographer, we know to joke, and if joke goes on our account , we usually laugh as twice as hard. Be cheerful, not having a professional integrated Speed light on D500 is not such a bad thing.

    • Eric Wi

      The GH5 is really nice but it is still m43 it will pick up a lot more noise than FF and even APSC in low light. The video is the best available for consumer devices.

  • Richard Haw

    low demand, that’s why. When I tried them last year at CP+ I wasn’t at all impressed by it especially for the asking price.

  • Marc P.

    Update: our german Seller “Cyberport” says that the Nikon DL Series would be estimated being avialable on 9th March, but take this with a grain of salt…i don’t believe this date anyway. 🙂

    • Captain Megaton

      At this point is hardly matters anymore outside of academic interest: whether it was fixed in one long go-round or if the first fix was still broken and they had to fix it again. The longer it takes the more likely it took two complete tries.

  • Thylmuc

    here’s starting to loose faith that Nikon will come up with something retro-spectacular for their 100th 🙁

    • Michiel953

      It’s January 7. Do you know what the anniversary day is? It’s not January 7.

      • Thylmuc

        The presentation at CES looks rather depressing. The whole state of Nikon at present is not that of a vibrant, innovating company. I wonder if they decided to spend a significant amount of money on developping a prestige product that connects to their more glorious past. They may instead decide to focus their limited ressources on the future and survival of the company.

        • Michiel953

          I admire your infinite insight.

    • Fly Moon

      Man, it’s only 7 days out of 365!! Give them a break!

    • Allen_Wentz

      Personally I do not want Nikon wasting effort just for “something retro-spectacular for their 100th” (even though I think they unfortunately will).

      This is after all 2017; I would prefer they instead use those resources to learn and apply consumer software to Nikon cameras. If they ever make it work really well one product could be called SnapBridge.

  • Wolf33d

    Is Nikon still a camera manufacturer? Must have missed something….

  • What is wrong with Nikon’s short and macro lenses? What are you getting from Sony that you cannot get from Nikon? You need a high resolution camera? Have you tried the D810? What’s wrong with it?

    • animalsbybarry

      Nothing is wrong with them , they are excellent lenses
      But I preffer a mirrorlesscamera with high resolution and high burst rate
      If Nikon builds the mirrorless camera I want it will be very easy to replace Sony’s short and macro lenses with Nikon’s very fine lenses

      As I said Sony has some glaring gaps in thier lens line, they have absolutely no long lenses…. everyone has short lenses

      I could consolidate to a single system either if Nikon builds the camera I want or Sony builds the lenses I want

      If Nikon waits too long to build thier mirrorless camera …. those like myself will buy the system that fills thier gaps sooner

      Nikon has recently patented an exciting two layer dual pixel sensor with 2 dual pixel layers and six color pixels on 2 layers

      This sensor would be great for a new high resolution high burst rate mirrorless camera

      My point being that Nikon should build this camera ASAP because neither time nor their competition are standing still waiting for Nikon

      • Are you hiking few miles every day to take your photos? What’s wrong with the D810? Is there anything you cannot do with the D810? I am not trying to be an a**hole, I am just curious.

    • animalsbybarry

      P.S.
      I have the D810
      It is a good camera but slow burst rate… also I prefer EVF because you can see what the picture will look like rather than what the lens sees
      Sony has both focus peaking and focus magnification which make manual focus much easier
      I am excited about the D500 and if nothing better comes along may get one ….but it is only 20mp
      If this same camera with the same specs had 36mp I would already have bought one

      • Ok, you are right about the fps. You are one of the few people that like EVF better than OVF. Isn’t the D810 live view good enough for what you are trying to achieve?

        • ZoetMB

          I don’t buy the fps argument. Are people making movies and picking frames or shooting stills? On the very rare occasions when I shoot at high FPS, I even get eye blinks in more than one frame and there’s more of a chance that the camera won’t find focus. I really don’t see why anyone needs anything faster, but I’ve also never understood the method of photography where one machine guns the shutter release, especially if one is a pro: who wants to sort through thousands of images from a single shoot – you can’t make money that way.

          • animalsbybarry

            Frame rate is important for action such as wildlife, birds in flight, sports etc
            For more stationary or slowly moving subjects it is not important

            • also, if I remember correctly the a7 is not much faster than the D810 in terms of fps

            • animalsbybarry

              I expect the next generation to improve
              But as I have said there are many legitimate arguments for mirrorless or DSLR
              Some people will prefer each and some will prefer both

              All of which supports my suggestion that Nikon should have both

            • I agree, Nikon should have both and I think they will eventually.

          • Max

            What about rugby or soccer?

          • Allen_Wentz

            Your comment made sense in the old days, and I have made the same comment. However today’s AF and Expeed make new creative opportunities available to photogs when hardware allows high fps rates.

          • D700s

            Not everyone is making money. I understand your argument if your genre doesn’t include action or sports photography but if that is a significant portion of your shooting then HFPS can and does often make a difference. As small as that segment may be it’s still relevant to those that do it. Just because you don’t like to navigate through images doesn’t mean others don’t enjoy it. I don’t shoot for money and do enjoy looking at the difference between captures in the burst mode. To each his own and I’m glad Nikon still caters to my fun.

        • animalsbybarry

          Yes Nikon has live view which could be used as an argument for DSLR
          Byut live view falls far short of a good mirrorless system which can be used as an argument against
          A significant portion of users preffer mirrorless and Nikon should not wait to include a high end mirrorless camera in thier lineup
          To delay this is a mistake

          • “A significant portion of users prefer mirrorless” is just your own opinion, I have not seen any facts to support that. I still think Nikon should have a competetive mirrorless solution.

            • animalsbybarry

              Look at E mount sales

            • Where? The last time Thom did the math a few months ago, Nikon was selling as much as all mirrorless cameras combined. If you have valid data to proof him otherwise, please post the link (without made up fake news stories please).

            • animalsbybarry

              Mirrorless is a significant but more importantly growing marked share
              In planning their product line Nikon needs to be concerned with future sales
              They need an F mount compatable mirrorless syste in addition to SLR

            • Even this is not true, both DSLR and mirrorless sales are falling almost at the same rate.

            • animalsbybarry

              You are drastically underestimating Nikon
              Nikon has a system and lenses that the other mirrorless competition cannot match
              Make a mirrorless to fit this system and it will sell
              Wait for Sony to fill the gaps in thier lens lineup and improve thier system weaknesses and establishing Nikon mirrorless will become increasingly difficult
              I am not suggesting changing Nikon’s product line but adding to it
              There is still also a DSLR market and I do not suggest ignoring that market

            • this is the big question: if Nikon makes the best mirrorless system, will they have enough sales to justify the r&d and make a profit? The answer seems to be no based on what we have seen so far.

            • Michiel953

              Your insight in the market is staggering(ly ignorant of the facts).

        • Max

          But the A7R, which is Sony’s high res camera and which I assume Barry is talking about, also only shoots 5fps. Same as the d810

          • yes exactly, I mentioned that in my other comment

      • Michiel953

        Did Nikon lie about the D810’s burst rate? Did it say 10 fps on the box, but it truned out to be no more than 4ps?

        Did it say, somewhere on the box, “EVF”?

        You just keep whining and whining. Do they like you on SAR?

        • animalsbybarry

          I have not accused anyone of luring
          I have answered the questions asked to me about what I like or dislike about mirrorless vs DSLR cameras

          If you read the string of comments you will see that I have clearly stated that there are valid arguments for both sides and that Nikon should add a mirrorless camera to thier product line, NOT eliminate DSLRs

          Unless I blindly say Nikon is perfect I will upset some Nikon users
          Unless I blindly say Sony is perfect I will upset some Sony users
          But neither is true and I would rather suggest what they can do better than worry about keeping everyone who reads my comments happy

        • Michiel953

          P.s.: D500 only 20Mp? It’s a smaller sensor than the D810, are you aware of that?
          Maybe you should look at pixelsize/-density.

  • bgbs

    The DL is the Nikon’s special 100 anniversary product.

  • ZoetMB

    I don’t really care about the DL line, but one does have to wonder what went wrong. Did the parts not fit together? Was their a major design flaw? Does it not focus? Is it the software? Is the camera setting itself on fire? Are the sensors not available? Is it being built by a third party and they went out of business? Are they on a container ship and being held for ransom? What???

    • Allan

      LOL

    • MonkeySpanner

      Funny – but I suspect they are trying to cram some high bitrate 4k mode in there.

    • AYWY

      Me thinks maybe after the 1 year delay and the recent Nikon re-org, maybe someone said, “guys this could be irrelevant by the time we release. We need to re-think, or scrap them altogether.”

    • Eyediaz

      think the Nikon USA techs told me because the earthquake in Japan last year had a set back for the sensors in the DL’s

  • Not every patent you see out there turns into a real product. We just have to wait and see.

  • Dino Brusco

    Pls Nikon consider (and update/upgrade) the DL cameras instead of the usual D3xxx / D5xxx whose last real useful camera stopped by the D5300.

    • MonkeySpanner

      DL not even released yet – and you want an upgrade?

      • Allen_Wentz

        I think what Dino means is that DL has been vaporware for so long it requires an update before going live.

  • T N Args

    Time for the Mk2 models! Or, more seriously, hope they haven’t wasted the opportunity and have fine-tuned the firmware and maybe even improved a couple of the firmware-driven specs.

  • Michiel953

    One thing is clear. You have a problem.

  • MonkeySpanner

    It seems to me that if you are shooting a long lens the great likelihood is that you are shooting something moving fast and also the lens is probably big. So, DSLR AF systems would be an advantage and since the lens is big, no size advantage to mirrorless. So – why would Sony make big long lenses for e- mount? I don’t see telephoto as a strong point of mirrorless.

    • MonkeySpanner

      I think Sony is right in their assessment that these small mirrorless bodies are much better suited to short fl lenses.

    • animalsbybarry

      Unlike some people I do not consider compact size as one of the advantages of mirrorless
      A shorter camera body means longer lense… no gain
      Do I would like to see the new mirrorless be F mount or at least fully compatable with F mount
      If Nikon does decide on a shorter mount I would preffer to see them use E mount with a fully functional F mount to E mount adapter

  • I am sure your comment was very well accepted by the Sony fans 🙂

  • Michiel953

    Yet you keep on whining about a camera you bought while being fully awake?

  • mrdiscover

    The bigger story is Nikon’s 100th birthday this month, coupled with the epic release of the new Df camera. It will be unprecedented and worthy of the biggest celebration in Nikon’s storied history.

    • Michiel953

      Bigger story? Wikipedia says July 25, 1917 but hey, what do they know.

      Maybe I should change the date to January 1917, so you can keep on promoting the ‘bigger story’.

    • tap0

      The birthday is June.

      • Michiel953

        July 25, see below or Wikipedia.

      • Allen_Wentz

        Heck, if Christians can move their prophet’s birthday to take advantage of the Winter Solstice, Nikon too can make their birthday fit marketing exigencies.

        • Michiel953

          The best marketing strategy is to keep the ‘official’ date. Expect a lot of teasers leading up to that day, a la Df.

  • D700s

    The argument over dslr and mirrorless size/weight concerns me. Are we becoming so weak and feeble that we can’t carry or hold a dslr now. Being retired military I’ve been treated to some very uncomfortable loads but never considered a camera to be that big of a burden. Well, at least not enough to whine incessantly. Yes, if you are in the 60-90 year old community weight may be a consideration. So, is that the major segment of photographers?

    • Michiel953

      64. D810 with 1.4 primes and a wriststrap. Wouldn’t want it hanging off my neck.

      • D700s

        That’s why I use a Black Rapids strap. More comfortable than hanging around my neck and leaves my hands free when I need both. I guess when I’m in my 60s (not that far away) I may want something different but I’m hoping I’m not one to complain about what’s available. By the way, we are the minority now. The aged. It’s a young folks world now. Manufacturers are going to move to where the sales are. I think Nikon is doing just fine.

        • Michiel953

          I have the camera in my hand or in a messenger style bag, strap across my chest. It’s allright, although three 600 grs primes do make the bag heavy.

    • Aldo

      For me it is about convenience and being able to always carry a camera for family photos… much like we carry cellphones. It’s not that I can’t carry my pro body… but with kids and other things that ‘must’ be hauled along the pro camera ends up at home most of the time.

    • Verco

      Hahaha ahh the classic “toughen up” reactionary approach to progression

  • Captain Megaton

    I doubt not having a native FE mount supertelephoto keeps either Sony or A7 users up at night.

    • animalsbybarry

      Sony fans on thier forums are disproportionately hollering for lots more short lenses and disproportionately not hollering for supertelephoto lenses
      That is however only because those who need long lenses are out of necessity Canon and Nikon users and therefore not on Sony forums
      Many users need lond lenses and want to be able to use them on mirrorlesss cameras
      Those users will go to Sony if they build long lenses first or Nikon if they build a large mirrorless camera first

      Another possibility involves two recent Nikon patents
      The new Nikon 2 layer sensor cold possibly be built in 1″ 40mp with the same pixel size as the current 20mp Nikon one sensor

      Nikon has also recently patented a 7.5-600mm f2.8-6.3 lens specifically for 1″ sensor ( 21-1630mm equivelent)

      Put the two together either as a 1″ sensor superzoom or a Nikon One and WOW !!!

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